Worst Addition to BTS - Holkans

Fye

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
31
Nothing is less fun then playing online and spawning next to a mayan determined to choke and kill you with holkans. -___- They could have at least made them start without mining, that would at least buy you another 4 turns. It's to the point where Im considering playing babylon, mali or even maya myself when they show up in a game.

Edit: It's 7:30 AM in the morning and this isn't exactly the most relevant section of the board to post in. My apologies, im tired and just felt like getting this out, wasn't exactly putting enough thought in to it however.. *curses the board for not having a delete feature*
 
bring out those dog soldiers and you wont have a problem eh?
 
Axemen are your friends.

It's funny that when BTS was first released many people were bemoaning the fact that you had to research Bronze Working to build the Holkan. I think the Mayans are just about perfect from a power level perspective. Their Holkans are very good for defending expansion in the early game but aren't powerful enough to be taking cities.
 
What I find arbitrarily annoying is when you're playing an OCC and you get quests to build stables/forges/etc in seven different cities.

Sure, you can just ignore it, but when the RNG decides that you get a quest, it shouldn't be thrown away on something you can't use.
 
I hate it when you get a quest to build 7 libraries by the renaissance era when you have 6 cities, are one turn away from education and in a tight liberalism race.
 
I hate it when you get a quest to build 7 libraries by the renaissance era when you have 6 cities, are one turn away from education and in a tight liberalism race.

I got that quest when I already had 7 libraries (the 7th build the turn I got the quest, I think) with Gr Library scheduled to be done in 3 more turns. I lost a free scientist and got a piddly +2 beakers in my capital's library instead. OH THE HUMANITY.
 
You people are missing the point. In multiplayer on a small map with 5-6 people(or even a standard with 7), you run the risk of your capital location being very close to the mayans. In this situation they simply have to research bronze working. They're gauranteed to be able to slave/chop a holkan within 10 turns of founding their capital. You on the other hand may have to build a second city several turns away to secure copper. Consider you need to A)Build/chop/slave a settler B) Build roads to your bronze location C) build a mine on your copper. Yes you can found directly on top of bronze, however this doesn't always make for the best city, and still chances are the other player will see the road and pillage it, meaning youre waiting for an axeman from a newly founded city and it's still going to be awhile before it comes out.

A player who rushes you like this can choke you and prevent you from improving your land or secure military resources before you really have a chance to build axemen. It's much akin to the mali skirmisher rush. It allows someone to cripple or even take another player out of the game early, and really doesn't require much thought to be able to do so.

When you play online theres always a chance that someone is going to do something annoying(and stupid), like sit there building warriors to rush you with while youre building your first worker. Of course this is bound to fail after a matter of time, it's still going to slow you down in relevance to everyone else in the game who didn't have 4 enemy warriors playing around next to their capital about the time they were looking to found their second city. This just gives annoying players like that stronger ammunition.

Anyway I shouldn't have posted this here. -_-
 
When you play online theres always a chance that someone is going to do something annoying(and stupid), like sit there building warriors to rush you with while you're building your first worker.

I see why this may be annoying, but if that person beats you then how is that stupid of them? Just sayin.
 
Wasn't really planning to respond to this again, however..

I see why this may be annoying, but if that person beats you then how is that stupid of them? Just sayin.

At which point did I mention them beating me? On the contrary, if you have any level of literacy then this statement,
Myself-_- said:
Of course this is bound to fail after a matter of time, it's still going to slow you down..
should suggest to you that they in fact don't beat me.

Also for the record, I haven't referred to this usage of Holkans as stupid, on the contrary I've actually employed some early pressure with Holkans myself, and they aren't a civ I've played more than a couple times. Does that make it any better in terms of balance? While it may seem fine and dandy to those who play singleplayer, you have to realise multiplayer isn't exactly the same ballgame.

Finally, I don't really see the point to your post either, besides trying to be a personal jab. And all I can say to that is- are you one of those people who'd rather waste your time selfdestructing on your neighbour rather than trying to win? Sure this may be a valid tactic in 1v1(which is rather silly to begin with if you ask me), it's not going to win you many ffa or cton games. But hey, I guess for some people the chance at taking 1 person out of 5 or more is a job well done.

Seriously would appreciate if this just dies now, I should have had the amazing foresight earlier to realise this wasn't exactly a good place to post if I expected feedback from players with online experience or knowledge. But I'm sure I went over this from the first post in the topic :/.
 
damn, bro. i don't see any sort of personal jab or slander in his post. In fact I think you've gone that extra mile. This post has nothing to offer your thread more than to ask you not to take a statement that is clearly not offensive to heart. Relax, man.
 
I am very tempted to get the BTS because I like the forst are now "full" towns and several other features; but as I read what is new in the game I saw several strongly unbalanced things. So I decided to wait couple of months until tha game is really tested (by the players) and balanced.
 
I am very tempted to get the BTS because I like the forst are now "full" towns and several other features; but as I read what is new in the game I saw several strongly unbalanced things. So I decided to wait couple of months until tha game is really tested (by the players) and balanced.

I gotta say it's more balanced then warlords as far as AI play. I am using Solvers patch which I think is good.

There are things people will argue about regarding BTS, seams like AI teching slower is one. But on the whole the AI is more difficult to beat, the AI is more unpredictable (as far as teching, types of wins, declaring and runnign wars), and the game does not stagnate in the industrial/modern era as with warlords.
 
Fye, I was merely pointing out that a warrior rush can sometimes be effective. It's an opportunistic strategy but it can sometimes pay off in MP, such as in your example where you are building your first worker and someone shows up with a bunch of warriors. Therefore it isn't always "stupid." Didn't mean to offend you.
 
Heh, I have a fond memory of a one-warrior "rush" I did in a MP game; my opponent stuck his own warrior on to defend his first worker, figuring I wouldn't risk losing the warrior, but I attacked - I can replace a warrior VERY easily, while taking his worker pretty much wins me the game then and there.

You have to think very differently in MP than in SP. The risk/reward situation can be completely different - in SP trying to take the worker by attacking is probably a losing proposition because the AI is not a threat in the same way as a human. Thus, the point is entirely valid, I think, about Holkans - a mess of early four-strength units in SP does little but choke your own economy because they're not going to take cities; the other AI then take off and leave you behind. (Though I think people are often too timid when it comes to giving an AI neighbor a major hamstring in the early game - running around pillagining with a couple chariots, maybe picking up a worker should always be considered, even when planning towards a peaceful victory.) A mess of four-strength units in MP does wonders because you don't care about being left behind; if you're not aggressive towards your neighbor you run the risk of your neighbor being aggressive instead and then you won't even be left.
 
A mess of four-strength units in MP does wonders because you don't care about being left behind; if you're not aggressive towards your neighbor you run the risk of your neighbor being aggressive instead and then you won't even be left.
First off, you should care about being left behind, in a free for all setting. Unless your intention isn't to completely win the game, in which case you're already planning to lose..

With that aside, the question isn't whether or not it works, it's whether or not you feel it's too powerful in a multiplayer setting. On a 1:1 human vs human battle the holkan rush is always advantageous to the person employing it, and in certain cases can be nearly impossible to ward off. Only a few civs have a gauranteed counter (Mali, Hammurabi, other mayans...). In a multiplayer setting this type of uu isn't what id consider a fair bonus, it's more like turning the pace of the early game completely upside down and tilting it towards one players favor.

Most multiplayer starts are generally warrior(or pre-build)/worker, since it's advantageous to get your first worker out as early as possible.You can't simply worker first, since the threat of your capital being taken by another civs starting warrior is very real. It's not really advantageous to build a warrior, then start on another right away, since the best you can do is possibly force their worker to move and then you'll likely lose your warrior a few turns later to two of their warriors or an archer. With holkans you can build a 4 strength unit practically right away after your first warrior, with a bit of a pre-build on your worker before hand. A 4 strength unit at this point of the game is very hard to remove from your land, and subsequent holkans and even axeman/chariots etc. can be added later to bolster this initial attack.

Basically your only option to stop this attack is to grab bronze working and pray you can get copper in a good spot and connected before the holkan arrives. Grabbing copper as early as possible is standard in multiplayer, but you have much more leeway since normally the other player has to connect their copper as well. If you start without mining you're already far behind, and in certain conditions you may want to grab a food tech such as agriculture or AH first. With proper scouting you can have an idea how long it'll take before they have metal, but with maya near by such a thought isn't even applicable.

Also illram, rushing with warriors is always stupid. Unless you're playing someone very bad, it's going to fail. The only outcome is that youre going to be deadlocked in a long stagnant war, slowing both you and the other persons progress significantly. You may win the war eventually, but even if you do you're practically gauranteed to lose the match. In a game where you have several other opponents to deal with as well this isn't exactly a desireable goal to aim for.
 
Fye: the thread seems more relevant to multiplayer than strategy and tips. Why not ask a Moderator to move it?
 
I think it's pretty obvious from the edit in the initial post that I would expect a moderator to move it if he/she happened to notice. I honestly wouldn't mind if the thread was deleted in its entirety since the discussion is far from what I intended. However, i'm not going to explicitly go out of my way to ask a moderator to move it. If they want to do their job it's fine, and if they don't thats fine too. Rather, if it bothers you so much perhaps you could contact the moderator on your own and make the request, as opposed to adding more offtopic and completely obvious dirt to an already terrible thread?
 
If you keep being so aggressive, maybe the moderators will indeed have to do their job...
 
Back
Top Bottom