Worth going on? Build order suggestions?

[TruePurple]

Settings on this game, most things standard , Emperor difficulty, map size biggest. Conquest game.

I Have managed to keep up in techs in this game via lucky barbarian village visits.(scout beat AI to a camp twice, one time it was right outside AI's village, the other time it would have grabbed the village the next turn) Pink has two techs on me, I'm tied tech wise with orange.

Got lots of wine, and all but one village connected. Close to getting Furs once one village finishes its temple and expands my domain to the furs. Also close to connecting iron to my network of villages. I have settlers being built in several cities. My next target is the silk a little below my wine city. And/or the iron to the left of my wine village. Barbarians have given me grief from that area preventing my expansion around that city and forced me to divert resources to destroying barbarian units so my workers can safely get back to work.(took my spearman out of my cap so that it could protect a archer and attack the barb, civs in that city didn't like that much though) Fortunately pink has been sending a stream of warriors to that location which has held them back.

I've lost a worker a archer and a scout or two to barbarian attacks.

Problem is both AI's I have contact with have about twice as many villages as me. (can't remember the exact number, I know via diplomacy) and the villages I do have are kinda small. But the real kicker is on this save its only a turn or two before the AI's take my wonder and my cap is forced to waste shields.

I had the same problem on my last game, the AI keeping a definite tech advantage and grabbing all the wonders. I can't imagine how I am to catch up in tech and grab any wonders with such a village number disadvantage.

Do you guys think I should abandon this game and start over? Or do I still have a chance? Why is it that the AI expands so much faster then me, am I doing something wrong? Or is that just part and parcel with emperor setting?

Can anyone recommend a good build order? I typically build a worker or two off the bat, often the time it takes for the worker and the time before the city expands is the same. They work on improving the best available square then the best square (when I get domain expansion) then building roads to my next choice for city planting. Depends on my food/shield ratio for available squares.

Otherwise I might build a spearman first. I am rather torn between building spearman or warriors. Spearman is twice as tough and actually a good defender. But warrior keeps my city just as happy and is finished earlier so I can get on with expansion.

I'm also torn between building granary first for faster growth then spinning off settlers or going for the settlers first. Typically I go for the settlers and other improvements, ignoring granary vainly and foolishly hoping to actually grab the pyramid improvement before the AI. Plus the granery takes so long to build. It would help to know exactly how city size effects growth rate. Would someone please explain it?

 

[mastertyguy]

First, you ain't building settlers at all. Start building them. Second, you lost the Pyramid race, go on to granary in Moscow. Why did you try to get it in cap? it slows down your settler building. And what are those grass irrigation? Also, settle for the cattle, maybe on the hill across the river. It could be a great settler factory.

 

[Desertsnow]

Do build Spear units. They are indeed twice as tough, and they upgrade all the way up to Mech Infantry; Warrioris go only as far as Swords, they become obsolete fastfastfast. Have at least a couple of them in each city if you can, and escort your workers and settlers, especially at high difficulty levels. I agree with Mastertyguy about the granary (Pyramids are one of my favorite Wonders--there is a free lunch.) Also, build the Colossus if you have a costal city and haven't lost the opportunity. Build the Great Library if you can to keep abreast of the tech race, but mind, building Ancient Wonders is going to take a some luck or management skill at higher difficulty levels.

 

[Gyathaar]

Warrioris go only as far as Swords, they become obsolete fastfastfast.

He is playing conquests.. so warriors upgrade doesnt stop at swords:
warrior -> sword -> medieval infantery -> guerilla -> TOW infantery

 

[gmaharriet]

Do build Spear units. They are indeed twice as tough, and they upgrade all the way up to Mech Infantry; Warrioris go only as far as Swords, they become obsolete fastfastfast.

It depends on whether he's playing vanilla or C3C. In Conquests, swords upgrade to MDI, then guerrilla and then to TOW infantry. Also the AI tends to fear offensive units more than defensive, making sneak attacks less likely.

Edit: Oops! Crossposted with Gyathaar. I had to go look up the precise upgrade path.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Do build Spear units. They are indeed twice as tough, and they upgrade all the way up to Mech Infantry; Warrioris go only as far as Swords, they become obsolete fastfastfast. Have at least a couple of them in each city if you can, and escort your workers and settlers, especially at high difficulty levels. I agree with Mastertyguy about the granary (Pyramids are one of my favorite Wonders--there is a free lunch.) Also, build the Colossus if you have a costal city and haven't lost the opportunity. Build the Great Library if you can to keep abreast of the tech race, but mind, building Ancient Wonders is going to take a some luck or management skill at higher difficulty levels.

Just never build any spears. Spears, as well as any defensive units until you have artillery, are useless.
The warrior to swordsmen upgrade is one of the strongest strategies to use in civ3. One should not garrison it's cities, its a complete waste.
This is not only in C3C, this is in all versions.

Other than that, i haven't looked at the save. I do see something about the pyramids in several posts, and i can only say that attempting to build any ancient age wonders is a mistake. During ancient age you need to grow. Capture the wonders later if you want.

Victory is very much decided in the first part of the game. During those first 80 or so turns, focus on nothing but growth, and you will surely have more cities than the AI. Forget about wonders, forget about culture, forget about everything but growth.

 

[TruePurple]

I got a number of settlers Im building,

And what are those grass irrigation?

I don't understand the question


@masterguy I got a a few settlers Im building in that game, (as I get enough pop to do so)

And what are those grass irrigation?

I don't understand the question


Defensive units worthless without artilary? Not in my experience. Posting a defensive unit with city bonus or terrain bonus can be a tough nut to crack, defense is a good offense. If I don't have to worry about suprise attack then you can go offensive easier or simply grow safer. Also, one game I built a warrior for a town and the ai came nosing around with a couple of its warriors and took that town thrusting me into a early war Of course the question becomes what of the slowed progress due to longer production.

Also you HAVE to garrison your cities early game, without a unit sitting in your city riots break out once you get your second pop head.

I do see something about the pyramids in several posts

Yah, got that feeling of not listening from just about all the posts. Sorry it was so long, I'd figure people would at least do a half ass job of even just skimming my posts when they are long like that.


Allot of my main questions weren't answered or even approached,
am I dead in the water in this game having half the cities of the AI? Should I throw away this game?

What is the best production order? For pure expansion purposes workers settlers and grainers are your most important resource. Which should I build in what order? Considering the free graineres and their value to fast expansion, does't building the ancient wonder piramides become a valuable tool for fast expansion? (not to mention the gold savings) any tricks to getting it though and not wasting shields?

How does city size effect growth rate?

I do hope this post was short enough for people to bother completely reading

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Well, sorry, but your experience must be wrong then
yes, i may have overstated it very very slightly. Yes, there are situations where 1 or 2 spearmen (in the whole game that is) might be a good thing. Other than that, they really are not.
In civ3,(and any strategy game actually) the more you play defensive, the more you will be forced in the defence. It will seem needed to you. Once however you go on the offence, you will notice your game is going much better. With no defensive units, only offensive, even deity AI's can be overran like a breeze.

Yes, i know, when you first try without defense, you will probably lose to some attacks. If then, you are gonna learn to handle that with other means than spearmen, you will notice a great advantage once you are able to handle the situations. Read the gotm and sgotm reports to see how we do this.

For hapiness, don't garrison. Use the luxury slider instead.


You are perfectly right in that you need workers, settlers and granaries.
The pyramids are not "free" granaries. They still cost 400 shields.

See your cities like microbes or something. You start with one, you build a settler. Then you have 2. Both build a settler, you have 4. All 4 build a settler, you have 8. etc. It grows exponentially.
In order to beat the AI to the pyramids, you need to start it very early. Due to the exponential growth, building it in one of your earliest cities is extremely costly. Also, you will probably not have it before turn 60 or so. That is just way too late. That is the end of your expansion phase. You need them much earlier than that.

I cannot tell you the best production order, it differs per game, i can give you general outlines though.
Generally, you first want to see the area's around you and meet other civ's to trade tech with. Therefore, start with 1 warrior (or scout if you are expansionist).
After this warrior it is normally time to start the expansion spree. The best general rule i can give is to build a granary if you have a food bonus, and build settler without granary if your city does not have a food bonus. Do it like that for all the cities you build, mixing workers in the mix.
There are some articles about settler and worker factories around here that maybe you should read as well. For short, these are cities with 5 food surplus and enough production to produce a settler every 4 turns, or a worker every 2 turns. These cities are extremely powerfull, and you should always look for the opportunity to create such cities.

2 food surplus is the default value for every city you build. If you have a food bonus it can get more. If you do not have a food bonus, make sure it doesn't get less than 2. Sometimes, a city with only 2 food surplus also deserves a granary. That is, when it has such a lot of production, that you do not have enough citizens to use all your production on settlers or workers. Cities that have just slightly too more production than can be used on settlers and workers can build a warrior in between the settlers. These warriors can then be used for scouting and for MP in your biggest cities.

City size is not really important by itself usually. It is however important to maintain the best possible food surplus in your cities and grow as many citizens as you can. These citizens can be turned into settlers and workers, meaning even more cities and better upgraded ground.
The worker/settler factories need some extra population in order to have the production needed to build settlers in 4 turns.
Also realise, every citizen creates more production and gold for your empire.

When you build a city, it by default has 2 food surplus. The more cities you have, the more food surplus you gain. So the more cities you have, the more new citizens you grow and the more production you will have later. Therefore, do not let the cost of a settler hold you back for a moment. They are more than worth it.

So, without military for the first 80 turns, use the lux slider for your hapines and if the AI makes a demand, pay them.
usually the first 40-50 turns are completely focused on expansion. The next 30-40 turns are mostly focused on expansion, but you start building some barracks. Then after 80 turns or so, the focus shifts to miltary.
If you are a more peacefull player, you can of course also add in some libraries after turn 50. I personally prefer to skip the libraries, attack my neighbours and make them pay sceince or peace though. Also can you make the scientists in the conquered cities.

After this expansion phase, start building your military with offensive units. Espescially fast moving offensive units are nice. They are good both for attacking and for defending. Well actively defending that is. When enemies enter your land, you can wait for them to attack your cities, but you can also attack them before they do so.
Suppose you have 3 cities bordering an enemy. If you had them all defended by 2 spearmen, and the enemy attacks with 3 swordsmen, you are 2 against 3. If you have no spearnmen, but 4 horsemen instead, you can attack the enemy before they reach your cities and you are 4 against 3. Also after you defeated the incomming attack, the horsemen can go out and have their revenge, spearmen cannot.
Of course, before attacking intruders, try the peacefull and diplomatic way to make them leave

 

[Gyathaar]

I havent checked your save

Irrigating grass tiles has no effect as all when you are in despotism.. the extra food you get from irrigating is lost to dispotism penality, so unless the grass tile has a food bonus, it is almost always better to mine grass tiles.

On emperor and above difficulty it will be almost impossible to get pyramids (unless you luck out and get a scientific leader)

Also you HAVE to garrison your cities early game, without a unit sitting in your city riots break out once you get your second pop head.

no, you dont need garrisons to prevent riots.. just raise lux tax instead.

Unless you have one (or more) settler factory in the first couple of cities, you will usually be behind the AI in city count pretty fast on emperor and up (unless you are on an island by yourself where you can expans slowly without AI interferrance)

if you have a settler factory, you can easilly keep up with AIs in city numbers thou, and with 2-3 factories you can even outexpand sid AIs.

For early game my buildorder will vary on what land is available.. I will build 2-3 warriors or better curraghs for exploration to meet other AIs asap.
However if from starting position can see another city location that is as good or better than the capital spot when it comes to food, the first thing I will build is a settler.. else it will usually be a granary after 1-2 units for exploration.

Normally I will only build garrisons if there are barbarians around on roaming or higher setting.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I really advise you to read some sgotm threads. I think it will show you a different way of playing civ3.

Oh, i wondered what you meant by city size effecting growth rate.
Do you mean the size of the food box?
When your city is size 1-6, it has a 20 food sized box.
When your city is size 7-12, it has a 40 food sized box.
When your city is size 13+, it has a 80 food sized box.

of course, with a granary it becomes half that size.

Other than that, city size generally doesn't really need to affect its growth rate. In most situations, every tile produces 2 food, and every citizens uses 2. So all your citizens are self supporting. The food from the central city tile initially is your food surplus. Cows, wheat, dear or whines can add to increase your food surplus as with these, the citizen working them provides more than he eats. Later in the game, when you are republic, you can irrigate a few grassland to further enhance growth. This is however after the expansion phase and its a completely different issue.

 

[Pentium]

For hapiness, don't garrison. Use the luxury slider instead.

Why not? It's cheaper and you can still maintain some research.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Keep in mind that the 'No Defenders' strategy is a controversal issue. Note everyone agrees that you don't need them below Emperor, of course.

The GotM/HoF veterans will usually tell you they're a waste. The SG/variants/'play out horrible starts' veterans will tell you defenders are crucial.

Why? In about 80% of all games, defenders are indeed a waste of shields. But, HoF attempts/GotMs which belong to the 20% group will be abandoned anyway.
When do you benefit from defenders:
AI target selection. If you have Spears, neighbor A Warriors, and nieghbor B is a t war with you both - were will he go? That also is the reason why you rarely get attacked early when playing Sumeria.
Sneak attacks.
Barbarians. A SG will be played out even if 4 Yokels appear next to your capital. A HoF attempt not.

Of course, I fully agree with what's said about settlers, expansion, ancient wonders (I'd care about the Colossus or Lighthouse only; occasionally MoM - and of course, SoZ). Simply because those wonders need to either locate to your core to have a use, or because they're of limited use later. And, they're all cheap enough to e worth a try.

 

[Gyathaar]

Why not? It's cheaper and you can still maintain some research.

I will garrison eventually in the biggest cities (settler factories and other cities that benefit from being big).. I wont use garrisons to keep the capital happy when it grows to size 2.. it is better to use that warrior to get contacts/explore .. or to use the shields on settler/worker/granary imo.

Every map is different thou, and there is no absolute strat I will follow in all cases.. what victory condition you go after will also decide what the build orders are too...

I will build spearmen in some cases.. while in others it is a total waste.
For a larger HoF map it would usually be best to only build cariots/horsemen/knights/cav and artillery units.. (plus workers and settlers) and then just blitz though the AIs faster than they can react..

 

[Pentium]

About the first warrior, I agree, but later when I have a couple of contacts I prefer MP over lux.

 

[Gyathaar]

About the first warrior, I agree, but later when I have a couple of contacts I prefer MP over lux.

I usually switch to republic before 1000BC if possible, so no MP possible for most of the game

 

[TruePurple]

When creating settlers or workers in a town who has two shield/two food a square tiles around it plus grainery. Workers waste a turn and settlers waste 3 turns.(as city growth catches up to city production) Any suggestions?

 

[vmxa]

TruePurple you have a decent start location, but you look to be playing it like you are on warlord. I would strongly advise dumping that CxxxxC spacing.

Why did you not resarch writing?
Why only two scouts, if this is at least a std size, I would want 3 or 4.
Why does the name of the file say 3100BC when it is 1025BC?
Did you pop an advance tribe for GoldMine town? I would not want that town at this time.

You have two massive rivers and only the capitol is found on them? Yeah I know you wanted the wines and Iron, but it is not a good idea to build out like that IMO.

At least use the river tiles first and get the extra commerce. As was menioned irrigating grass under Despotism is a waste of time. YOu get two food either way.

I would not care much about the Pyramids, but if I did want it I would have another town or two popping out workers. Send them over to mine grass and irrigate plains and after they did a tile add them into the capitol and get my size up to the point where I could get the wonder first.

 

[mastertyguy]

I don't understand the question

Simple. First, it was not a real question. I just remarked you have a few useless irrigation on grassland. Under despotism, it is useless. You should have mined those tiles. Irrigating grass is like doing nothing at all, until you get republic (or any other gov).
And I'll say like vmxa, you have too much space between your cities.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

When creating settlers or workers in a town who has two shield/two food a square tiles around it plus grainery. Workers waste a turn and settlers waste 3 turns.(as city growth catches up to city production) Any suggestions?

Those are the cases where your production is slightly higher than growth. Here, build a warrior when you predict your city will not be able to build a settler or worker.
This most often is the case in new cities i built. Often, i want to start building a worker in this city, but it has 2 shields and 2 food, producing 20 shields before growth. This is where i build those few warrior during my expansion phase for scouting and for MP in the biggest city.

but also when you expect to waste only 1 or 2 turns, i often build a warrior. After that, maybe you can build 2 settlers in a row and then a warrior again. Wasting only 2 or 3 shields with a settler build doesn't bother me though, in that case i don't build a warrior.

If you waste shields when you build a settler, but not when you build a worker, and you actually need a settler, then first look if you can swap with another city that is making a worker and could make a settler (unless the position where the settler would be produced is not good)

 

[NWOG]

The GotM/HoF veterans will usually tell you they're a waste. The SG/variants/'play out horrible starts' veterans will tell you defenders are crucial.

What does GotM/HoF and SG mean?