Worst Unique Unit
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JTMacc99
That's a paddlin'
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True, but I was trying frame it in the context of why they aren't liked as Unique Units. The Praetorian is a great unique unit because in games when you can use swordsmen, they are a spectacular upgrade. I think the base unit knights, marines, and elephants are all good units, which is why I said I' didn't think I was alone in having games where I built lots of them.
What I meant was to say that the three units (well, the SEAL and the Elephant at least) that landed at the top of this poll probably got there because they have a combination of a unique trait that doesn't enhance the normal use of the base unit AND they are particularly susceptible to being units that a person might never build in a game.
That could very well be the case. For my part, I prefer to play Continents at a difficulty close to where I lose some of my games (currently Emperor), so I get to use units like the Marine and the Tank a fair bit - the game is by no means decided, even at that late a date!
Personally, I can't fathom why anyone would NOT go through the trouble of acquiring Ivory. Even when I'm not Khmer, Ivory is such a powerful resource that I jump through hoops just to get some. I tried modding BE's (don't remember how to do it now, though) to be resourceless and even that minor modification made them uber-powerful.
As anti-mounted Mounted units, BE's a stronger on the field per unit than even Praetorians. And resourceless? That's basically a beeline to Construction right there, followed by a game-winning war.
Requiring Ivory balances Elephants in a way, but BE's are still remarkably strong units.
slightlymarxist:
The problem with the Panzer is that the AI isn't good at using tanks, so the benefit is marginal at best. Even the Cossack is better. Well, actually since the AI sort of uses Cavalry passing decent, the Cossack is actually pretty good. Panzer...
Personally, I can't fathom why anyone would NOT go through the trouble of acquiring Ivory. Even when I'm not Khmer, Ivory is such a powerful resource that I jump through hoops just to get some. I tried modding BE's (don't remember how to do it now, though) to be resourceless and even that minor modification made them uber-powerful.
As anti-mounted Mounted units, BE's a stronger on the field per unit than even Praetorians. And resourceless? That's basically a beeline to Construction right there, followed by a game-winning war.
Requiring Ivory balances Elephants in a way, but BE's are still remarkably strong units.
slightlymarxist:
The problem with the Panzer is that the AI isn't good at using tanks, so the benefit is marginal at best. Even the Cossack is better. Well, actually since the AI sort of uses Cavalry passing decent, the Cossack is actually pretty good. Panzer...
There are two things that i find play an important factor in determining if a UU in going to be good, average or bad
What unit is it based on? units based on frontline important base units will always start advantaged over units based on marginal ones, thus a swordsman UU will be at an advantage over a Elephant or spearman based UU as swordsman are a key early unit
Next is what bonus's you get, good bonus on a strong base unit = good UU like a Praet or Vulture
Bad bonus on a less strong base unit = weak UU like a holkan or Balista Elephant (B elephant is good but suffers from very marginal nature of base unit)
I've simply edited my XML file to bring the less useful UU into line with the better ones, as an example i gave the camel archer 2 FS to represent it's ranged (bow) attack vs the standard knights sword + gave it the ability to move through difficult terrain unhindered (camel power) it's now much better and not the joke unit it was
What unit is it based on? units based on frontline important base units will always start advantaged over units based on marginal ones, thus a swordsman UU will be at an advantage over a Elephant or spearman based UU as swordsman are a key early unit
Next is what bonus's you get, good bonus on a strong base unit = good UU like a Praet or Vulture
Bad bonus on a less strong base unit = weak UU like a holkan or Balista Elephant (B elephant is good but suffers from very marginal nature of base unit)
I've simply edited my XML file to bring the less useful UU into line with the better ones, as an example i gave the camel archer 2 FS to represent it's ranged (bow) attack vs the standard knights sword + gave it the ability to move through difficult terrain unhindered (camel power) it's now much better and not the joke unit it was
peter450:
You DO know that an Elephant is an 8 strength Mounted unit that benefits from both Stables and Barracks, right? That comes with Construction and HBR?
The stupid things are so strong that it's actually worth the trouble to get HBR to get them online if you have Ivory.
You DO know that an Elephant is an 8 strength Mounted unit that benefits from both Stables and Barracks, right? That comes with Construction and HBR?
The stupid things are so strong that it's actually worth the trouble to get HBR to get them online if you have Ivory.
Elephants are tough, and if they did not need ivory would be right up there with swordsman as the one of the top classic era units, but and it's a big but, ivory is required and it's quite a rare resource and this is what hurts the elephant
I agree with you totally it's well worth getting if you have ivory, but i often don't which is why a UU based on it needs to be pretty powerful to offset that very large disadvantage
Praets are also 8 and come with ironworking (much earlier teck) and iron (a much more common resource), so really the B elephant should be getting another advantage, either a shock promo or perhaps collateral dmg
peter450:
See, that's the thing. I don't think Swordsmen are one of the top classical era units. In fact, I think they're kind of superfluous. Nice to have, yes, but not really all that essential.
By the time you get to producing Swordsmen, your enemies will usually have established decent economies and significant cultural defense. Whatever city attacking bonus they may have is usually insufficient. So you use Catas - but then if you're using Catas anyway, might as well just use Catas for city attacking, too, right?
There's a reason why many stacks used to be nearly 100% siege before siege units were nerfed.
For finishing off city defenders, you could use Axemen and be completely fine.
Now an Elephant is not the same thing - because it's got the strength of a Praetorian and is mounted besides - that means it's higher promoted and walks over Axemen. I don't find Ivory to be so rare that it's unusual for me to have Elephants. On Pangaea, someone ALWAYS has it and you can arrange to trade for it. On that kind of map, your not getting Ivory is your own fault.
Even on Continents, you get a decent chance of getting Ivory before Construction. Many online games here and maps generated can easily be shown to attest to this - the only way you're getting screwed if there's no Ivory whatsoever on your Continent, and you can't contact the other one.
The reason this is so is because Ivory nearly always occurs in multiples near one another - so a Civ that has one nearly always has a spare - which you can trade for. Iron is not the same. You could have 4 Iron resources on a Continent and have a neat distribution of one per Civ. If you don't have one, the chances of being able to trade for some is smaller.
Bear in mind, you're saying here that the BE is bad because it's worse than a Praetorian, which many other UUs also are.
Here, think about this: a basic elephant is better on the field than Praetorians are. If Praetorians were a normal unit that could be acquired through getting Dye, you'd always try to finagle your way to one, right? Well, you have that - the basic Elephant. Now, what if you had a Praetorian UU that targeted Archers preferentially? That would be astoundingly good.
The BE is that unit.
You see, there is a unit that's bothersome to kill - the Knight. In a mixed Pikeman/Knight stack, a normal Elephant would have to face down the Pikes, and if you attack with anything else you've got, you're facing down a Knight - which has goodly strength.
With BEs, you can take the stack apart by picking out the Knights first, then going for the Pikemen with nothing more than moderately promoted Axemen, if that's all you've got.
"But what if they're in a city?!?!"
If they're in a city, then neither Praetorians nor BEs are significant because you're going to siege the defenders to hell anyway before sending anything in.
See, that's the thing. I don't think Swordsmen are one of the top classical era units. In fact, I think they're kind of superfluous. Nice to have, yes, but not really all that essential.
By the time you get to producing Swordsmen, your enemies will usually have established decent economies and significant cultural defense. Whatever city attacking bonus they may have is usually insufficient. So you use Catas - but then if you're using Catas anyway, might as well just use Catas for city attacking, too, right?
There's a reason why many stacks used to be nearly 100% siege before siege units were nerfed.
For finishing off city defenders, you could use Axemen and be completely fine.
Now an Elephant is not the same thing - because it's got the strength of a Praetorian and is mounted besides - that means it's higher promoted and walks over Axemen. I don't find Ivory to be so rare that it's unusual for me to have Elephants. On Pangaea, someone ALWAYS has it and you can arrange to trade for it. On that kind of map, your not getting Ivory is your own fault.
Even on Continents, you get a decent chance of getting Ivory before Construction. Many online games here and maps generated can easily be shown to attest to this - the only way you're getting screwed if there's no Ivory whatsoever on your Continent, and you can't contact the other one.
The reason this is so is because Ivory nearly always occurs in multiples near one another - so a Civ that has one nearly always has a spare - which you can trade for. Iron is not the same. You could have 4 Iron resources on a Continent and have a neat distribution of one per Civ. If you don't have one, the chances of being able to trade for some is smaller.
Bear in mind, you're saying here that the BE is bad because it's worse than a Praetorian, which many other UUs also are.
Here, think about this: a basic elephant is better on the field than Praetorians are. If Praetorians were a normal unit that could be acquired through getting Dye, you'd always try to finagle your way to one, right? Well, you have that - the basic Elephant. Now, what if you had a Praetorian UU that targeted Archers preferentially? That would be astoundingly good.
The BE is that unit.
You see, there is a unit that's bothersome to kill - the Knight. In a mixed Pikeman/Knight stack, a normal Elephant would have to face down the Pikes, and if you attack with anything else you've got, you're facing down a Knight - which has goodly strength.
With BEs, you can take the stack apart by picking out the Knights first, then going for the Pikemen with nothing more than moderately promoted Axemen, if that's all you've got.
"But what if they're in a city?!?!"
If they're in a city, then neither Praetorians nor BEs are significant because you're going to siege the defenders to hell anyway before sending anything in.
PotatoOverdose
Prince
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Let's consider the Balista Elephant. Ivory is less common then copper, iron or horses. So, by default, you will be able to use this unit less than any other uu from comparable eras. However, let us say for the sake of argument that we are guaranteed Ivory. How does the ballista elephant compare to a regular elephant? Both can dominate swords, axes, mounted units, and archers, while pikeman give them some trouble.
When then does the unique advantage of the BE to target mounted units outside of cities come in to play? When mounted units are accompanied by pikemen. So, when an enemy unit who's primary advantage is it's mobility has a 1 move infantry babysitter 24/7 is the case when the BE comes into its own. To paraphrase the previous sentence: The BE is useful when the AI or human opponent decides to behave like a lobotomized fish.
Mounted units are used for their mobility, keeping mounted units on the defensive in stacks with infantry (pikemen) is pointless. Mounted units are fast attackers, excellent pillagers, and all round excellent units because of their exceptional mobility and offensive strength. Remove this mobility by tying them to pikemen, and you get a stack of expensive slow units that don't receive defensive bonuses or city raider promotions
.
The BE thrives in precisely such conditions. It thrives, compared to the regular elephant, when your opponent does not know how to use their mounted units properly. In other words, it thrives when your opponent behaves in a completely incompetent manner, when you, the player, should not need a UU to beat the incompetent adversary.
This is not tot take away from the elephant as a decent (although rare) unit. The elephant is quite good, but the ballista elephant is only an improvement on this good unit when your opponent makes such poor tactical decisions that you really shouldn't need a UU to beat them in the first place. Again, having mounted units tied 24/7 to infantry is bad, iirc no AI is that dumb, and if the enemy mounted units aren't tied to infantry, than regular elephants will serve you just as well.
When then does the unique advantage of the BE to target mounted units outside of cities come in to play? When mounted units are accompanied by pikemen. So, when an enemy unit who's primary advantage is it's mobility has a 1 move infantry babysitter 24/7 is the case when the BE comes into its own. To paraphrase the previous sentence: The BE is useful when the AI or human opponent decides to behave like a lobotomized fish.
Mounted units are used for their mobility, keeping mounted units on the defensive in stacks with infantry (pikemen) is pointless. Mounted units are fast attackers, excellent pillagers, and all round excellent units because of their exceptional mobility and offensive strength. Remove this mobility by tying them to pikemen, and you get a stack of expensive slow units that don't receive defensive bonuses or city raider promotions
. The BE thrives in precisely such conditions. It thrives, compared to the regular elephant, when your opponent does not know how to use their mounted units properly. In other words, it thrives when your opponent behaves in a completely incompetent manner, when you, the player, should not need a UU to beat the incompetent adversary.
This is not tot take away from the elephant as a decent (although rare) unit. The elephant is quite good, but the ballista elephant is only an improvement on this good unit when your opponent makes such poor tactical decisions that you really shouldn't need a UU to beat them in the first place. Again, having mounted units tied 24/7 to infantry is bad, iirc no AI is that dumb, and if the enemy mounted units aren't tied to infantry, than regular elephants will serve you just as well.
PotatoOverdose:
Your detailed assessment only reveals why you think the BE is so bad, and if I may say so, also reveals that you are unacquainted with one of the best ways to use mounted units - as stack units.
As purely mobile harassers or attackers, the way you use them, mounted units have small niche roles and limited windows of opportunity. I think it's safe to say that by the time you get Spearmen, the reign of HAs in your territories is pretty much over, and by the time you get Pikemen, Knights are similarly done for.
If this is the only way you know how to use mounted units, then you cannot appreciate their full potential, and thus cannot appreciate how the BE helps you.
The benefit of using mounted units in a stack is the same benefit for having any other unit in a stack - so they don't get killed by their counterunits. For Knights, this will be Pikemen.
Is it still useful to have HAs and Knights in a stack?
Yes. Both Knights and HAs absolutely kill any siege in counter-stacks that may end up close to your attack stack, and are very capable of mopping up against any units that may have attacked your stack and emerged as weakened victors. HAs are no slouches. They're 6 strength units! Knights are 10 strength units! Stronger than Macemen, they are.
The other advantage of mounted units in a stack is that after attacking, they can move to occupy a city that you may have taken with your entire stack. This obviates you from having to attack that city against with possible CG promoted defenders. While mounted units aren't very strong defensive unit on their own, against single stragglers, they're adequate defense.
Moreover, your mounted units do not magically lose strategic mobility while in a stack. If you happen to draw out defenses from a nearby other city, you can send your horse units to take it while your main stack attacks your target city - if you had sent them out on their own, they could have been decimated by counter units.
Moving mounted units in stacks with pikemen is smart - an eminently sensible strategic move with impressive attack implications.
And yes, the AI does this - with Knights and HAs. They also send out these units on their own when it's good, but when I have pikemen dancing around my borders, it only makes sense to send in a Knight accompanied by Macemen (or Pike if the enemy has Elephants).
All of this has to do with stack manipulation - that is, promoting and combining your units to make the defensive unit selection in a defending stack work to your benefit rather than simply using brute force all the time.
Your detailed assessment only reveals why you think the BE is so bad, and if I may say so, also reveals that you are unacquainted with one of the best ways to use mounted units - as stack units.
As purely mobile harassers or attackers, the way you use them, mounted units have small niche roles and limited windows of opportunity. I think it's safe to say that by the time you get Spearmen, the reign of HAs in your territories is pretty much over, and by the time you get Pikemen, Knights are similarly done for.
If this is the only way you know how to use mounted units, then you cannot appreciate their full potential, and thus cannot appreciate how the BE helps you.
The benefit of using mounted units in a stack is the same benefit for having any other unit in a stack - so they don't get killed by their counterunits. For Knights, this will be Pikemen.
Is it still useful to have HAs and Knights in a stack?
Yes. Both Knights and HAs absolutely kill any siege in counter-stacks that may end up close to your attack stack, and are very capable of mopping up against any units that may have attacked your stack and emerged as weakened victors. HAs are no slouches. They're 6 strength units! Knights are 10 strength units! Stronger than Macemen, they are.
The other advantage of mounted units in a stack is that after attacking, they can move to occupy a city that you may have taken with your entire stack. This obviates you from having to attack that city against with possible CG promoted defenders. While mounted units aren't very strong defensive unit on their own, against single stragglers, they're adequate defense.
Moreover, your mounted units do not magically lose strategic mobility while in a stack. If you happen to draw out defenses from a nearby other city, you can send your horse units to take it while your main stack attacks your target city - if you had sent them out on their own, they could have been decimated by counter units.
Moving mounted units in stacks with pikemen is smart - an eminently sensible strategic move with impressive attack implications.
And yes, the AI does this - with Knights and HAs. They also send out these units on their own when it's good, but when I have pikemen dancing around my borders, it only makes sense to send in a Knight accompanied by Macemen (or Pike if the enemy has Elephants).
All of this has to do with stack manipulation - that is, promoting and combining your units to make the defensive unit selection in a defending stack work to your benefit rather than simply using brute force all the time.
Hi
I think BE is kinda sucky NOT cuz of its rarity. I can deal with a UU that only pops up IF you have the right resource even if it is one as rare as ivory. Main reason I konda dont like the BE is just cuz for me in my games something like 8-9 times out of 10 I WANT my combat1 shock ellies targeting those CR maces FIRST and NOT any rinky dink HA's or chariots or whatever that the AI happen to send as tag a longs. That is what really bugs me about the BE more than even UU's like Jags or Doggies. Yeah maybe they DONT do somethings as good as the units they replace--namely city busting. But to me the point of those units is that they are NOT designed to be used like the units they are replacing and if you keep that in mind and try to levrage what they ARE designed to do they can be pretty spiffy--maybe not top tier but still pretty spiffy and fun.
But with the BE it just seems like even IF you get it and run into those rare chances where it behaves like it was designed -- that design is still kinda sucky.
Kaytie
I think BE is kinda sucky NOT cuz of its rarity. I can deal with a UU that only pops up IF you have the right resource even if it is one as rare as ivory. Main reason I konda dont like the BE is just cuz for me in my games something like 8-9 times out of 10 I WANT my combat1 shock ellies targeting those CR maces FIRST and NOT any rinky dink HA's or chariots or whatever that the AI happen to send as tag a longs. That is what really bugs me about the BE more than even UU's like Jags or Doggies. Yeah maybe they DONT do somethings as good as the units they replace--namely city busting. But to me the point of those units is that they are NOT designed to be used like the units they are replacing and if you keep that in mind and try to levrage what they ARE designed to do they can be pretty spiffy--maybe not top tier but still pretty spiffy and fun.
But with the BE it just seems like even IF you get it and run into those rare chances where it behaves like it was designed -- that design is still kinda sucky.
Kaytie
KatieKat:
See, that's the thing. You're not using stack manipulation to good effect. You KNOW your BEs are going to go going after those units first, so it makes sense to plan for it - it's not like you don't know what's in your enemy's stack.
If you have HAs in a stack, then don't send your Shock BEs to attack it - use your BEs with unassigned promotions instead. They'll win handily, gain XP, and if they get damaged, you can heal them. When you have BEs, any mounted unit in a stack is basically XP waiting to be harvested - so go harvest it.
With any luck, you can select out the mounted units, gain XP, heal through promotion, and THEN the macemen attack your own stack, selecting out your Shock Elephants - two kills in one turn!
See, that's the thing. You're not using stack manipulation to good effect. You KNOW your BEs are going to go going after those units first, so it makes sense to plan for it - it's not like you don't know what's in your enemy's stack.
If you have HAs in a stack, then don't send your Shock BEs to attack it - use your BEs with unassigned promotions instead. They'll win handily, gain XP, and if they get damaged, you can heal them. When you have BEs, any mounted unit in a stack is basically XP waiting to be harvested - so go harvest it.
With any luck, you can select out the mounted units, gain XP, heal through promotion, and THEN the macemen attack your own stack, selecting out your Shock Elephants - two kills in one turn!
The other swordsman UUs have promotions that stick AND relaxed resource requirements.
The former would be less relevant (an elephant upgrade is a long way off) and the latter... well, they did it for Camel Archers but it isn't likely.
The problem with the B Elepehant is not that a praet is better,i was simply using the praet as an example of a unit that has the same str, easy teck/res requirements by comparison and can get better promotions (City Raider line)
There are other good UU too like the vulture, Numid cav, Gallic Warriors, they all offer a more versatile unit
BE elephants are good, i don't dispute that, but considering they come on a unit that is far harder to obtain, than other classic era units they should get another useful feature like a free shock promotion or somesuch, there not really that much of an improvement over the standard unit all said
There are other good UU too like the vulture, Numid cav, Gallic Warriors, they all offer a more versatile unit
BE elephants are good, i don't dispute that, but considering they come on a unit that is far harder to obtain, than other classic era units they should get another useful feature like a free shock promotion or somesuch, there not really that much of an improvement over the standard unit all said
Iranon:
Sure, but that puts the lie to your argument. You said that the BE is bad because you would rather have the Hwacha. By that argument, a LOT of UUs are bad.
peter450:
Sure. They're not all THAT much better than a stock elephant - but a stock elephant is already so good that we're comparing it to a Praetorian!
Making a BE better than that makes it a broken unit - something that you can acquire as a Khmer that will let you win the game much more easily. It will essentially turn the game into a "look for Ivory" game.
Situational usefulness is not enough to warrant making the unit better if the base unit is already very good. Most Knight and Cavalry UUs are also in this situation - we all know how crazy Cossacks used to be.
And no, Praetorians being able to get City Raider promotions isn't necessarily an advantage. At the point where you're using Swordsmen at all, you're likely also using siege - at which point counter-unit promotions for stack manipulation are at least as relevant or more relevant than generic City Raider promotions. I like having my Praetorians promoted up the shock line nearly as well - this could select up the Archers over the Axemen depending on how damaged the Axemen are from collateral.
This is valuable because I would rather have my Shock Axemen in the stack take care of their damaged Axemen, rather than have them go up against Archers.
Sure, but that puts the lie to your argument. You said that the BE is bad because you would rather have the Hwacha. By that argument, a LOT of UUs are bad.
peter450:
Sure. They're not all THAT much better than a stock elephant - but a stock elephant is already so good that we're comparing it to a Praetorian!
Making a BE better than that makes it a broken unit - something that you can acquire as a Khmer that will let you win the game much more easily. It will essentially turn the game into a "look for Ivory" game.
Situational usefulness is not enough to warrant making the unit better if the base unit is already very good. Most Knight and Cavalry UUs are also in this situation - we all know how crazy Cossacks used to be.
And no, Praetorians being able to get City Raider promotions isn't necessarily an advantage. At the point where you're using Swordsmen at all, you're likely also using siege - at which point counter-unit promotions for stack manipulation are at least as relevant or more relevant than generic City Raider promotions. I like having my Praetorians promoted up the shock line nearly as well - this could select up the Archers over the Axemen depending on how damaged the Axemen are from collateral.
This is valuable because I would rather have my Shock Axemen in the stack take care of their damaged Axemen, rather than have them go up against Archers.
I am comparing the B elephant to the praet as they are both UU, a standard elephant has the same str as a praet yes but you need more teck and scares resources, a maceman is also the same str as a praet but again you need later tech's
City raider line is a massive advantage when standard archers are 3 str and a praet is 8
A city garison 3 archer fortified in a city gets a 125% bonus, a 150% if you count fortification, thats a 150% of 3, which is less than 75% of 8
A str 8 unit with 75% city attack odd's is way better than a plain str 8 unit, siege units cost lots of money and die when you attack, praets are a lot cheaper than catapults and have enough str that all you need to do is bombard the city defenses, you don't need to collateral everyone to then march in, were as with elephants there odd's are a lot worse when attacking a city and softening up the defenders is definately more important
The way city raider works is it reduces the str of the defending units by that %, it's a very valuable promo line and i'd take swordsman over elephants for city attacks any day, elephants cost 60 hammers and thats a lot, catapults are 50, having units that let you do things with lower loss's is always a very good advantage
City raider line is a massive advantage when standard archers are 3 str and a praet is 8
A city garison 3 archer fortified in a city gets a 125% bonus, a 150% if you count fortification, thats a 150% of 3, which is less than 75% of 8
A str 8 unit with 75% city attack odd's is way better than a plain str 8 unit, siege units cost lots of money and die when you attack, praets are a lot cheaper than catapults and have enough str that all you need to do is bombard the city defenses, you don't need to collateral everyone to then march in, were as with elephants there odd's are a lot worse when attacking a city and softening up the defenders is definately more important
The way city raider works is it reduces the str of the defending units by that %, it's a very valuable promo line and i'd take swordsman over elephants for city attacks any day, elephants cost 60 hammers and thats a lot, catapults are 50, having units that let you do things with lower loss's is always a very good advantage
peter450:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the BE is judged just a little bit less desirable than a Praetorian. Would that make it the worst UU of the lot, then?
Actually, no. Have you ever used Elephants? Basic elephants get 2 promos when produced, because the Stables add XP. At the most basic, you're attacking a 3 strength fortified Archer with an 8 Strength Combat 1 Cover promoted unit. Those are not poor odds, and you don't necessarily have to collateral to just charge in.
Even better, the other common unit AIs have is Axemen, and even Shock Axemen are no match for Combat 1 Cover Elephants, assuming you have to use the same unit you promoted earlier to attack Archers.
Most importantly, Elephants chew HAs for breakfast - an important consideration for the defense of your Catapults en route to the city. The only things that give them pause are Spearmen, and your normal complement of Axemen in a stack will handily defend against this one weakness more than adequately.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the BE is judged just a little bit less desirable than a Praetorian. Would that make it the worst UU of the lot, then?
Actually, no. Have you ever used Elephants? Basic elephants get 2 promos when produced, because the Stables add XP. At the most basic, you're attacking a 3 strength fortified Archer with an 8 Strength Combat 1 Cover promoted unit. Those are not poor odds, and you don't necessarily have to collateral to just charge in.
Even better, the other common unit AIs have is Axemen, and even Shock Axemen are no match for Combat 1 Cover Elephants, assuming you have to use the same unit you promoted earlier to attack Archers.
Most importantly, Elephants chew HAs for breakfast - an important consideration for the defense of your Catapults en route to the city. The only things that give them pause are Spearmen, and your normal complement of Axemen in a stack will handily defend against this one weakness more than adequately.
it has been some new patch lately? I thought mounted can't get cover....
