worker actions
- Thread starter boogaboo
- Start date
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
were there changes in worker actions in C3C, or do we "just donno"?
I don't know any aspects absolutely, but I'm pretty sure chopping forests has reduced in time in conquests. Don't know about any other changes. I think, but I'm not positive, that I can chop a forest in one turn with demo/replaceable/non-ind by using just one worker and one slave (which seems to imply 4/3, 8/3 for turn times). For some reason though, lately I only wind up here when wasting time at work, so I can't verify anything right now.
Denarr
Warlord
This is what I have at the moment. This is for Civ III Gold 1.27f.
Place Order Time
Despotism
Hills Road 3
Hills Mine 6/12
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 2
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
Place Order Time
Despotism
Hills Road 3
Hills Mine 6/12
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 2
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
I had a mistake in the NON-rounding file, so I deleted the link from there, and I give it here to the right file.
Denarr - your data is ok from my side.
I think I will treat the table as it is now, and try to guess how the adding of fractions work..
Denarr - your data is ok from my side.
I think I will treat the table as it is now, and try to guess how the adding of fractions work..
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
I just looked into the calculator, my French amigo JMK, and I got 1 error and one new real important question.
The error is that "Clear Jungle" is set to 8 instead of 2.667 (I checked).
The question I have is that I saw you (somehow) rounded both ways, and.. it is correct!
How can they live together??
* road on a jungle (indest, worker, starting techs/govt) is 4.5 and rounded to 5.
* road on grass (indust, worker, dem, R.P) is 0.5 and rounded to 0.
I know they are both true, but what's the rounding issue??
Perhaps only up to a certain number it is rounded down?
It destroys the principles of my table all completely..
The error is that "Clear Jungle" is set to 8 instead of 2.667 (I checked).
The question I have is that I saw you (somehow) rounded both ways, and.. it is correct!
How can they live together??
* road on a jungle (indest, worker, starting techs/govt) is 4.5 and rounded to 5.
* road on grass (indust, worker, dem, R.P) is 0.5 and rounded to 0.
I know they are both true, but what's the rounding issue??
Perhaps only up to a certain number it is rounded down?
It destroys the principles of my table all completely..
Thank you for bringing me these mistakes:
The error is that "Clear Jungle" is set to 8 instead of 2.667 (I checked).
you are right! Corrected.
* road on a jungle (indest, worker, starting techs/govt) is 4.5 and rounded to 5.
* road on grass (indust, worker, dem, R.P) is 0.5 and rounded to 0.
I think I understood the rounding issue.
Appreciate your comments.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Worker_Turns3.zip
The error is that "Clear Jungle" is set to 8 instead of 2.667 (I checked).
you are right! Corrected.
* road on a jungle (indest, worker, starting techs/govt) is 4.5 and rounded to 5.
* road on grass (indust, worker, dem, R.P) is 0.5 and rounded to 0.
I think I understood the rounding issue.
Appreciate your comments.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Worker_Turns3.zip
Denarr
Warlord
Update:
Place Order Time
Despotism
Hills Road 3/6
Hills Mine 6/12
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 2/3
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
Mtn. Road /9
Mtn. Mine /18
Mtn. Outpost /2
Anarchy
Hills Mine 12/
Hills Outpost 1/
Grass Road 3/6
Grass Mine 6/12
Grass Irr. 4/8
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 6/
Forest Chop 10/20
Republic
Grass Road 2/3
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
Should post each update, edit this post as I have new updates, or is this enough to go on, even without the Democracy and Rubber data?
Obviously, I haven't gathered comprehensive data for this, but the gist should be fairly apparent.
Place Order Time
Despotism
Hills Road 3/6
Hills Mine 6/12
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 2/3
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
Mtn. Road /9
Mtn. Mine /18
Mtn. Outpost /2
Anarchy
Hills Mine 12/
Hills Outpost 1/
Grass Road 3/6
Grass Mine 6/12
Grass Irr. 4/8
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 6/
Forest Chop 10/20
Republic
Grass Road 2/3
Grass Mine 3/6
Grass Irr. 2/4
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 3/6
Forest Chop 5/10
Should post each update, edit this post as I have new updates, or is this enough to go on, even without the Democracy and Rubber data?
Obviously, I haven't gathered comprehensive data for this, but the gist should be fairly apparent.
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
JMK, great to know the improvement*terrain thing (I got it earlier from you), I originally built only on the last parameters.
The rounding issue is a problem, since, you somehow got it correct - I think the 0.5 is rounded to 0 and 4.5 to 5.
This means there is something I/we DON'T understand..
Denarr, all we need is some data on democracy and/or Per.P.
Not entire sheets.. don't work so hard, just examples will do.
The rounding issue is a problem, since, you somehow got it correct - I think the 0.5 is rounded to 0 and 4.5 to 5.
This means there is something I/we DON'T understand..
Denarr, all we need is some data on democracy and/or Per.P.
Not entire sheets.. don't work so hard, just examples will do.
Denarr
Warlord
Per.P.? What's that?
OK, I'll wait 'til I get to democracy. And I should have said Replaceable Parts, not Rubber.
Ohh...Rep.P.? Got it.
OK, I'll wait 'til I get to democracy. And I should have said Replaceable Parts, not Rubber.
Ohh...Rep.P.? Got it.
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
There is no rounding.
To complete a task, you need to do the entire work. If you do more, for instance because your Worker works 2 steps a turn and the work is an uneven amount of steps (like planting a forest which is 9 steps), the extra effort is lost.
(All of this is basic stuff, btw.)
Denarr
Warlord
Democracy
Place Order Time
Hills Road 2/4
Hills Mine 4/8
Hills Fort 6/11
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 1/2
Grass Mine 2/4
Grass Irr. 2/3
Grass Fort 3/6
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 2/4
Forest Chop 4/7
Forest Fort 6/11
Mtn. Road 3/
Mtn. Mine 6/12
Mtn. Fort 8/16
Mtn. Outpost 1/1
It would indeed appear that slaves always work at half the rate of workers.
Shall I post the Replaceable Parts, or is this proof enough?
Now to go edit an earlier post
Edited to update data.
Twice.
Place Order Time
Hills Road 2/4
Hills Mine 4/8
Hills Fort 6/11
Hills Outpost 1/1
Grass Road 1/2
Grass Mine 2/4
Grass Irr. 2/3
Grass Fort 3/6
Grass Outpost 1/1
Forest Road 2/4
Forest Chop 4/7
Forest Fort 6/11
Mtn. Road 3/
Mtn. Mine 6/12
Mtn. Fort 8/16
Mtn. Outpost 1/1
It would indeed appear that slaves always work at half the rate of workers.
Shall I post the Replaceable Parts, or is this proof enough?
Now to go edit an earlier post
Edited to update data.
Twice.
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
@Ribannah, you have set me correct - 0.5 rounds to 1!
@Denarr - I've checked my table, and it is OK.
If for example you take forest fort, then my table shows 5.333/10.666, which should be ROUNDUP for one worker to 6/11 as you wrote.
The only mistake I think you have is that chop forest is 4/7 not 4/8 since it is 3.333/6.666. Please check this (?) and rep.p..?
Note that conclusions indicate that one worker may do a ROUNDUP for these numbers, but also that efficiency can be saved -
We can look at the 1.5 turns for road at the beginning -
that is rounded to 2 with one worker, so a worker does 1/1.5 = 2/3 of the job per turn.
A slave does it in 3 turns, meaning 1/3 of the job per turn.
Thus, a slave and a worker do 2/3+1/3 = 1 = ALL the work on one turn!
Perhaps it is even smarter to do the table with 1/value that currently is there, so combinations can be found more easily.
I think this issue is almost done (special thanks for denarr for his tests!
Chaim.
@Denarr - I've checked my table, and it is OK.
If for example you take forest fort, then my table shows 5.333/10.666, which should be ROUNDUP for one worker to 6/11 as you wrote.
The only mistake I think you have is that chop forest is 4/7 not 4/8 since it is 3.333/6.666. Please check this (?) and rep.p..?
Note that conclusions indicate that one worker may do a ROUNDUP for these numbers, but also that efficiency can be saved -
We can look at the 1.5 turns for road at the beginning -
that is rounded to 2 with one worker, so a worker does 1/1.5 = 2/3 of the job per turn.
A slave does it in 3 turns, meaning 1/3 of the job per turn.
Thus, a slave and a worker do 2/3+1/3 = 1 = ALL the work on one turn!
Perhaps it is even smarter to do the table with 1/value that currently is there, so combinations can be found more easily.
I think this issue is almost done (special thanks for denarr for his tests!
Chaim.
Denarr
Warlord
OK, I'll recheck slaves Chopping Forest.
I haven't attained Replaceable Parts yet (two or three techs to go). I'll post as soon as I have the data.
[Edit] You are correct. Chopping Forest 4/7 in Democracy. I have no idea how I got that wrong.
Here's my initial report for Replaceable Parts.
Replaceable Parts
Hills Road 1/
Hills RR 2/4
Hills Mine 2/4
Hills Fort 3/6
Grass Road 1/1
Grass RR 1/2
Grass Mine 1/2
Grass Irr. 1/2
Grass Fort 2/3
Forest Road 1/2
Forest Chop 2/4
Forest Fort 3/6
Mtn. Road 2/3
Mtn. RR 3/6
Mtn. Mine 3/6
Mtn. Fort 4/8
Jungle Road 2/3
Jungle RR 3/6
Jungle Clear 4/8
Jungle Fort 4/8
Conclusion: Slaves have half the work value of Workers at all times.
I have been so wrong.
I haven't attained Replaceable Parts yet (two or three techs to go). I'll post as soon as I have the data.
[Edit] You are correct. Chopping Forest 4/7 in Democracy. I have no idea how I got that wrong.
Here's my initial report for Replaceable Parts.
Replaceable Parts
Hills Road 1/
Hills RR 2/4
Hills Mine 2/4
Hills Fort 3/6
Grass Road 1/1
Grass RR 1/2
Grass Mine 1/2
Grass Irr. 1/2
Grass Fort 2/3
Forest Road 1/2
Forest Chop 2/4
Forest Fort 3/6
Mtn. Road 2/3
Mtn. RR 3/6
Mtn. Mine 3/6
Mtn. Fort 4/8
Jungle Road 2/3
Jungle RR 3/6
Jungle Clear 4/8
Jungle Fort 4/8
Conclusion: Slaves have half the work value of Workers at all times.
I have been so wrong.
Greetings,
A Month ago I am on the same track and I had actually done a formula.
First find the Men Work required to complete a "Worker Action" on a certain Tile.
MEN WORK = Movement Cost * Base Turn to Complete Action
Both can be found under "Terrain" and under "Worker Action" of "Game Concept" in Civilopedia.
Imagine MEN WORK to be how difficult to do the action on that tile. For example,
mining on mountain = Movement Cost 3 X Action Turn 12 = 36 men work
build fortress on forest = Movement Cost 2 X Action Turn 16 = 32 men work
It is a lot easier to remember the man work required to work on a tile.
then you calculate the worker's work rate
Worker's Rate = Base Worker rate X Industrial Trait Modifier X Government Modifier X Replacement Part Modifier (Round Down the final Worker's Rate)
where
Basic work rate
Foreign worker = 0.5 man work per turn
Local worker = 1 man work per turn
Industrial Trait Modifier
Ind. = 1.5 for C3C, 2 for PTW
non-Ind. = 1
Government Modifier
Anarchy = 1 found in editor
Despotism = 2
Monarchy = 2
Republic = 2
Feudalism = 2
Democracy = 3
Fascism = 4
Communism = 2
Replacement Part Modifier 2 for researched
1 for has not research
A simplier way is to remember the LWWR (Local Worker's Work Rate) which is multiple of all modifiers.
For example, your are industrial democratic in modern age (R.Part researched)
your LWWR is 1.5 x 3 x 2 = 9
your Local Worker will have work rate of 9 men work per turn and your Foreign Worker will have 4 men work per turn (half of 9 is 4.5, round down becomes 4)
Turn to Complete = Men Work / Worker's Work Rate (roundup)
If you want to Build fortress on forest (which is 32 men work), you need :
Local Foreign
4 0 = 4*9 + 0*4 = 36 + 0 = 36 men work or
3 2 = 3*9 + 2*4 = 27 + 8 = 35 men work or
2 4 = 2*9 + 4*4 = 18 + 16 = 34 men work or
1 6 = 1*9 + 6*4 = 9 + 24 = 33 men work or
0 8 = 0*9 + 8*4 = 0 + 32 = 32 men work (best combination)
I had done an excel worksheet to help the calculation.
www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Men_Work.zip
If you need further explaination, I'm most willing to help
Regards
A Month ago I am on the same track and I had actually done a formula.
First find the Men Work required to complete a "Worker Action" on a certain Tile.
MEN WORK = Movement Cost * Base Turn to Complete Action
Both can be found under "Terrain" and under "Worker Action" of "Game Concept" in Civilopedia.
Imagine MEN WORK to be how difficult to do the action on that tile. For example,
mining on mountain = Movement Cost 3 X Action Turn 12 = 36 men work
build fortress on forest = Movement Cost 2 X Action Turn 16 = 32 men work
It is a lot easier to remember the man work required to work on a tile.
then you calculate the worker's work rate
Worker's Rate = Base Worker rate X Industrial Trait Modifier X Government Modifier X Replacement Part Modifier (Round Down the final Worker's Rate)
where
Basic work rate
Foreign worker = 0.5 man work per turn
Local worker = 1 man work per turn
Industrial Trait Modifier
Ind. = 1.5 for C3C, 2 for PTW
non-Ind. = 1
Government Modifier
Anarchy = 1 found in editor
Despotism = 2
Monarchy = 2
Republic = 2
Feudalism = 2
Democracy = 3
Fascism = 4
Communism = 2
Replacement Part Modifier 2 for researched
1 for has not research
A simplier way is to remember the LWWR (Local Worker's Work Rate) which is multiple of all modifiers.
For example, your are industrial democratic in modern age (R.Part researched)
your LWWR is 1.5 x 3 x 2 = 9
your Local Worker will have work rate of 9 men work per turn and your Foreign Worker will have 4 men work per turn (half of 9 is 4.5, round down becomes 4)
Turn to Complete = Men Work / Worker's Work Rate (roundup)
If you want to Build fortress on forest (which is 32 men work), you need :
Local Foreign
4 0 = 4*9 + 0*4 = 36 + 0 = 36 men work or
3 2 = 3*9 + 2*4 = 27 + 8 = 35 men work or
2 4 = 2*9 + 4*4 = 18 + 16 = 34 men work or
1 6 = 1*9 + 6*4 = 9 + 24 = 33 men work or
0 8 = 0*9 + 8*4 = 0 + 32 = 32 men work (best combination)
I had done an excel worksheet to help the calculation.
www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Men_Work.zip
If you need further explaination, I'm most willing to help
Regards
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
Denarr, thanks!
I think we have covered all loops for this on vanilla and PTW.
Tarzus, I'll take time later to further review your xls sheet -
I don't think rounding is ok until last calculation for worker turns,
but I'm glad to get the information anout C3C!
The formula is not entirely new - see JMK's calc which does approximately the same... am I the only dumb one who takes a table as his DB..?
I think we have covered all loops for this on vanilla and PTW.
Tarzus, I'll take time later to further review your xls sheet -
I don't think rounding is ok until last calculation for worker turns,
but I'm glad to get the information anout C3C!
The formula is not entirely new - see JMK's calc which does approximately the same... am I the only dumb one who takes a table as his DB..?
Denarr
Warlord
Not the only one calculators are really hard to print on paper
and tables are easier to memorise
Hi Boogaboo,
I'm sure someone if not many in this forum has done the formula before (guys on this forum can actually come up with formula as complicated as "corruption" I don't see why not this simple formula
).
What I'm trying to do to help is merely point out that it is easy to remember the quantity as "Men Work" (or any other terms you like) than remember it as "how many turns to complete" because time and again we will have a restricted combination of workers and we want to send the most efficient combo of work force there.
Hi Dennar,
Of course, table are easier to refer to, I just take the opporturnity to give a little option to others who don't wish to printout / memorise table
.
Regards
I'm sure someone if not many in this forum has done the formula before (guys on this forum can actually come up with formula as complicated as "corruption" I don't see why not this simple formula
).What I'm trying to do to help is merely point out that it is easy to remember the quantity as "Men Work" (or any other terms you like) than remember it as "how many turns to complete" because time and again we will have a restricted combination of workers and we want to send the most efficient combo of work force there.
Hi Dennar,
Of course, table are easier to refer to, I just take the opporturnity to give a little option to others who don't wish to printout / memorise table
.Regards
boogaboo
Josef Popper 4ever
I like simple formulas, I also like to print tables and play with them.
Hate to memorize..
At work.. nearing weekend..
Hate to memorize..
At work.. nearing weekend..
Denarr
Warlord
Doing the math is fun (for me at least) and looking at a chart is faster, but sometimes I'm in too much of a hurry or just not in the mood to do either.Originally posted by Tarzus
Hi Dennar,
Of course, table are easier to refer to, I just take the opporturnity to give a little option to others who don't wish to printout/memorise table
Regards
I only posted my lists because I've learned that hard data is usually better at resolving a dispute than loud words.
In this particular case I disproved my own statement; which is why I prefer to have some form of reference at hand when I'm involved in an informational dispute. (Much quicker for finding the proven answer.)
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