Worst Civ in the Game??

Completely agree that India should probably be one of the religious civs, India has the largest Hindu, Janist, Sikh, and Baha'is in the world. As well as the 3rd largest Muslim population, as well as Buddhism tracing it's roots there.

Proportionally India seems like it has a high population density, but it's still the seventh largest country in the world.

India needs a buff in the terms of

A. Nuclear Weaponry to fuel the ongoing joke of -1 in unsigned packets (Ah, the good old DOS days)

B. Population Growth. Its UA wouldn't be so bad if say the citizens were born twice as fast. It would actually make for very good infrastructure games with tradition.

C. Religion. I'm thinking something along the lines of +1 faith per citizen, or buffing their UB or UU (No idea who/what they are, I've been able to go a whole game without really noticing a huge difference)

D. Perhaps a great person for religion. In my opinion having Buddha-Themed Unit as a great prophet would be entertaining. His ability could be (To reflect upon the Buddhist migration to china) would be that any civilization with borders to the country would gain a 20% population change to the founded religion when founding or adding beliefs to a religion.

E. Decreased penalties from a puppet IE the puppet would contribute as much to the civilization as a Annexed city would. It doesn't really reflect much upon a stereotype or even the history but it would go hand in hand with the UA to balance the game.

F. Very Blatant. Half the cost of Missionaries and Inquisitors before the Modern Era.

G. +1 delegate in the world congress. Again, very blatant.


This was my sudden and probably off topic brainstorm for how to balance India.
 
India's UA is very powerful.

Their UU is good.

Their UB is pretty terrible.

Overall, I would still put them as a high mid tier civ, because of their UA.
 
What if India's UA would get a +5 or 10 turns of We Love The King Day? After all, there is no civ with an UA that involves WLTKD. Then again, we all know those times when a city wants the one lux that only is one or two of... At the other side of the world before you know it even exists.

But it would synergize well and hopefully not be too powerful IMO.
 
Egypt is a great synergy civ. There's more to them than just the Wonder bonus. The Wonder bonus itself stacks with other producton modifiers from beliefs and buildings.

Not to mention, national wonders are affected by the UA. Doesn't seem like much, but having a National College a few turns earlier is pretty cool beans.
 
India's UA is very powerful.

Their UU is good.

Their UB is pretty terrible.

Overall, I would still put them as a high mid tier civ, because of their UA.

How is India's UA 'very powerful'?
 
"Celts: Probably the best civ on my 'worst civs' list but only because Pictish Warrior is redeemable great. Otherwise they're trash."
-Waatt???? The Celts are the civ that is guaranteed a religion without any effort and on any difficulty. Also, I love forest tiles to chop. The Celts aren't meant to have the strongest religion like Byz. but instead to get the first grabs while they focus on anything else. I honestly think the Celts are better than the Mayans in terms of reliability.

Also, Sweden is one of my best Immortal civs. All I do is go scout, monument, go honor then free gg, gift to culture city state for 90 influence, use that to fill up tradition fast, go back to honor and get the 50% experience then just do non stop declaration of friendships while warring with a few civs for the free city states. I've gotten very easy victories with them before where I could choose any victory condition besides domination by turn 270 on standard speed. \
I'd honestly put Sweden down up their with Poland, Mayans and Celts as a top tier versatile civ.
 
top tier 'versatile' civ and top tier period are two different things. Sure Maya, Sweden, Poland and even Celts give you options.

But calling them better (or even as good) as Shoshone or Arabia? Come on now... And if you're going to talk about Versatile civs, how is Babylon not even on your list?
 
Poland beats out everyone, Sweden has always been a powerhouse with me, and Maya, Ethiopia and Celts have religion based strategies.

A good Civ player will plan out the most effective plan, and work towards it.

A great Civ player will adapt himself to the situation and win in the worst circumstances.
 
top tier 'versatile' civ and top tier period are two different things. Sure Maya, Sweden, Poland and even Celts give you options.

But calling them better (or even as good) as Shoshone or Arabia? Come on now... And if you're going to talk about Versatile civs, how is Babylon not even on your list?

I am much better with Sweden then I am with Arabia and Shoshone. Shoshone gets a land grab early which could mean snowball but could also mean nothing. I've had time when I only got 2 ruins with them and not only did I only get 2 ruins, my scouting was terrible because of all the city states and civs it took forever to meet because of the cost of the Pathfinder. I'd personally say that the Celts are more consistent early than the Shoshone, unless you play on deity and sell everything for max and take advantage of the AI's lack of Jewish advisers.

Sweden in my opinion is actually better than Arabia. I like the Bazaar, camel archer, and desert start bias, but in multi player, Arabia gets teamed up against before the camel archers come onto the scene, same with the Mongols and Keshiks. So, a really fearsome UU like the Camels aren't all that good. Also, the best UU is Artillary. Sweden has an easy street of DOFs in both single player and multi player, and doing strat I explained makes Sweden a combination of Aztecs and Venice but better.

I wanted to get good with Aztecs, no doubt, but the culture per kill actually screwed up my Rationalism timing on the Renaissance. Sweden gets in most games, GP 50% faster through their ability, which also mean:

25% through gardens
25% through national epic
25% through pisa
25% through ideology and other social policies.


GP as Sweden come so unbelievably fast and Sweden's UA actually makes every single GP including GG, Great Admiral, Great Musician(if not going culture), basically the equivalence to the Great Merchant without the downside of slower GS and GE...actually those 2 come faster. Much faster.

The only thing I'd personally trade is pantheons. Either Desert Folklore shouldn't work on flood plains or Dance of Aura should work on tiles with forests. That is the only reason I'd put Arabia anywhere near Sweden, and it really has nothing initially to do with either civ.




The reason why I bought this up BTW is because both of these civs I'm defending were considered to be some of the "worst in the game". I'll see if I can dig up a save of Sweden where I ran away so fast doing the strat I explained, or I'll end up making another and taking pics if you are in doubt.
 
Gah, it causes cringes everytime someone dosent include the Iroquois when saying "Worst civs". The special parts of them equal to 0, if not worse. +++++++++If someone gave me a civ with no uniques, no start bias etc., they would still be better than Iroquois. +++++++++

UA- Nothing, unless you play on Boreal, (who does?)

UU- Maybe will save you in rare occurences, but WHO CARES about a bit of combat ability in Forests and no Iron. You dont even build Swordsmen that much.

UB- Not better in any way than the workshop, maybe even worse. Most cases, I would take a Worskhop over a Longhouse.

Its basically a generic civ, except slightly worse.

+++++++++If someone gave me a civ with no uniques, no start bias etc., they would still be better than Iroquois. +++++++++

so basically Napoleon then?
 
I think the consensus is coming around now that

1.) The Celts were oversold a bit surrounding the G+K release, but now that the initial disappointment is past, and the power of religious synergies is better worked out, and the social policy trees changed with BNW, The Celts have been finding their way into a pretty high tier. Not God Tier, but definitely solid.

2.) Sweden are an extremely odd duck, arguably much more of a "hypercube" than Venice, because at least with Venice the way to play them is extremely clear, whereas with Sweden it took a lot of working out, but Sweden played properly are apparently also very, very good.

I'd consider Versatility one of the top factors in choosing which civs are "best" and "worst." If you're playing a high level, and have picked, say, Babylon for science victory at the outset, and then meet Korea, you've got some thinking to do (a little less so the other way around, as Sejong always beelines Writing and cares about the Great Library, while Nebby bizarrely is always last to get to Writing among the AI, for some reason.) Likewise picking Diplo early on and meeting Alexander, picking Culture and meeting Pedro, picking Domination and meeting Genghis Khan, etc. Being able to adapt and change strategy is absolutely crucial.

In that light, the general tiers don't change all that much, necessarily. Poland is still at the top, the most versatile of civs by far, easily able to pursue any victory condition and shift easily to any other. Korea is probably next, if only because its UUs edge out Babylon's in the long run (Mongolia is going to have a much tougher time rolling a science-focused peaceful Korea than a similar Babylon, whose defensive bonuses have more or less obsoleted by the Medieval period) but both are going to be able to use their science lead to allow for versatility if need be.

Then we get a civ like Inca, with various small but extremely useful bonuses to production, growth, gold and movement. Science is obviously the most important single aspect for victory - the best players, and I am certainly not among them, have said so repeatedly - but I know that for me, hammers are what I care most deeply about in the beginning. The Inca bring them, and a lot of other important early bonuses. Rome and Egypt also bring them, with solid UU/UB to help along the way. Aztec is hampered by both having no production bonus and a jungle start bias, but their Uniques are synergistic in a way that allows for an absolute powerhouse of major population growth, the strongest culture start in the game, and early CS alliances that more than make up for it. Far from being a simple Domination-engine like it might first appear, the Aztec are among those most versatile in the game. The Maya are like a different design of what makes Poland so great, and have to be mentioned here as well.

Then we get the Economic Civs. A runaway economy can create the other factors needed for just about any win condition. Venice is obviously the biggest gun, economy-wise, but is a glass-cannon and can't really be considered top-tier in all situations, especially in MP where they will just be rolled ASAP. When we talk about Economic Civs, we're really talking about Arabia, Portugal and Morocco, any of whom you should be frightened of in the hands of a player who has any idea of what they're doing. The Dutch UA deserves a mention here as well, though they were designed for G=K and left in the dust by the changes in BNW in a lot of ways, particularly the lux-for-lump-sum exploit that made them so crazy good in the G+K days. Their UU and UI are still pretty great, though.

There is a fine but crucial difference, though, between "Versatile" and "Unfocused," and that's where we find the bottom tier. Well, lack of focus or else a focus that doesn't amount to anything. A lot of this depends on the player and strategy, of course. Post-patch France is weak, to be sure, and the Musketeer adds little if anything to the UA and UI, which don't really shine until the second half of a culture game anyway, but France still has advantages that can work for it. Similarly, Indonesia is tough to crack, but their UA and UB scream for advantages with the Liberty tree, and their UU (one of the best in the game) sort of demands expansion with its Iron requirement.

"Unfocused," here, means something like Byzantium, whose UUs don't necessarily mesh together, and come at the same time you'd need to be focusing on faith-output (which the UUs don't do anything to help with) in order to get anything from the UA at all. "Don't add up to much" means Denmark, whose abilities need extremely specific conditions to be helpful, and even then might not be the best on the map for those conditions.

At the center of the Venn Diagram of "Unfocused" and "Don't Add Up to Much" are the Iroquois, focused not on any Victory Condition, but on wood, with benefits it's tough to care about in any real way. They can be played successfully - any civ can - but it is my belief that they are thoroughly the worst, with no clear path to any one victory condition, and no clear way to get ahead of any other civ in anything in particular, and no good tactic for switching paths.
 
How is India's UA 'very powerful'?

A size 10 city effectively has +2 Happiness. A size 14 has +4 Happiness. A size 20 city has +7 Happiness.

Does it stink at the start when it's hard to found cities? Definitely. Is it a massive happiness boost later on? Definitely.
 
At the center of the Venn Diagram of "Unfocused" and "Don't Add Up to Much" are the Iroquois, focused not on any Victory Condition, but on wood, with benefits it's tough to care about in any real way. They can be played successfully - any civ can - but it is my belief that they are thoroughly the worst, with no clear path to any one victory condition, and no clear way to get ahead of any other civ in anything in particular, and no good tactic for switching paths.

I would actually put the Iroquois to "little things that add up" and "economic power" but with an extra clause that makes them low-tier: "terrain-dependent". They're not really all that unfocused. If I'm going by your example with the Byzantines, their uniques actually have good focus. In fact, they all synergize with each other, and they all happen when they most need them: early game.

They're not really all about "Don't Add Up to Much," either. Their start bias allows production boosts early on and road movement on forest tiles mean their workers won't be hampered much by rough terrain and thus get improvements faster than most civs who started on rough terrain. Also, freeing up road maintenance adds more gold with revenue comparable to Portugal's UA. If there's a long stretch of forest tiles, caravans can reach cities that are far away too, comparable to Arabia's UA. All these little things eventually do add up, and they add up a LOT in the long run.

But yeah, they're too dependent on forest tiles to make them work. If you ended up on a map that is unfavorable, terrain-wise, the Iroquois will have a harder time compared to other civs.
 
Man, the fact that people here are claiming that France sucks don't know how Tourism works.

Let's make some calculations with things people can easily get on high levels.

- Broadway
- Louvre
- Museum
- Sistine Chapel
- Hermitage
- Oxford

Full Aesthetics.

Media Culture.

Internet.

Broadway and Hermitage=6(Great Works)+12(Theming Bonuses)+6(Hotel+Airport, GW)+12(Hotel+Airport, TB)+6(NVC, GW)+12(NVC, TB)=54

Museum, Oxford, Sistine=4+8+4+8+4+8=36

Louvre=8+16+8+16+8+16=72

Total Tourism before anything else=288

Media Culture applied=387

Internet=774

France can get 774 Tourism from Great Works only. That's pretty impressive. Compare to another civ with Aesthetics already finished.

Sistine, Museum, Oxford=4+4+4+4+4+4=24

Hermitage, Broadway=6+6+6+6+6+6=36

Louvre=8+8+8+8+8+8=48

Total Tourism: 192

Media Culture applied: 256

Internet=512

France, ignoring everything else it has to offer, is leading by 232 Tourism.

France does not suck. France doesn't need too many wonders. It just needs the Guilds to be built in another city, and another dedicated to Utility Wonders such as: Statue of Liberty, Hubble, Porcelain Tower. Plus, the fact it already starts with doubled up Culture from TB means it's much more likely to finish Acoustics faster than most. Plus I'd rather work a Chateau than a Luxury that isn't Salt or one of the few nearby Mines.
 

Maybe they meant France sucks in multiplayer? I mean, anyone with half a brain wouldn't want to let France build wonders in their capital. Even if it was just a spite wonder, building the Globe Theater in a different city means the potential double theming bonus is lost forever, even if France was able to conquer the city that built it.
 
I put this thread up in the Strategy and Tips Forum hoping to get a little feedback since I wanted to post up a map with the most unpopular Civ. Of course someone said this is not strategy and tips and the thread moved to the General section which is fine. I wish I would of put a poll on this thread now that it has so many views and posts. I looked for the option but I think you can only put a poll on it when you create the thread. If anyone knows if I can put the poll up now please let me know or if the Moderators are reading this and can add the poll it would be much appreciated!
 
Man, the fact that people here are claiming that France sucks don't know how Tourism works.

Let's make some calculations with things people can easily get on high levels.

- Broadway
- Louvre
- Museum
- Sistine Chapel
- Hermitage
- Oxford

Full Aesthetics.

Media Culture.

Internet.

Broadway and Hermitage=6(Great Works)+12(Theming Bonuses)+6(Hotel+Airport, GW)+12(Hotel+Airport, TB)+6(NVC, GW)+12(NVC, TB)=54

Museum, Oxford, Sistine=4+8+4+8+4+8=36

Louvre=8+16+8+16+8+16=72

Total Tourism before anything else=288

Media Culture applied=387

Internet=774

France can get 774 Tourism from Great Works only. That's pretty impressive. Compare to another civ with Aesthetics already finished.

Sistine, Museum, Oxford=4+4+4+4+4+4=24

Hermitage, Broadway=6+6+6+6+6+6=36

Louvre=8+8+8+8+8+8=48

Total Tourism: 192

Media Culture applied: 256

Internet=512

France, ignoring everything else it has to offer, is leading by 232 Tourism.

France does not suck. France doesn't need too many wonders. It just needs the Guilds to be built in another city, and another dedicated to Utility Wonders such as: Statue of Liberty, Hubble, Porcelain Tower. Plus, the fact it already starts with doubled up Culture from TB means it's much more likely to finish Acoustics faster than most. Plus I'd rather work a Chateau than a Luxury that isn't Salt or one of the few nearby Mines.

I don't necessarily mean that France sucks in single player. What I mean is that he is terrible in Multiplayer and he is a barebones, generic civ to play. In Multiplayer, the only way to actually win a culture victory comes through with Great Musicians. In fact, you normally don't want tourism until you even get to the internet technology.
 
I don't necessarily mean that France sucks in single player. What I mean is that he is terrible in Multiplayer and he is a barebones, generic civ to play. In Multiplayer, the only way to actually win a culture victory comes through with Great Musicians. In fact, you normally don't want tourism until you even get to the internet technology.

Maybe people mean France sucks as in France is successful.
 
Then we get the Economic Civs. A runaway economy can create the other factors needed for just about any win condition. Venice is obviously the biggest gun, economy-wise, but is a glass-cannon and can't really be considered top-tier in all situations, especially in MP where they will just be rolled ASAP. When we talk about Economic Civs, we're really talking about Arabia, Portugal and Morocco, any of whom you should be frightened of in the hands of a player who has any idea of what they're doing. The Dutch UA deserves a mention here as well, though they were designed for G=K and left in the dust by the changes in BNW in a lot of ways, particularly the lux-for-lump-sum exploit that made them so crazy good in the G+K days. Their UU and UI are still pretty great, though.
Doesnt' get much more economic than Persia. Nonstop golden ages my friend.
 
I don't quite like the fact that Egypt, and only Egypt has the Monument Building UA bonus and not any other civ. For example Hellenes (Greeks) built many great wonders included in the game, China, India, US, France as well, forgive me if I forgot any other tribes.
As for the original question, Iroquois might be the weakest link but not by much, and hey, not all of them can be great, takes skill and luck to win with any tribe anyway. If you win with the weakest you will enjoy your victory more than one won with one of the preferred favourite tribes for sure.
 
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