Worst Addition to BTS - Holkans

[SickCycle]

I also don't play 1 on 1 where you can totally screw up your longterm game by totally focusing on a less then optimal rush that will only work half the time, and by doing so leaving yourself open and behind in the later game with the other players.

 

[Alsn]

Do realize that pretty much no MP game is ever NOT going to have a small map with close starting locations and not everyone enforces "all random" which makes the problem alot bigger than it seems.

Also, i fail to see how toning down the holkans ridiculously early viability would affect single player?

Edit for clarification: my comment was in response to travathian's statement a few posts up.

Edit2: and sickcycle pretty much every single argument youve made either points to "i have never seen what you are talking about and thus it must be fine" or "i was mayans and didnt use holkans so thus they cant be good" which frankly makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[SickCycle]

What I'm saying is that anytime someone has "tried" to holkan rush me it doesn't work, they don't even go through with it.

By the time they have holkans I have axes, it's as simple as that, I may only have one or two axes for there six or eight holkans but one or two axes is enough to keep a holkan rush from happening in the first place.

I think you guys are just slow and instead of getting better at it you want to nerf a unit instead so you can keep playing with the certain build orders you find optimal.. even though they're obviously less then optimal since you can't even handle a handful of str4 holkans.

If there is a holkan player next to you and they are running around your borders and you can tell they are gonna rush grab archery if your that afraid they are gonna use some gold to upgrade a warrior and start pillaging.

Also, like you said if they are talking about the one in twenty games where you start basically touching borders at the start.. which I've only had happen a handful of times then... so what, grab archers do what you can, if you die you die, the map generator screwed you, that is all.

I just rushed someone that started with a scout with my starting warrior earlier.. does that mean we should nerf warriors cuz he died in the first five turns?

Maybe leaders shouldn't be allowed to start with warriors? or everyone should get either a warrior or scout?.. Sorry, I don't think so, he just got a bad roll.

 

[travathian]

Do realize that pretty much no MP game is ever NOT going to have a small map with close starting locations and not everyone enforces "all random" which makes the problem alot bigger than it seems.

Also, i fail to see how toning down the holkans ridiculously early viability would affect single player?

I fail how to see your inability to play anything but the exact same map settings in MP should affect every one else.

 

[SickCycle]

The whole point of the holkan is to be available very early in the game since there civilization was very early in mankind, that's the entire point of it.

You should be able to have holkans before phalanxs, this game isn't just a strategy game, it's based on civilization and real life, things are put in a real time line of when they were available and appeared in the world, at 3,000BC the mayans are "SUPPOSE" to be one of the most powerful civs in the game.

The game designers obviously agree.

 

[ShunNakamura]

What I'm saying is that anytime someone has "tried" to holkan rush me it doesn't work, they don't even go through with it.

By the time they have holkans I have axes, it's as simple as that, I may only have one or two axes for there six or eight holkans but one or two axes is enough to keep a holkan rush from happening in the first place.

I think you guys are just slow and instead of getting better at it you want to nerf a unit instead so you can keep playing with the certain build orders you find optimal.. even though they're obviously less then optimal since you can't even handle a handful of str4 holkans.

If they wait until they have that many they have waited to long. With a little luck situation the Mayan can have 3 holkans up and going by turn 20. If you start within 8 turns of movement from them they can have your copper blocked before you can get your workers on it. You need two archers per Holkan to dislodge them. With three of them you need at least six archers to break them off of the copper. Your only real option is to try and get a mine or two up[and some forests cut] to quickly pop enough archers to break them out. Thankfully Holkans have only a 1 in 3 chance of taking down an archer on a hill. A forested hill is even better. So try to build some mines to build enough archers to break them.

However, during this time the Mayan can do as he wishes in his own territory expanding etc.

True in a FFA this leaves the Mayan vulnerable. But we never said it wasn't a gamble. Just a major annoyance to the nearby civs.

If you are a solid civ to counter[Native Americans(dogs+high level protective archers) or a civ with hunting and/or mining to start] you can get an extra archer to block their holkans. In addition with a little luck they wouldn't have had enough gold to upgrade all three. So you may only have to deal with 2 or maybe even 1. However the one holkan alone could cost you both archers with a little luck on the Holkan's side and will definitely fry one of your archers.


As to the other paragraph I quoted.
A) I have never played online. What I am saying is merely theoretical conjecture based on the statistics and information on it.
B) I rarely have used the same build order. I like playing around even if it ends up less than optimal.