Worst Addition to BTS - Holkans

[PieceOfMind]

Fye, if you're still listening...

I feel your pain. I experience the same frustration whenever I see players choose to play as the Incans or Rome. (This was when I was playing with vanilla MP by the way.) 9 times out of 10 you can expect a rush with the UU. It's ok in one sense because I then prepare for and expect a rush from them, and for some reason I get some sick pleasure at fighting off the hordes of UUs, to the attacker's disappointment. It's especially funny when they become frustrated with the failed UU invasion and quit the game, complaining about something like they need to catch their dog or that they had a bad start location anyway. If I may be arrogant for one moment, I like teaching the noobs a lesson!
I've said this before, but I never play as civs where such exploitable UUs exist. Yes, they are technically not exploits but I believe using them in a rush is a cheap trick and says nothing for one's multiplayer skills. I haven't played enough online BtS to see these players yet but I'd definitely believe they still exist. This Holkan you speak of must be the next one to look out for.

 

[Thalatta]

Fye, I know that on the one hand being left behind DOES matter in MP, but my point is that sometimes you have to beat one opponent to even have a chance at the others, and sticking a bunch of Holkans around someone's capitol does a pretty good job of that. Neutralizing your neighbor is going to be worth the hit to your GNP because it's one less threat and you'll have the space they would have expanded into available to you.

In other words, I am agreeing with you.

(In that I can see how they are overpowered in MP.)

 

[SickCycle]

I've never had a problem with holkan rushes, I actually find them ineffective.

 

[ShunNakamura]

So Fye, what is your idea to balance them?

Their strength over the regular spear is that they don't need copper to build[which I like because I always thought to make spears useful you should have them before you have axes] and they have immunity to first strikes. Perhaps lower its strength by 1 and giving it a slightly larger bonus to mounted units to make up the difference so that they can still block Horse Archers?


As for the suicide in MP games. I did that from time to time in AoE II. Primarily what the case was I knew that they guy I attacked on the other team was the strongest on their team[and stronger than both my allies]. In addition I had played with him before and saw him take on 2 people around my allies skill level and win when given time to build up[economic monster he was]. So I suicided myself on him in the early game. I slowed him long enough for my allies to knock down 1 of his teammates and weaken the other. So know he was against two people with decent military might with an ally whose military had been weakened when he didn't get his economy into a monster position. We didn't win but the match was much more even than I feared it would be. If only the random had given me a Civ with a decent early rush... as it was I was one of the late game monster civs. So suicide attacks have their use. Sometimes slowing a powerful foe can be more important than your own victory[if you are going to lose you may as well make an impact on the game].

 

[Fye]

I've never had a problem with holkan rushes, I actually find them ineffective.

What type of online matches do you play? I can see them being less of an issue in a teamer, but in a free for all or a cton it's very hard to deal with. Also the map size, type and the number of civs on the map play a factor as well. I'm specifically talking about close capital starts, where you're within 9 or less tiles from eachother.

As far as balancing them, thats hard to say, the problem I see is that if you nerf the unit, the singleplayer crowd is going to complain. As if I'm correct a lot of the people playing single player already feel the unit is weak. My personal opinion is that a UU replacing a bronze equivalent without the resources is just too much.

Lowering it's strength by 1, so archers could deal with them would certainly solve the early rushing problem, but what kind of bonus should they obtain to compensate? A 175% bonus vs mounted? Perhaps a 50% vs melee as well(making them slightly stronger vs axeman, but still at a losing %)? I kind of like this idea, the holkan would be a powerful alternative to the regular spearmen, while crippled in such a way that you cant blindly rush them at a neighbour.

Mind you, you still have to research archery, and for a civ without hunting and mining this could pose a serious issue to your tech order. Even when you do pick up archery you generally don't do so before getting bronze working first. Beelining hunting > archery doesn't make for the most powerful start, and if they bring one of these new holkans before archery the threat of them attacking your city and winning is better than it was before..

Also: I just realised dog soldier requires no copper either, you can imagine my new headache. However I haven't really seen anyone using this civ online. Native america at least doesn't have mining so it's a bit slower.. In warlords the only 4 strength unit that came so early was Mali's skirmisher, but now we have 3 in bts?

 

[Innawerkz]

You people are missing the point. In multiplayer on a small map with 5-6 people(or even a standard with 7), you run the risk of your capital location being very close to the Mayans. In this situation they simply have to research bronze working. They're gauranteed to be able to slave/chop a holkan within 10 turns of founding their capital. You on the other hand may have to build a second city several turns away to secure copper. Consider you need to A)Build/chop/slave a settler B) Build roads to your bronze location C) build a mine on your copper. Yes you can found directly on top of bronze, however this doesn't always make for the best city, and still chances are the other player will see the road and pillage it, meaning youre waiting for an axeman from a newly founded city and it's still going to be awhile before it comes out.

I'm confused. Don't Mayans need to research Hunting, also? Two technologies, a Warrior than Worker does not sound like an effective rush to me.

Which civ are you playing that you could not get - at a minimum - two archers to suicide against his initial holkan? Hell, 3 Warriors can take a Holkan down for only 10 more. Maybe even the second one will win!

 

[SickCycle]

Honestly, I don't really get this whole holkan are overpowered and need to be nerfed thing..

I just finished a online game Small/Pangaea and I didn't rush with holkan, I was about to granted, I had popped some huts beelined to bronze like I always do and used the hut gold to upgrade three warriors to holkan asap. I had a warrior circling the guys borders and as soon as I saw a promoted archer I went back home.

If your going with a real rush and actually pump out 6-8 Holkan before you march then I don't see why the player shouldn't have copper or horse by that time..

Chop, Slave, Lay an early road to the copper/city, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to have a copper source hooked up by the time they have 6-8 holkan.. Laying a road down before your settler is out lets him get there asap and hooks up the resource immediatly, if you can build/slave/whip even one axe, I guarantee they won't attack you.

Once I have my first axe out I always patrol it around the edge of my borders to let them see it or if they aren't coming my way I take it to there borders let them know whats up. It lets them know I have copper which is bad in a way but it always keeps them from rushing me extremely early, they will always goto another player if they see you with an axe that early.

Psychological warfare

Online isn't a sandbox game, if you have a mayan player next to you and you don't think you can hook up copper before they can get to you and you really are that nervous and "THAT" close then the first thing you should do is nab a barracks and pump out some archers.

You don't always get to follow your "perfect" build order, it's a strategy game, other players can and should be able to influence your tech path and how you play the game, even on Single Player they should be able to, which is why I only play with Aggressive AI (BtS).

It's just ******** to sit there and dictate the flow of the game, it's not about following the "correct" build path, it's about knowing what you need to play a certain map/location/opponent(leader) and countering his strategy correctly.

For instance.. protective is widely seen as a useless trait, but answer me one question: Would you rush a protective leader?

Just like in real life, you have to not only know your opponent and his leader but yours and yourself as well, if your weakness is countering early rushes then use a leader that compliments you like a protective leader, pick a leader that fills in the gaps and lets you focus on what your best at.

People are waaaay to into what is the "perfect" strategy or "perfect" trait combo.. the "perfect" synergy.

If your a good player it shouldn't matter, and you should do exactly what I suggest, instead of finding a leader you like, Identify your weakness in the game, what your lacking most at, we all have something were not as good at and then find a leader that excels in that department to balance you out.

Dog Soldiers are hooooorrible rushers, they are 4 str axeman, that means you don't get axes ever and they only have 4 str and unlike the holkan they don't even get immunity to first strikes.. archers tear them to pieces.

This reminds me of Immortals, everyone and there mother goes around saying how great Immortals are for early rushes.. It just isn't true, as far as I'm concerned, they are sooooooo easy to counter if people just get off there I don't wanna get off my preplanned/predetermined game plan.. before they even see the game.. It doesn't make any sense.

Anytime I've ever rushed with Immortals, honestly, I take the cities usually, but it's at such a high cost it's completely pointless, it totally messes up the rest of my game. It takes me a huuuuuuge stack to take a capital city with just Immortals if they start pumping out archers, if the city is holy or on a hill.. forget about it.

I just don't get it.

 

[SickCycle]

They do, they need hunting + bronze and Mayans aren't aggressive so unless you pop a barracks they are completely un promoted.. I just don't get it. On top of all that, Mayans are financial and start with mysticism so many mayan players will grab a early religion first since it's pretty much guaranteed and if they do that they can't rush, period.

Unless your extremely quick, like what I was talking about to use hut gold to pop a couple while they still only have 2-3 warriors in there city, it just doesn't work that well in actual application, at least it's never been done to me successfully.

... I dunno, myabe I'm special, but most threads I read about holkans is how they are underpowered and how even though they "looked" like good rushers they really don't work that well and it's best to stick with axes.

The best rushes I have are with Shaka and his Impi and I barely use the Impi I just pump out a couple like a 2 stack then go pillage any worker/copper/horse if they have a new city with a single warrior I nab that and then I slave/chop 6-8 axes and roll right over them. Shaka is beautiful for it, he's expansive for quicker worker times and double granaries, hes aggressive for the free city raider promotion/healer/whatever, he starts with hunting which gives you a early scout to find your neighbor and opens up his Impi for free, his agriculture usually ends up being great since it lets you plant some farms and start whipping out those axes..

If anything you should be complaining about shaka for an early rush, last time I played him I just dropped my second city "ON" a copper source and I had Impi at his front door before he even hit enter, by the time my stack of axes showed up he quit.

 

[ShunNakamura]

Lowering it's strength by 1, so archers could deal with them would certainly solve the early rushing problem, but what kind of bonus should they obtain to compensate? A 175% bonus vs mounted? Perhaps a 50% vs melee as well(making them slightly stronger vs axeman, but still at a losing %)? I kind of like this idea, the holkan would be a powerful alternative to the regular spearmen, while crippled in such a way that you cant blindly rush them at a neighbour.

I wouldn't give them a melee bonus. But 150% or 175% vs mounted would make them more effective than spearmen against what they are supposed to counter. Add in the no resource requirement and they are a very powerful mounted counter. This would make them similar to Mr. Dog. weaker base strength but a huge bonus vs. what they are supposed to counter. Add in the Holkan immunity to first strike and you got the ultimate Horse Archer counter[particularly since you can't stop their production through pillaging].


SickCycle I think you are forgetting that Holkans have more strength AND immunity to first strikes against archers. You need to easily outnumber them to force them out. The goal of such a rush isn't to take the city it is to cripple them by pillaging with only a few units. And the holkans are prime for this. They come before their counter, archers can't beat them on the offense, and warriors are even worse than the archers. Therefore, the Holkans can run around your territory constantly pillaging and Denying you from hooking up your copper. Your only recourse is to tech to archer[if you don't have it] and build archers until you out number them. In the mean time they have been unhindered likely have copper hooked up and can now axe rush your weakened position to take your city.

 

[PieceOfMind]

You could always just refuse to play someone choosing the Mayans in a game where such rushing is possible (and likely). If you're playing people you know or good players they probably won't mind that and pick a different civ. If you're playing people you don't know then they won't care. You've got every right to choose who you play.

 

[xen01]

Not true for online games types like ladder cton's. The civ's are all random and if your neighbor does a holkan rush. It's hard to be in the running for number one.

 

[SickCycle]

I just think people need to get over this I refuse to research archery shtick

Man, I almost got smoked earlier from a Quecha rush... Now those are scary. I had to slave out a bunch of warriors and use them to make a line between my capital and a copper source i was sooooo lucky enough to get in my capital and then hook it up through the fortified line of warriors, upgraded one to a axe and all his Quecha ran away

 

[Fye]

SickCycle, it's not about taking their cities it's about pillaging their land and denying them the ability to get metal. Even if you go mining -> bronze working - > hunting - > archery, they have plenty of time to get a holkan or two in your land to start pillaging etc. Even if you do get an archer out before the first holkan arrives , they still have free reign until you get a second one. Unless you want to gamble throwing some warriors at it (which can turn out badly if the RNG isn't on your side).

Trying to force the first holkan out is going to require at least two archers, three if you're unlucky. It's going to be even worse if they move the holkan to a forested hill. I realise not every game is the same, and sometimes you have to adapt but do you expect me to research hunting-> archery as my opening techs, and then sit there building archers in my capital? I assure you you aren't going to win very many ctons with this sort of opening strategy.

I remember i was checking out a civ4 ladder tournament, for 1v1, and I was turned off because most people were picking mali. They pick mali because they know if they can get some skirmishers and fortify on your copper it's only a matter of time before they beat you, and I think the mayan holkan rush is stronger then the old mali abuse was. The tech requirement for holkans is bronze working, so it's very easy to know where the opponents bronze is and camp it. Besides that, the mali rush never really bothered me since in a free for all a mali isn't as inclined to go hunting-> archery first, whereas researching bronzeworking first as Mayans is pretty much a given. That and the fact that Mali just aren't very popular online for whatever reason.

On the flipside you refer to the quechua rush as scary, whereas I've never had any sort of problem with a quechua rush. They're 2 power just like your warriors, it's not so much of a big deal. They have travel time so if you see it coming it's not hard to have an extra warrior compared to their quechua. They can't attack your warriors if you have beneficial tile defence, Holkans on the other hand are much scarier. I would rather have an enemy show up with 4 quechuas while I have 2 warriors then an enemy show up with a single holkan. Dog soldiers may be even worse, but with the added hindrance of researching mining it's somewhat more likely youll have copper or horses connected already, but I can't quite comment on this yet.

I wouldn't give them a melee bonus. But 150% or 175% vs mounted would make them more effective than spearmen against what they are supposed to counter.

You're right, the melee bonus might be overkill, but I don't think they'd be the strongest UU by any means. I'm just throwing out ideas. I suggested this as most people consider the dog soldier weak even though it does better in its niche role while being worse overall. I was trying to be somewhat generous. An archery requirement(only while no copper is connected) would take care of the problem, but then the UU isn't really anything special besides something to fall back on in case you are extremely unlucky and unable to get early metal...

 

[PieceOfMind]

Not true for online games types like ladder cton's. The civ's are all random and if your neighbor does a holkan rush. It's hard to be in the running for number one.

That's a good point.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Game issues aside, it's amusing the Maya get an UU with 100% bonus against mounted units that never existed in native America.

 

[Thalatta]

Perhaps one way to balance the Holkans would be to, ironically, reduce the mounted unit bonus? Then chariots could at least mop up damaged Holkans while still being useful to build for countering later axemen.

 

[madscientist]

Well I do not play on-line only against the AI. But I really do not see the Holikan as overpowered.

1) Mayans need to tech BW and hunting. ANY other leader can tech hunting and archery fatster than BW and hunting even with the financial edge of the Mayans. Start off with hunting and it s non-issue.
2) Seams to me (I have not played as Maya yet) the Mayans are built for an early religion and fast economy, it doesn't seam in their best interest to be Holkan rushing.
3) A little geographical defense??? Forrests and hills make great defenses.
4) Sitting Bulls dog warriors should be eating Holkans for lunch (100% against Holkan with same strength???). You have to tech Mining and BW compared with hunting/BW, not much of a difference even with financial Maya.

A definitely do not see any reason to nerf holkans.

 

[travathian]

Ok, so the Holkans are overpowered if the following conditions are met:

Small map
Close starting locations
MP game
Mayans are are randomly chosen by the game
Mayans are a civ adjacent to you
Mayans are controlled by a human player


How again does this make it the worst addition to BtS? It doesn't, sorry. Even if you chose civs in advance, there are plenty of counters to this strategy.

 

[Thalatta]

It may be situational, but have you ever had someone sitting around your capitol with half a dozen units before 2000 BC? It's not much fun.

 

[SickCycle]

Your all very much more intelligent then me

I still have just never had a problem with holkan rushing, by the time I see the mayan player with holkans I've either had an axe out or some chariots.

I only play in the ffa lobby matches so maybe it's just the caliber of player is lower

I also usually play as Shaka a lot and he's extremely fast in the opening game, he has great synergy with slaving and early rushing, may be part of it.

I'd like to note that Quecha rush I was talking about.. well.. didn't work It was just scary seeing a stack of Quecha flooding into my capital and fortifying everywhere lol but even with a "QUECHA RUSH" I had copper hooked up a couple turns after he started flooding my borders lol....

Granted, I had copper in my fat cross