Worldreligions or Generic-only-Religions

[dh_epic]

I think keeping it as an abstract matrix, like Aussie suggested, is the best for "lateral" moves within the same religion. One dimension is the deity (monotheist, polytheist, animist), the other dimension is how it's institutionalized (blood cult, ascetic, orthodox, reformist, nationalist). It's easier to imagine a switch from orthodox to reformist monotheist, than a switch from christianity to buddhism.

 

[menwia]

tell me if i got it right then.

For each Core Relgion that you have - which are maybe 12 at least.

You have five or several degrees of the religion - ranging from the Very Orthodox Style to the Liberal Style - and people just swap from one range of the religion to the other.

What about the relgions you can create yourself? How would they fit in to this?

P.S. How many possible relgions are we then left with in the game? Please give me a number on this . ..

 

[menwia]

Off Topic.

Just wanted to point out the Percentage Calculator for the Poll at the top of thread is kinda of doing its own thing. I've never been very good at maths, but if you count all the %'s up - i'm sure its more then 100. lol -

 

[dh_epic]

The poll was kind of set up to ask two questions in one, so it's a bit tricky.

I think the choices for core religions were 4 maybe 5. Polytheist, monotheist, animist, and some others. Plus another 4 or 5 choices for degrees/sects of the religions. The end result is 25 different permutations. Pretty managable. Like choosing an article of clothing, and then picking the color, it's a level of complexity that most people can manage.

 

[menwia]

So I could be Monothist Orthodox?

But I don't know which Monothiest Relgion I am, how would I know what to build, synogegs, churches or mosques.

What historical event would I follow - of which religion?

Orothodox Islam is different from Orthodox Christianty or Jeudasim.

Do see the problems which will arise? YOu wont know if your coming and going.

the number 25 is managable - but now we face the problem of clarity and identity.

good example of what I mean. Lets say you discover Monothism. A pop up box appears with Abrahma, Jesus and Muhammed altogether saying something like we bring to you the word and the light or something relgious like that . . .. what path do you follow?

P.S. we have enough problems with just trying to clarify what Orthodox means in just one religon - let alond trying to make Orthodox mean the same thing spanning over three relgions.

Other Problems would be what wonders could you choose. King Richards Crusade ain't really approiate to the Monothism Islamic or Jeudaism relgions and vice versa. .. .

each monothism relgion degrees as you put it will be different from the same degree of the other relgions.

 

[dh_epic]

I think keeping it abstract keeps it safer. Sure you might not know whether you're in a US style democracy or a scandinavian style Democracy, but it's democracy.

I understand and respect your realism concerns, but I'm not talking about the world of what happened, but the world of what COULD happen. I think sticking with real world labels ends up with more constraints on what could happen (unless you make stuff up, which is self-defeating for something that's supposed to add realism). By keeping it abstract, you end up with something more fluid, more believable, despite being a bit more removed from reality.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, just a quick recap.

There are THREE things which define each religion:

1) The 'Central Pillar of Belief': These are 'Humanist'-the worhsip of a person or person(s) as living Gods; 'Animist'-The worship of spirits and the Ephemera-be they naturae or ancestral spirits; 'Polytheist'-the belief in a wide Pantheon of different gods and demigods; 'Monotheist'-Belief in a single, all-powerful Creator God; 'Non-Deist'-a belief system which is based around philosophy and self-improvement, rather than the worship of Gods or Spirits; None/Atheist: The total acceptance of science and reason and, therefore, the complete rejection of the supernatural.

2) Your Culture Group: North American; South American; Western European; Eastern European; North African; African; Mediterranean; Middle-Eastern; Asian; South East Asian.

3) Your Sect: 'Orthodox'-a sect based around the 'literal' translation of the beliefs behind the parent religion (I think!); 'Reformist/Protestant'-a sect which seeks to 'demystify' and 'democratise' the practice of the parent religion; 'Ascetic'-a sect whose principle tenet is that to be true to the parent religion requires the abandonment of the trappings of the physical world; 'Blood Cult'-a sect that believes that only the sacrifice of other lives can bring them in accrodance with their parent religion. Hmmm, would you consider 'ecumenicist' a sect??
So, if ALL possible combinations are allowed, then we are looking at a potential of between 240 and 300 different religions/sects! Of course, I envisage in my model that not ALL possible combinations will be acceptable, or even allowed. This will, however, probably still leave you with about 60-100 possible combinations to choose from!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[menwia]

wow Aussie Lurker - don't you think maybe that's pushing it a bit?

A potential of 200-300 but a probable of 60-100.

Wow - but it still don't answer how are going to define what is orthodox in any of the Relgious Classes, cause each specific religons within that class has its own stlye of Orthodox - a Orthodox Christian might be considered a Liberal Muslim - eg a christian will be drinking wine and such, whilst an orthodox Muslime wouldn't drink alchol. The same goes with every other degree or sect within each Class?

dh - I think you've kinda of backed up my own point accidentally - if you look at Aussie's explaination we are in fact to a certain degree looking at a us democracy from a swedish democracy - cause you've got the added factor of civ groups.

I agree wtih your point - but in actually fact, just having one label called Christain is more abstrat then the present model. YOu're not diferntialting between which Christian sects or christian Civ Groups - rather it just one Abstart label - where you can deciede what kind of flavor you want it to be by your choices - eg War/Peace or both by which Wonders you build.

Aussie - i think you're actuall mechanics of the model are brilliant - but I got to be honest with you - its way too much choice, you might disagree . . . which is fair enough.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I failed to mention one other thing which defines a nations (rather than a cultures) religion-and that is your social engineering settings (if they are in the game). For instance, an orthodox religion will usually have a low level of libertarianism as compared to its reformist counterpart. How comparatively liberal an Orthodox sect is, though, will depend on your nations Libertarianism settings. Same with 'Spiritualism', 'Nationalism', 'Sufferage' and 'Militarism'. The specific settings on all of these parameters will put the final definition on the national character of your faith!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[menwia]

Let me put to to you this way Aussie.

If you take out the sect/style religons model you got now.

And replace them witht the Core Religons MOdel, would not your model in essence still work - but you'd have alot less complication.

YOu can get the difference in each religion by first the religion itself, and secondly the Choices you make -eg which wonders you build.

You wouldn't have to do so much work, and you'd get a more realism feel to it as well . .

What do you think?

P.S. and I think we agree alot about how things should run and about converting, and all kinds of things which should happen with religio, the main conceptual differences we have is just the actuall Relgions Name/types you are using.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I confess that, even without sects, you would still have a wide variety of choices. Though I do confess a certain degree of affection for Sects, I am NOT so in love with them that I would weep if they didn't make an appearance ! I think that either would work! Also, though it might SEEM like a lot of choices at first, your nations religous and sect preferences will greatly narrow the number of religious groupings which exist at any given time. In addition, some civs will probably join an existing religious group (either by choice or neccesity) thus cutting back the number of total religious groups in play in any one game! If you had 30 civs in a game, I would be suprised if there were ever more than 8-10 religious groups (religions and sects) in play at any one time!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[menwia]

Firstly - just the work load alone is daunting - I mean just with having 12 core Relgions is going to be work enough and choice enough i think.

SEconldy - its gonna get real confusing, no ones gonna really know which relgigion does what and which one is the best for their situation.

Thirdly - trying to define each one and give its own characterists and traits is gonna cause you so much agro - you're gonna have so many people disagreeing with you that its gonna be impossable to reach some kind of conclustion.

Fourthly - just by having the possiblity of so many choices - I mean how are these religons gonna be created, how you gonna put them all in the tech tree, the endless computations and counter effects and all that is just unthinkable.

If you use the Core Relgion Model - you don't have to worry about Civ Groups, you got no problem about what civ groups can build what wonders. YOu don't have to worry about your sliders, so you don't have to programe that in with all the addd implications its gonna have.

Wheather you want it static - everyone chages in one go, or dynamic -there is a ebb and flow and people change or get converted bit by bit can be worked out. I personaly prefer the dynamic model but can live with a static one. And if its having choice within your religon - you can hvae that to by having the ability to make Choices.

P.S. I think it would be a really good mod though - where you could go into some real depth with the Sects. Power to you bro - I can tell you've put some real thought into. You could make up endless mods and scenarios with the Sect theme .. .

P.P.S. Its late, and I kinda of forgot what I was gonna say - but muddling alond, like was said before - each Class of Relgion would be more or less prone to Schisms and converstions depending what Class they were, all this can be implemented giving relgions differences. Also other traits could be applied to them as well.

I'm not sure what they would be - like dh mentioned earlier which was a good point - why would one relgion have a 50% food production whilst another wouldn't. I think any bonus and the choice of bonus's should be looked at carefully and should reflect history - so at least one has a defense for the decisions. The third way off how to define your relgion would be by the Wonders/buildings and units you build and by the Choices you make.

Also check out Teabeard's thread on Holy Cities - its a pretty cool idea. I think it would be a nice addition to any relgious model.

 

[rhialto]

I wouldn't try to include all those christian sects. In my mind, I am toying with either having a single "Christian" religion, or having 3 separate Christians (Catholic, Protestant, (Eastern )Orthodox). In any case, my religion model will require the use of mutually exclusive wonder construction. So if you have Sistine Chapel, no Luther's Theses for example. With exclusive wonders, you can make your own flavour of christianity depending on which wonders are built.

As for religions giving bonuses on traits, this will be small wonder based. For example, Christian civs can have the "Protestant Work Ethic" small wonder, which would be exclusive with Catholic/Orthodox wonders, and gives, say, a 10% bonus to industrial production. Norse religion (we NEED a better name) might have "Horn of Valhala" which gives a bonus to attack factors. All religious wonders (great and small) should have a moddable for expiry flags.

Also, most of those Christian sects do not have any notable properties that distinguish them from others to the extent they could be given wonder improvements, whioch is the real litmus test for whether they can be included in the game.

One final note. If your state religion is Secular, that is actually a non-religion, and as it doesn't have any holy city type great wonder, it isn't possible to win a religious victory under that "religion".

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hmmm, I have been thinking some more about sects, and I WOULD still like to see them in but, instead of being able to choose them from a list, sects would instead appear in a semi-random fashion based on certain in-game factors! For instance, a heavily militaristic civ, with a long history of warfare, might have a small 'blood-cult' emerging in certain parts of the nation. If this sect starts to take hold, then you might be given the choice to 'adopt' this sect as the state religion. Certain CORE religions would be much more likely to generate certain sects over others. For instance, Monotheism would be more likely to develop an Orthodox or Reformist sect, wheras a Non-Deist or Animist religion might be much less likely to develop either of these sects.
So, the factors which might determine the emergence of a sect might be your civ traits, your 'ethics', degree of happiness and corruption, your core religion and your unit, improvement and wonder choices!
I think it would be wrong to ignore the importance of sects in religious history-after all, The Jewish Ascetic sect known as the Essenes are believed to have been a major contributor to the actions of both John the Baptist AND Jesus. Similarly, the Catholic Ascetics of Southern France (the Albergienses) posed a very great threat to the authority of the central Catholic Authorites. One also cannot overlook Christian sects like the Orthodox and Protestants, or the Wahaabi, Sunni and Shiite sects of the Islamic faith. This importance I feel just can't be accurately conveyed with the core religions alone!
Oh, one final thing I should point out is that, as daunting as that list as possible religions might look, it is important to note that many of the possible permutations will not be available due to isolation of culture groups. After all, on a real world map, the Western Europeans won't meet the North/South Americans for thousands of years-precluding these culture options from European civs!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[menwia]

Rhialto, Aussie - I think both your systems have merit.

Aussie - that's fair and i think maybe more practical approach to it - you must accept though that some control is taken away from the Player - in the sense that relgion is kinda forced onto him.

That leave the question how does these religons get discovered? Eg, would it be in a tech tree, or would they kinda of just appear?

Rhialto - I like the idea of you bullding wonders which give specific traits. Not only can it be limited to traits but also actions maybe. You have to build certain wonders to declare a HOly War.

The thing is that you must have wonders that can be backed up by history. And yes, I agree with you - if you are secular then that in its self means you can not have a Relkgous Victory.

Rhialto - questions I have are as followes.

How many relgions within in your model?

How can you defend your choice of which Denomincations to inlclude? Point being, the reason we have different Denominations and Sects is because They are different - If your breaking down to Denomination level - then you have to be fair to all of them - large and small - and we already know what kinda of numbers were talking about here . . . their loads just in Christianty, and you have all those other Relgions to deal with as well.

P.S. Rhialto - I personally think that if you stick with just the one Christian, one Islamic, One Hindu - one ect model you save your self a whole lot of headache. Each one thiese religons as you said before can by defined by the player by bulding Wonders great and small - therefore givein the Player Real Choice which is essential whilst also sticking to the parameters of History - meaing you can defend your Wonders by evnets and examples from History itself.

 

[dh_epic]

Just to be quick, I think the great thing about Aussie's religion model is while there are a lot of possibilities, the choices are just enough. The culture groups aren't something you choose but something you inherit. In which case, the only choices you have are the "central pillar" as Aussie calls it (the deity, the type of worship) and how dogmatic you are about it. Is it just a way of life? Is it everywhere, in every institution? Do you take it to the extreme? 5 X 5 X your culture group is still 25 choices, even if there are many culture groups from the start of the game when you pick your Civ.

I just think keeping it pretty abstract has its benefits for when you want to make those transitions. You can see how you can go from a Monotheist Orthodox to a Monotheist Blood Cult, it just makes sense. But it's harder to imagine going from Buddhist to Christian. Moreover, the very idea of a Buddhist Blood Cult is just completely unrealistic (for anyone who's familiar with the buddhist faith). Abstraction is quite beneficial for its flexibilitity and intuitiveness.

 

[menwia]

Just to clarify where we are - if Rhialto goes with just the Core Relgions and Aussie goes with the Sects theme - what we have is World Relgions as oppossed to Generic/Traits - (I leave up to Aussie which one he wants to group it as).

However, if Aussie changed his Sects to Core Relgions it would become a World Religions model like Rhialto. Then I think we can take merge the two - taking the best of each one.

However. as i see it - and please correct me if I'm wrong. The only REAL REASON we're not going with World Relgions is that its difficult to example how eg, Christains would schism to Buddist or vice versa?

If this could be resolved - would everyone agree that world relgions would be a more prefrable model then having Generic/Traits model?

P.S I think that Aussie and Rhialto have some really excellent mechanics of the model's going here.

P.P.S dh - i see two options with Aussie Five Degrees of RElgion. One you either have to abandon them fi you choose core Relgions and Rely soly on the Wonders aspect to define the flavor of your religon. Or two -which I think maybe an interesting thing to explore - maybe keep them, but have certain Degree's be more difficult and more costly to attain in certain Relgious Class and Certain Relgions.

E.g To have a Buddist Blood-Cult would be possible but becuase it so against the base beliefs of Buddism you'd have one hell of a penalty to pay. However, if you go back to the earlier Relgions, human sacrifice was their thing, and that would be more easier for them to have - whilst having a liberal Degree to them would cause you a hell of lot of problems.

However, saying that i still have one Problem with the Generic Monothism labeling and clarifications issues which just can not be bridged . . .

 

[menwia]

Apart from it being a Generic/Traits model which kinda of a second prize feeling to it because we couldn't work out World RElgious Model. One detractions from it is you lose alot of immersiveness and also alot of connection to history which if it can be attained is the key selling point of thiis game.

The main stumbling block here - Aussie, dh - is that you just can't define what an Orthodox Monothism relgion would be like, becuause each religions within that Class will be different. You can't describe what a Orthodox Animist RElgion would be like, cuase they would all be different, You can't descrbe what a Polthnestic Orthodox woould be be like cause the relgions within them would all be different.

There is no real and proper way to clarify what Othordox, Liberal ect would mean across the broad spectrum of all the religions which you are trying to represent under Animist, Polythistic,Monothisium.

That is the main problem - one which if you look at the answers will contradict each other. YOu are trying to merge religions under one banner which do not merge, you are trying to label relgions under one banner which cannot be labled - guys, it just don't work . . . And that's the real issue here.

P.S. for it to work Aussie - I think you would have to go into real detail here, you would have to specify which Civ Group, Relgious Class, Religion, Denomination and finally Sect. I think like you said before, it would kind of be chosen for you, but you would't really be able to just have a Monothism Orthodox label - it would run more like "Persian Monothism Christian Eastern-Orhtodox Sect Orthodox-liberl religion.

You can't really just get away with a Monothism Orthodox or Monothism Liberal relgion. The very Generic Nature of this model is its own worst enemy.

 

[rhialto]

ok, the exhaustive lit of religions I have for my model as it stands is:

Animist - generic
Polytheist - Germanic, Greek, Egyptian, Aztec
Monotheist - Christian, Muslim, Jewish
Dharmic - Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto
Secular - generic

That's 12 in all. Just as there are many civs and governments that could be included. My expanded list would also include:

Polytheist - Celtic, Slavic, Babylonian, Chinese
Monotheist - Mithraism
Dharmic - Sikhism
Philosophical - Confucianism, Platonicism, Taoism

Problem is, I don't know enough about these to give any meaningful wonders or traits for the religions. I haven't defined a philosophical class of religion before because confuciansim / Taoism is the only genuine example historically, and they blend into each other a lot as I understand it.

Sects within each religion will be reflected by your particular choice of wonder to build. In some cases, these will be mutually exclusive. If you are Christian and you build the Hagia Sophia, you self-define yourself as "not Protestant", and all "Protestant" wonders are forever locked out from you. Similar restrictions appply for all these religions. Germanic religion civs could build either the Eddas or Beowulf, representing the Scandinavian vs the Anglo-Saxon traditions.

I finally decided that it would be non-PC to make an official divide between the 3 main christian sects and not do so for any other religion. This also helps when making schisms. You self-define yourself as a Christian schismatic (ie protsestant) when you build your first protestnt wonder. I don't think it is worth modelling interactions as separate religion with diplomatic penalties though. One other reason for me not defining Protestantism as a separate religion is that they lack any speciifc location that can be called a holy city, making defining a religious victory impossible under my model.

ETA: I'm coming to think that rather than have all monotheist religions appear as options simultaneously with the monotheism tech, they each get researched independantly. Bear in mind that my research model has religious techs researched blindly in a separate tech tree from other ideas. This way we can stagger the appearance of historical religions to better match their historical appearance.

 

[menwia]

Rhialto - I think you got a pretty solid framework here. Good move to not include the denominations of Christians because you are right - then you'd have to do the same for all the other relgions.

Animist - generic
Polytheist - Germanic, Greek, Egyptian, Aztec
Monotheist - Christian, Muslim, Jewish
Dharmic - Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Sikhism
Secular - generic

I think you should include Sikhism in Dharmic - So in theory you have Five Relgious Classes - Or Four Religous Classes with the Secular really being a non-religion.

For it be even I think we should have the same number of religions within each class. we need another one for the Monotheist Class?

Is it not possible to have four specific religons within the Animist Class? I don't know which ones they would be - but I think it should be equal throughout the Classes. Of course the exception being Secular - cause it is actually a Non-religoin.

You could have the religions within their own specific tech tree - or just incorporate it into the main tech tree. I don't see any problem if its just part of the main one. All you have to do is place the techs appropiately so that they reflect history as accurate as possible - eg can't discover Islam before you discover Christianty.

Also another thought rhialto is, what if civ's started of with no religion, except maybe the civ's with religous traits - they could be the ones who could start off with a Animist Religion to reflect their trait. The other Civ with out a religous trait would not. What u think on the idea?

Apart from that - i think its pretty solid structure. . . It needs perfecting off course but the foundations of it to my knowledge are pretty Sound.

However - one must still answer dh's main point with a Core Religoins Model. Why would a Chritian swap over to a Buddist Religion in a Schism? A very valid point.

P.S. we could even add an that extra Philopshy relgion Class if you want, one just has to make the argument that it is backed up with historical facts. So long as its a valid Relgious Class with true to history Religions - I dont' see why not.