World History Mod development thread

[Gooblah]

@General_Specific and Kevin

I'm working on a collaborative spreadsheet with the categories and names of each civic. It'll include stuff from both of us. I'll write up effects in another version.

@Kevin:

As for the Civic Screen itself. Considering that there will probably be a dozen civic categories, each with up to 10 civics, organization is going to be (IMO) awkward. I suggest, if you can do it, one Civic Screen with tabs (like in the Foreign Advisor), for Government, Economy, Military, Religion, and Society.

 

[Gooblah]

I've created a blank template with all the civics on the cost sheet. It divides the Civics into Economic (Currency, Economic, Taxation, Labor), Government (Institutional, Legal, Suffrage, Executive), and Policy (Religious, Military, Foreign, Environmental) Civics.

Note that I haven't created a Health Care/Education in the Costs spreadsheet, I'll be on that.

I hope that we can use this template as a launching point for defining each one. One person can have the sheet at each time, so that way each version posted will contain the changes made in the previous one. By the end...we should have a complete civics guide.

Template:

 

[kevinman4404]

@Gooblah: excellent! i think this could cause some decent behind-the-scenes productivity EDIT: Oh... I already have a scrollable screen (and btw the max civics will be lower than 10...). It may not be the ideal display but it should be fine if I can't get the tabs to work, which would be super-ideal.

This isn't a very official post (I'm delaying our status on civics until next post), I just wanted to say that I am working on this, I'm busy trying to make a leaderhead or two, and the North American civs are just about ready to go (in a very rough form, ie to test out all artwork, etc.). I just didn't want anyone to think the mod has been pushed aside

EDIT: update my projected system requirements/reccomendations. Probably the "reccomended specs" will turn into "required specs" once I've tested it in about a year. Hopefully these don't disappoint anyone

 

[Gooblah]

@Kevin.

I've been rooting through the DLL for my own mini-mod (changing a few annoying diplomacy things involving capitulation), and I'm feeling somewhat comfy with it. Of course, I'm a bit of a noob, but I'm taking a class and I'm pretty sure I could convince my teacher that doing C++ work for you could count as a final project of sorts.

So...if you need C++ help, I'm your man.

Edit: I can work on this...

As I attempt to scour South America for World Wonders from the area, I have come up with a few more ideas (also, if you need unit modding, I can help with that; I can mod in XML just fine, and will have time (TONS of time) within a month...if its not done by then):

I noticed you had advanced allies and alliance systems as a part of your change list. Thus...

Alliances
Permanent Alliance: Creates a new Civilization. Can only occur between 2 Civilizations. Merges Cities, Units, Improvements, and Civics/Religions into one Civilization with one Leader. (use this to create the Austro-Hungarian Empire or other things where 2 Empires peacefully merged) (already implemented)
Defensive Pact: Creates a Defensive Pact between two nations. If one nation is attacked, other declares war on enemy. Pact will be cancelled if a signatory declares war on a nation. (already implemented)
Offensive Pact: Creates an Offensive Pact between two Empires. Functions like a Defensive Pact, but other signatory will be in war if one signatory declares war on third party (like Triple Entente in a way).
Capitulation: Occurs in Wartime only. Nation A may capitulate to Nation B (its war enemy) if Nation A has lost 50% of its population OR 50% of its land OR lost 50% of its military at the start of the war. Creates Open Borders and cultural healing bonus for Nation B's units when in Nation A. Creates Offensive Pact between Nation A and Nation B. Cannot be 'redded out' by Nation A in Diplomacy. Nation A cannot declare war or trade without permission of Nation B.
Voluntary Vassalage: Occurs in Peacetime only. Nation A may become a Vassal of Nation B if Nation A's Power is less than or equal to 55% of Nation B's Power. Creates Open Borders and cultural healing bonus for Nation B in Nation A. Creates Offensive Pact between Nation A and Nation B. Can be canceled after 10 turns by either party. (already implemented, excl. 55% power thing, which is easy to do) Done!

I don't remember the normal Capitulation ending requirements, but I would use those for this form of Capitulation.

Edit

 

[Grishnash]

Just checking in, hows it going?
Oh, one of the pacts should be "Non-aggression pact: Parties cannot attack each other."

I'm working on an idea for Population usage, it was alot better in my head when I thought it up three days ago but isn't coming out so well , but was wondering if maybe it may be a little much for the mod, let me

btw, you should check out the Total war mod! It's got some fine looking coding

 

[kevinman4404]

@Gooblah: thanks for the offer! I appreciate it.

If anyone has any diplomacy ideas, please let me know.

Other than diplomacy though, I don't know yet (what needs to be done). But this is good, I'm getting better at python, so we should have all our bases covered *thumbsup

@Grishnash- WOW you are right that mod is totally impressive. For example, each civ has a tuneable number for how aggressively they will pursue environmental initiatives. Overall, very impressive

I am extremely extremely impressed by what I have read so far about the mod (though the English is hard to read, I think the writer is French... now that I think of it I should have just read it in French). You can expect to see a lot of stuff from that mod (or derived from). And I must say that the maker has good taste. This might be the nicest-sounding mod I've heard yet. (and the biggest I've downloaded... gonna take me at least an hour)

And a quick question... should having a nuclear arsenal make people more peaceful or more prone to war? This seems to be the kind of question that can be argued either way. Total war argues it makes civs less likely to conflict. What is your opinion?

Anyways I'll test out Total War... again sorry to delay my posts, I'll update us on civics asap

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@Kevin

Regarding your question on nuclear warfare, its high time I made another proposal! These doctrines would have no real bearing on human tactics, since they do not need a civic to employ these strategies. These Doctrines are for the use of the AI.

Defense Doctrines:

Massive Retaliation: A policy employed by the Eisenhower administration that essentially said that any action against the United States, no matter how small, would be met with "massive retaliation." This policy is essentially the idea of a conventional military cutback and an emphasis on air-superiority and nuclear deterrent. This policy would make it more likely that an opponent would use nuclear weapons in response to aggression. This policy becomes essentially obsolete once an enemy acquires a nuclear bomb.

Proportional Response: A policy developed by Defense Secretary Robert MacNamara under the Kennedy Administration. This policy proposed a guided elevation of warfare in order to prevent "Nuclear Chicken" between two or more nations that posessed the bomb. See DefCon system: http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defcon. This policy becomes effective in a world where the nuclear bomb has been developed by more than one enemy nation.

International Blackmail: This policy is frequently used by weak nations that are lax in foreign policy influence. This doctrine is typically employed by threatening the use of destabilizing aggression, whether conventional or unconventional, in order to demand attention from major powers.

Preventive Intervention: This policy, more recently dubbed the Bush Doctrine, provides that any nation harboring enemies of the United States or any nation that poses a real threat to American national security will be ousted by the United States regardless of whether or not aggression has been committed.

Sovereign Defense: Essentially this: we only fight when the war is brought to us or if you attempt to alter our government by instilling violence.

 

[gazius]

Concerning military access, will we see three sets of deals to be made - air space, water, and land? I would not mind units passing through some sort of canal I control like Panama's or at the Black sea, but I do not want units moving through my lands. Or perhaps I'll grant the US permission to fly over my nation so that they may conduct missions in a neighboring state.

Will there also be spheres of Influence? As Russia I would object heavily to Georgia joining NATO, or alternatively the formation of Communist Cuba in that American lake known as the Caribbean. Sorry if this has been addressed and I just missed it.

One other thing: Is there a civic order for how the state is administered? Playing ROM, there are two civics in the same category that shouldn't be treated as two slices of the same pie - Federal, and Democracy.

 

[BeardedWonder]

subscribes

Just to say good luck and thanks to all those involved in this wonderfull, ambitious project. This really looks something else, will follow this with interest.

KUTGW

 

[GeneralSpecific]

Hey Kevin, I am working on a sort of "Grand Proposal" that will detail some of my efforts, along with Gooblah and any one else who would like to weigh in, on economy, civics, and other ideas. However, I don't know whether I should be in a hurry to write it up or if I have time to research before you are ready to make decisions and start coding these things. The specifics will revolve around civic costs, as worked on by Gooblah, realistic civic effects, the actual civics, economics of Civilization, etc. Of course, you don't have to listen to a single bit of it, as this is your mod and you are in command. I will, however, continue to throw in my advice as long as it is welcome. I am not here to overwhelm you with big ideas and expect you to develop them all.

 

[johny smith]

Well I have not looked through this entire thread of course. I saw the link to CivJunction. And anyway I saw the religions you were thinking about. Quite a few.

Well I do not know what your guys plans are for the dll, but I stripped down the WoC Full version to a WoC Lite version. So anyway it adds the WoC modular loading, scrolling civics screen, and the gamefonts that increase the amount of religions to 184, corporations to 184, and resources to 368.

Anyway regardless of what dll you are wanting to use the WoC Lite with only things I mentioned aboce should be pretty easy to merge if you want those features.

I am working on a RevDCM WoC Lite merge as well, but I do not think you guys want that necessarily. Anyway just wondering. If you don't need it. Well sorry for the post then.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

Kevin, yes I know, it's a bit long but I typed this on my college's computer between exams and I need to post it for you and for myself so I can look at it later. This is just some of the work I have been doing while I was quiet...

I put it in a .txt format. Comments welcome!

 

[kevinman4404]

I am done all my auditions! I am back to work, though there may be busy periods

@GeneralSpecific, I think we'll go with something like this. Note, if after a while some combinations still don't make sense, we can always block that combination out. I'm very curious what some of the effects will be like (ie for all those constitutional subdivisions)

I really don't get how the Suffrage category will work

Also, how would you represent a one-party state (ie some sort of corrupted democracy)
And in terms of constitution, how would you represent France's dual P.M./President system?

Work on your proposals at your own speed; if whoever's coding isn't ready at the time, we can always look back at it later and discuss it in the meantime

@BeardedWonder: welcome!

@Gazius: I will, if we can code it. Definitely for land and water, if we can. I don't know how air units will work yet.

There will likely be no spheres of influence... I do not know how I would use those, though I imagine it wouldn't be too hard. However, I might instead control it in a more direct way.

I do not know what you mean by the 3rd bit

@JohnnySmith: Thank you. That's exactly what I will be needing (though there might be other stuff; I'll have to look into it). But coding-wise, that would be perfect! Is it available for d/l?

@Gooblah, yes, I would appreciate help coding Offensive Pact and his ver. of capitulation

 

[johny smith]

Yes but I could do something to make a little better though. I was using for testing the first one I sent up. I could make a dll that hide asserts and give a debug dll if you don't know how to.

If you do know how then ya it is available now.

I have a RevDCM WoC Lite ready to go if you want that immediately.

But I thought I saw something about using Rhye's stuff. If you going to use Rhye's stuff someone is going to need to merge the SDK.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@ Kev,
As far as the suffrage category goes, suffrage can only make a difference if the government is a constitutional one. The suffrage options are the subdivisions and can seriously alter the nature of government. Allowing all to vote, under Popular suffrage, makes for regular elections (this is not like Popular Power, where power is given to the government by the people). Hereditary suffrage allows for a Constitutional government that provides that succession be dealt with via heredity. Appointment is a sort of representational system where individuals in office appoint who is to succeed or lead them. Merit allows the most experienced and highly ranked to rule, like the Roman Senate (Senate came from the latin word "Senex," meaning "old man"). Religious suffrage allows only those of a certain religious faith to become or choose leaders.

A One-Party State will be addressed in my Civil Liberties section, which I have yet to develop.

And regarding France's Dual-Executive branch, I had considered this but it seems to bizzare and difficult to justify as being significantly different from the regular parliamentary system. If you are keen on adding this system of government, I am fully able to come up with a way to make it make sense.

P.S. What I think Gazius is saying in that last part is that in RoM, Democracy and Federal are in the same category, when in reality they are not contrary ideas. Federalism (and its application, the Federal Government) means a vertical division of power between the central government and its provinces. There have been federal democracies.

 

[kevinman4404]

It will use the RFC Europe engine. I will attempt to merge it.

RevDCM/WoC Lite would be nice. I looked at the features of RevDCM and they seem mostly compatible with my mod

Kevin

edit: @GeneralSpecific: alright, but what is RoM? Edit: nevermind (I've never played it yet)

 

[johny smith]

One small thing if there any changes in the CvTeam.cpp ignore them I left a file in there that was not needed. Sorry about the mistake. I still have not got around to uploading another file yet.

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@Kevin,
So, does this mean you would like me to develop the idea of the dual executive? I'd be more than glad to. Just constructing these forms of government has helped me get a good grasp of political science and philosophy (which is great because that's my major!).

 

[GeneralSpecific]

I'm ********...how do I delete this post! DON'T LAUGH AT ME!

 

[Grishnash]

okay, not to load you down with ideas, but do you think world blocs such NATO, SCO and the AU ought be included in the whole "New ally system"
Kinda acting like the UN or something?