Worst leader

[rah]

Well, Toku's a pretty bad neighbor too. He's probably the worst trading partner in the game. He won't open borders or trade techs until pleased, and he never trades his map. He's a pretty aggressive warmonger as well. Basically, this is not a guy you're pleased to encounter in any game. He's not a good trading partner and he often DOWs people.

He is probably the only civ that when he's my next door neighbor, I'll do the gift a city trick with to prime the pump. On the worst possible plot of land of course. He can be a nice attack dog to have on a leash. It's usually worth the hammers wasted on the settler. and if that city can get my religion before I give it to him, the better it is.

 

[lymond]

A happy Toku is a good Toku

 

[rah]

I used to hate starting next to him, until I learned the city trick here. Now he usually a nice pet to have. especially if you need a buffer of land since it's easy to manipulate him to not open borders with others.

 

[ArchGhost]

Yeah, the city gifting thing is a great trick with any aggressive (or potentially hostile) AI. It works doubly well with Toku since it can be enough to start Open Borders and real diplomacy with him, and even poor techers like him have a strong use as deflectors of ire when they are so ready to go to war. In fact, because he sucks at teching while being aggressive as he is, it makes it cheaper to set him on somebody. It's like the difference between using Genghis or Ragnar as your attack dog.

Warmonger AIs are pretty predictable in that regard and cna be used effectively to buy time for yourself, so I don't mind them so much. The AIs I hate the most are the ones like Rameses, Pacal, occasionally Willem/HC, who can tech extremely well at any size, are more than happy to sit small and peacevassal giving them relative immunity and making them unavailable as war bribes, and spam the hell out of culture. It almost always happens because of religious alignments too, and they tend not to mess with each other whatsoever. A million times more infuriating than a runaway giant AI if you ask me.

I also have a special hatred of fairly aggressive AIs who are nonetheless hard to bribe, like Giggles and Boudica. Not much worse than an AI who will happily pick on your but you can't bribe them away unless Friendly and immune to attack anyway.

 

[krikav]

@Kaitzilla
I could have sweared that I have captured a bunch of odeons... You sure they get razed?
I thought they where like the inca teracess, a culture building that you can capture.

The odeon is insane imho, especially paired with pericles.
Phi/Cre makes me want to go for a early construction attack, and then you are already at construction and get get those odeons for half price. It's so yummy!

 

[Kaitzilla]

@Kaitzilla
I could have sweared that I have captured a bunch of odeons... You sure they get razed?
I thought they where like the inca teracess, a culture building that you can capture.

The odeon is insane imho, especially paired with pericles.
Phi/Cre makes me want to go for a early construction attack, and then you are already at construction and get get those odeons for half price. It's so yummy!

I tried capturing 6 Greek cities with Odeons in world builder.

None of the 6 Odeons survived city capture.
I'll test it again later.

I think Windsor is correct and that it was intended to be a Theatre replacement, but a mistake was made and the Odeon replaced the Colossuem building.


**Edit**
Wait, if the captured city has equal or greater than 50% player city culture, then the Odeon will survive.

Theatre has <bNeverCapture> = 1, so it can never be captured like Libraries and religious buildings.
Odeon has <bNeverCapture> = 0.

Maybe Odeon really was a Colosseum replacement.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I definitely know I’ve captured some Odeons before. I recall being surprised the first time. I just think they made it as intended.

 

[krikav]

I haven't seen any code, but the way I have understod it all buildings providing culture is razed.
However, when a UB does provide culture, it can avoid this automatic razing.

This is another reason why Inca is so powerful, (and greece), captured cities can provide culture right away.
It's almost as when you capture cities with settled GArtists. <3

While we are on the subject, how does this work with for example the hippodrome? Could it's UB-status make it survive capture?

 

[Kaitzilla]

I could have sweared that I have captured a bunch of odeons... You sure they get razed?

Yep, I definitely know I’ve captured some Odeons before. I recall being surprised the first time. I just think they made it as intended.

I think what happened is that, while playing as Greeks, AI cities were captured.
The AI Colosseums that survived the 33% destruction chance and were converted INTO Odeons.
So it looked like Odeons survived city capture, but it was in fact Colosseums that survived to become Odeons.

I've tested capturing Greek cities with Odeons, and 0% of Odeons survived to turn into regular Colosseums.

While we are on the subject, how does this work with for example the hippodrome? Could it's UB-status make it survive capture?

I talked more about buildings surviving city capture here:

Spoiler :

Basically, when the player captures an AI city that has none of the player's city culture inside it, the following occurs:
The buildings with a 100% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <100 iConquestProb> are ALL world wonders, religious shrines, and the Great People buildings Academy and Scotland Yard.
The buildings with a 66% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <66 iConquestProb> are all the regular buildings the city can normally build.
The strange one out is the Greek Odeon which has a 0% chance to survive unlike the Colosseum, Ball Court, and Babylon Garden which are all 66%.
The buildings with a 0% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <0 iConquestProb> are ALL National Wonders, Wall, Castle, Barrack, Stable, Airport, Monument, Public Transportation, Library, University, Theatre, Odeon, Temple, Monastery, and Cathedral.

Now, what can the spread culture mission do for these odds?
If the AI has 100 in their city, then the Spread Culture mission can spread 5 or 5% into AI city.
So the AI city would have 100 AI and 5player
The culture percentage would be 4.76% player / 95.24% AI
It seems to round down for the player, so it is actually 4% player / 96% AI?

When the AI city gets conquered by the player, the occupation revolt timer is: (Thanks Pollina!)
Code:
if (iTeamCulturePercent < GC.getDefineINT("OCCUPATION_CULTURE_PERCENT_THRESHOLD"))
{
pNewCity->changeOccupationTimer(((GC.getDefineINT("BASE_OCCUPATION_TURNS") + ((pNewCity->getPopulation() * GC.getDefineINT("OCCUPATION_TURNS_POPULATION_PERCENT")) / 100)) * (100 - iTeamCulturePercent)) / 100);
}
Turns until conquered city comes out of revolt = Floor[Floor[(3+Population*0.5)]*(100 - PlayerCulture%) / 100].
Population is the city population after the conquest. (population goes down by 1 during a city capture unless the city is already at Size 1. If a city has never been higher than Size 1, then it would autoraze unless "no city razing" was picked before the game started)
PlayerCulture% is the ratio of the player's city culture in the target city / Total culture in the target city (AI+human player).
If the player ran 6 spread culture missions in an AI city with 20 AI city , then PlayerCulture% = 6/26 = 0.230769 = 23%
Plugging into the above formula, the number of turns of revolt in the conquered city would be Floor[Floor[(3 + Population * 0.5)] * (100 - 23) / 100].
If the population of the conquered city was a staggering 98 after conquest, then the turns of revolt would be Floor[Floor[(3 + 98*0.5)] * (100 - 23) / 100] = Floor[Floor[(52)] * (77) / 100] = Floor[52 * 77 / 100] = Floor(40.04) = 40 turns.
World builder proves this to be correct.

Now some buildings can never, ever, under any circumstances be captured when a city is conquered.
The have <bNeverCapture> = 1.
These are Monument, Library, University, Theatre, Temple, Cathedral, Monastery.

Once PlayerCulture% equals or goes above 25% in the target city, the player loses the ability to Raze the captured city.
Once PlayerCulture% equals or goes above 50% in the target city, the player no longer loses 1 population when capturing the city and 100% of ALL buildings besides Monument, Library, University, Theatre, Temple, Cathedral, Monastery(<bNeverCapture> = 1) survives!
That means Walls, Castles, and even National Wonders (not Palace) remain in the city!
Once PlayerCulture% equals or goes above 75% in the target city, the player gains immediate control of the city and has no turns of resistance!

Having PlayerCulture% at 49% resulted in the total destruction of 10 National Wonders and Barracks+Walls+Castle in multiple tests, so it appears the odds of buildings surviving only change at PlayerCulture% reaching 50% or higher.
Not sure how people have been capturing Heroic Epic without significant spread culture missions or losing a city with a lot of city to the AI and conquering it back much later with National Wonders in it.

Starting with 0 player city culture in the target AI city:
It takes roughly 8 spread culture missions to get to 27% PlayerCulture%.
It takes roughly 16 spread culture missions to get to 52% PlayerCulture%.
It takes roughly 30 spread culture missions to get to 75% PlayerCulture%.

Gifting a city away does not remove the player's city culture.
Only the player's plot culture on the city square and surrounding 8 squares vanishes.

Giving a relatively new Size 2 city away with 0 and immediately reconquering it acts like 0 PlayerCulture%, destroys buildings, and gives 3 turns of resistance.
So make sure to put 1 into it before doing something like that.

Basically, when the player captures an AI city that has none of the player's city culture inside it, the following occcurs:
The buildings with a 100% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <100 iConquestProb> are ALL world wonders, religious shrines, and the Great People buildings Academy and Scotland Yard.
The buildings with a 0% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <0 iConquestProb> are ALL National Wonders, Wall, Castle, Barrack, Stable, Airport, Monument, Public Transportation, Library, University, Theatre, Odeon , Temple, Monastery, and Cathedral.
The buildings with a 66% chance to survive the AI city being conquered by the player <66 iConquestProb> are all the rest of the regular buildings the city can build that don't have a 0% chance to survive.

When the player captures an AI city that has a player/AI city ratio of 50% or higher, the building survival rate drastically changes!

The buildings with a 0% chance to survive <bNeverCapture> = 1 are Monument, Library, University, Theatre, Temple, Cathedral, Monastery.
The buildings with a 100% chance to survive <bNeverCapture> = 0 are every other building.

Testing indicates that adding player city culture DOES NOT incrementally increase the odds above 0% or 66% survival during city conquest.
Survival only jumps up to 100% when the player/AI city reaches 50% or higher.

 

[krikav]

@Kaitzilla Nice!
Do you have a link to the thread where you write more about buildings surviving city capture?

How can you tell if you are over the 50% ratio or not? Is it the culture you see when you hoover over the enemy city?

 

[ArchGhost]

Shift or Ctrl when mousing over (forget which) shows you the plot culture of all owners with BUG I think.

 

[Kaitzilla]

@Kaitzilla Nice!
Do you have a link to the thread where you write more about buildings surviving city capture?

How can you tell if you are over the 50% ratio or not? Is it the culture you see when you hoover over the enemy city?

Any quote has an arrow pointed up next to - Kaitzilla said: ↑
Click on that arrow to follow a quote back to the source.


There is no easy way to tell if a player has 50% ratio or higher city culture (purple bar in city screen).
Only plot culture (Nationality bar in city screen) is easily discovered by hovering the mouse over a tile (ex: 55% player / 45% AI), and it regulates tile control/city revolt odds/drafting etc.

My best advice is that the player should always know how much city they have in a city because it can only be added while under player control.
The one exception is the Spread Culture espionage mission which injects 5% player culture into a city under the AI's control.
The player should also be able to keep track of all culture added in this manner.

Keeping track of how much city culture an AI has in their city?
It isn't possible unless the Spread Culture mission gives a number in the espionage screen (control +e)
I think that only happens when the player city's borders envelop a nearby AI city.
There is a tiny chance that an AI's city culture can be viewed in the Victory Screen (F8) if it is one of the top 3 culture cities.

 

[krikav]

Nice! Didn't know that with the arrow link.

 

[Deathcrush]

Yep, the Odeon is brilliant. Strange we managed to mess up that in Civ Illustrated. May have been my fault, not sure. Pericles is pretty darn good in my book. Strong traits and a great UB, and a non-crap UU too.

I've won my first cultural victory with him. So yeah - very good leader indeed!