Worst Civ in the Game??

[CraigMak]

Almost certainly it's the fact that you're talking about multiplayer while he's talking about single player.

In single player it is certainly a possibility to build "too many" units, in that their marginal utility declines after you have a certain number to the point where it isn't worth the gold they cost to maintain.

In multiplayer tactics are more important than in SP so Keshiks rule. In single player ranged units do the bulk of your fighting to achieve high kill ratio against the AI and so Keshiks rule.

Keshiks are like easy mode.

Keshieks are even stronger in SP turn based combat because there is zero opportunity to attack them. In MP you can at least get a quick hit in before they run away. A handful of Keheik can single handedly take over the entire world in SP because they never get retaliated against.

More production is always better. To say a civ is bad because it has too much production is like saying that Bill Gates is a loser because he has too much money. This is absurd. If you have nothing to build and no reason to make units then build workers and delete them for gold.

Then when something useful comes up like a wonder you build it in 4 turns flat.

 

[CraigMak]

So you think Japan could be low tier instead?



There is.. sometimes you overproduce so much that you run out of gold and eventually out of science.



I'm not trying to troll nor trying to be really weird.

Yes, Japan is a low tier civ. Their UA's are weak and the Samurai is merely an above average unit. Samurai come at an awkward location on the tech path for rushing them and melee units are simply not that great in general.

To rush Samurai you have to sacrifice teching towards Universities which is a simply bad idea in FFA.

Impi's on the other hand are a spectacular unit because they facilitate the University tech path without the need to even get xbows.

If you have enough units then just produce and delete workers or units for gold. There is no such thing as too much production. Production is good, it helps you make everything in the game.

 

[Sarin]

Wait...overproduction, really? Early on, there's always something to build. Workers, units, wonders, work boats, trade units...never had a city "idle" until modern age. And once you hit guilds, you can switch production to gold if you really have idle city, or if you're teching straight to universities, you'll get the ability to convert production to science with education.

 

[beetle]

Russia could go broke from over producing.

There is no such thing as overproducing or too much production.

Well, you can make way more units than you need. That is actually a pretty common problem for people as they work their way up difficulty levels, and RR is just pointing out that this is easier to do with Russia (extra production, plus extra iron and horses, temps one to over produce).

There is.. sometimes you overproduce so much that you run out of gold and eventually out of science.

I still struggle with periods of the game where my income is in the red, and science tanks.

 

[tflst5]

Ive been playing Iroquois in multiplayer with some friends. They are lethal.. totally lethal. The quick mohawk warrior w/o Iron lets you get iron-quality units exceptionally quick.. and their no-maintenance forest roads lets you connect cities to generate the extra capital to insta-upgrade your warriors. I just spam warriors early on, tech to iron working, then upgrade all of them to mohawks and lay waste. Its very hard to counter 5-6 swordsmen that early on. And unlike the other players, you aren't vulnerable to pillaging or restricted to only building 5-6.. i usually end up with a massive army of them.. thanks to the free roads countering my higher maintenance costs. Most other players are busy trying to get pikes or bows.. and they just don't expect that many swords that quick.

Probably wouldn't recommend them against the AI, but their multi-player capability is tough to compare.

 

[CraigMak]

Well, you can make way more units than you need. That is actually a pretty common problem for people as they work their way up difficulty levels, and RR is just pointing out that this is easier to do with Russia (extra production, plus extra iron and horses, temps one to over produce).



I still struggle with periods of the game where my income is in the red, and science tanks.

If you take an extremely good trait which is having high production and some how turn it into a detriment you have a mental disability. If you don't want the stuff that you are producing then delete it for gold.

When there is something that you want to build you make it faster than anyone else.

This is seriously the most absurdly stupid thing I have ever had to argue in my life.

High production is GOOD, PERIOD. If you think otherwise, please give me all your money because being rich must also be a bad thing. I'll take all you don't need. Thanks.

 

[Lexicus]

More production is always better. To say a civ is bad because it has too much production is like saying that Bill Gates is a loser because he has too much money. This is absurd. If you have nothing to build and no reason to make units then build workers and delete them for gold.

I agree more hammers is always better, but more units isn't always better.

Anyway, can't you just divert your hammers into research/wealth if you don't want to build anything?

 

[reddishrecue]

I agree more hammers is always better, but more units isn't always better.

Anyway, can't you just divert your hammers into research/wealth if you don't want to build anything?

I prefer more of everything overall and not just more hammers.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but if you have too high production and produce too many things...

How about you stop producing things, then? Focus on growth, science, gold and possibly even culture for a while.

 

[fallout3dc]

I prefer more of everything overall and not just more hammers.

In single player, you can sell every extra copy of horses and iron Russia gets for 2 gold each. So, instead of having 4 horses and 2 iron that can be sold for 12 gpt, you have 8 horses and 4 iron which can be sold for 24 gpt. That is a big difference on turn 35.

Also, Russia can settle by strategic resources and trade those for luxuries. So, if they see a city that has Iron and horses in a 1 tile radius, they can settle there, sell those for any lux they need, and enjoy early + free hammers in a new city.

 

[reddishrecue]

In single player, you can sell every extra copy of horses and iron Russia gets for 2 gold each. So, instead of having 4 horses and 2 iron that can be sold for 12 gpt, you have 8 horses and 4 iron which can be sold for 24 gpt. That is a big difference on turn 35.

Also, Russia can settle by strategic resources and trade those for luxuries. So, if they see a city that has Iron and horses in a 1 tile radius, they can settle there, sell those for any lux they need, and enjoy early + free hammers in a new city.

By selling luxuries like this, overproducing won't be a problem. A known issue about ais in luxuries though, is that ais often lower the price they pay throughout the play. For example, if you sell luxes at 8 gpt at the beginning, you will eventually have to sell the luxes at 6, 5 or even 4 by the later turns of the play. Losing gpt like this really adds up and eventually ends up into a bigger difference.

 

[mokyo24]

In single player, you can sell every extra copy of horses and iron Russia gets for 2 gold each. So, instead of having 4 horses and 2 iron that can be sold for 12 gpt, you have 8 horses and 4 iron which can be sold for 24 gpt. That is a big difference on turn 35.

Also, Russia can settle by strategic resources and trade those for luxuries. So, if they see a city that has Iron and horses in a 1 tile radius, they can settle there, sell those for any lux they need, and enjoy early + free hammers in a new city.

I'm quite picky when trading as Russia but yeah, those increased strategics could earn you a few extra gold. I tend to hoard my supplies though. They are essential to my nefarious schemes.

 

[Myth and Legend]

My first ever spaceship victory on Deity was as Russia. Cathy is pretty solid and versatilve without being OP.

Once you complete the manhattan project the AIs are a lot less moody with you.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

I'm quite picky when trading as Russia but yeah, those increased strategics could earn you a few extra gold. I tend to hoard my supplies though. They are essential to my nefarious schemes.

Something I like about selling my strat resources is when I sell my iron to my neighbour, and then they spam swordsmen/Longswordsmen and think they're the smartest guy on earth and declares war on me.

What happened to your swordsmen, buddy? Why do they have a 50% penalty? Thanks for the money, though.

 

[reddishrecue]

Something I like about selling my strat resources is when I sell my iron to my neighbour, and then they spam swordsmen/Longswordsmen and think they're the smartest guy on earth and declares war on me.

What happened to your swordsmen, buddy? Why do they have a 50% penalty? Thanks for the money, though.

Yea, that's smart guy stuff.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

I wonder, what if the Longhouse would also apply to jungles? I mean, sure it doesn't make that much sense, but the UA includes jungles as well, having the Longhouse include jungles too could probably be a helpful boon to those jungle tiles later on.

 

[fallout3dc]

I think the longhouse needs to give 1 food and 1 production to every forest tile. That would make Iroquois much better without being op. So 2 food and 2 hammers for the longhouse, along with the standard bonus longhouse gives to hammers.

 

[fallout3dc]

By selling luxuries like this, overproducing won't be a problem. A known issue about ais in luxuries though, is that ais often lower the price they pay throughout the play. For example, if you sell luxes at 8 gpt at the beginning, you will eventually have to sell the luxes at 6, 5 or even 4 by the later turns of the play. Losing gpt like this really adds up and eventually ends up into a bigger difference.

Does this have to do with degrading value of strat resources, or the AI not liking you as much for whatever? I remember selling Iron for 2 gold a turn in the information era.

 

[GPuzzle]

I think the longhouse needs to give 1 food and 1 production to every forest tile. That would make Iroquois much better without being op. So 2 food and 2 hammers for the longhouse, along with the standard bonus longhouse gives to hammers.

Actually we're looking at 2-food-4-production tiles. It's like a Reverse Inca.

 

[reddishrecue]

Does this have to do with degrading value of strat resources, or the AI not liking you as much for whatever? I remember selling Iron for 2 gold a turn in the information era.

The ai often asks you to go to war with other ais and when you say no, the ai will get mad. That could be a reason why the ai could lower its prices. Not only that, but denouncements can also get others to lower their prices.