WOTM 02 First Spoiler: Progress to 500AD

Gyathaar · Oct 20, 2006

WOTM 02 Spoiler 1:

Reading Requirements

You must have knowledge of the majority of the starting continent (know the cultural boundaries of the other civs.
You must have reached at least 0 AD.

Posting Restrictions:

No discussions of events past 500 AD.
No screenshots of anything not on the starting continent, or screenshots that shows details of very remote parts of home continent.

whb · Oct 20, 2006

Well this is a game with inconveniently placed resources!

Seoul was founded in place, and Pyongyang 1sq west of the wines.

Never having played on raging barbs, I didn't realise quite how raging it is, otherwise I'd have made dang sure I got the Great Wall. As it was, I was beaten to it.

Wonsan was founded a little way north of Seoul, E of the mountain ridge, to try to expand a little despite the barbs. I founded Hinduism, and built Stonehenge, so border expansion does help. Apart from that, I started building walls, and the archer promotions help a lot. Thankfully careful archer training meant despite a running battle keeping my farms and camps up and running, I made it through the scary part without losing any cities or settlers.

I also built the Oracle, and unusally picked Monarchy for the tech. I had the option of Metal Casting or Code of Laws, but already having one religion I decided the chance to build the wineries for food and money around Pyongyang was a better option.

When Toku captured a barb city close to my borders on the West, things calmed down enough that I was able to capture a barb city to the north (with help from Toku removing one defender), settle the bronze and start a plan of pushing north capturing barb cities towards the horses.

Toku has my religion (I founded Hinduism), and still won't even open borders with me, so I'm hoping he'll trail behind in tech and become easy pickings in a few centuries, allowing for some westward expansion too.

This isn't going to be a fabulous game, but I do expect to win it fairly comfortably from here. (If I get time to finish it - I've two different half finished GOTMs languishing on my hard-drive still). I'm lazy, so it'll probably be a space win.

Murky · Oct 20, 2006

This WoTM I decided that I will try for some sort of modern age victory, space race or diplomatic, depending on the political situation. Go to War only where necessary to gain the needed resources for victory.

4000 BC Seoul is Founded

Decided that I would build a worker first, research food techs then go with hunting->archery for protection from the raging barbarians. The worker was sent to farm the corn first, then pasture the sheep and camp the fur.

Also decided that it would be wise to build the Great Wall. This should effectively make the barbarians a trivial matter for me and a headache for my rivals. It also seemed reasonable to go for the CS slingshot with the Oracle.

There were some nail-biting moments against the barbarians but the Archers with the free promotions from the Protective trait worked out great. They held off the barbarian hordes until the Great Wall was completed.

While out exploring, I met Tokugawa, Qin, Cyrus and Catherine. No wars during this initial buid-up/tech period. Tokugawa took some barbarian cities and someone else built the Pyramids. Qin switched to Representation on the next turn, so I strongly suspect it was him. It will be difficult to take them from him given that he also has the Protective trait in Warlords.

3670 BC Agriculture
3430 BC Buddism is founded in a distant land...
3160 BC Animal Husbandry
2920 BC Hunting
2680 BC Archery
2470 BC Masonry
2140 BC Bronze Working
1990 BC The Wheel
1750 BC Polytheism, founded Hinduism in Seoul.

1600 BC Priesthood
1390 BC The Great Wall is completed in Seoul.

1330 BC Writting
1060 BC Founded the City of P'yongang 8W 1N from Seoul.
910 BC The Pyramids have been built in a distant land... :eek:

805 BC Code of Laws
805 BC The Oracle is built in Seoul

805 BC Confucianism is Founded in P'yongang
790 BC Discovered Civil Service (free tech from Oracle)
595 BC Alphabet
580 BC Fishing (trade)
580 BC Pottery (trade)
535 BC Sailing
415 BC Mathemathics
415 BC Great Engineer is born in Seoul
190 BC Iron Working
175 BC Construction
70 BC Literature
55 AD Completed the Temple of Artemis in Seoul
55 AD Completed The Great Library in P'yongang (using GE)
140 AD Metal Casting
170 AD Meditation
200 AD Monotheism
260 AD Calendar
275 AD Great Prophet is born in Seoul
320 AD GP built The Kong Mio in P'yongang
320 AD Monarchy for Hereditary Rule and Wine.
455 AD Horseback Riding

My dotmap

Spoiler :

AU_Armageddon · Oct 20, 2006

Heh, I went with Monarchy from Oracle myself. Financial Civ and all those wineries (I planted where Murky did) seemed a much better investment providing more science than you would get from a slingshot and significantly earlier, and I found it paid off well (Hereditary rule didn't hurt either and made me feel comfortable about forgoing Pyramids).

I went Religion and then Archery before Bronze myself too. Felt obliged to try capitalise on the trait. Beyond that, expanded up to the Marble for my 3rd in same spot as Murky there too, one more city west of Seoul on tundra river, and everything else I took from Japan who expanded madly. Gave me about 8 cities fairly early on. After Archery, Bronze for slaving/chopping, and getting Orcale/Monarchy, I had gunned for Construction and found a fairly small Hwatcha/Archer army was more than up to taking all of Japan.

After that I focused on diplomacy aiming for my first diplomacy win, strengthening ties with India and Persia while moving elephants and hwatha up to China for assimiliation (with the intention of blizt hacking down Russias population with Cav once I start building the UN).

All moved along fairly nicely. A very convenient map layout for just about anything you wanted to do.

gyo · Oct 20, 2006

hi,
(i'm not speak english perfectly)
i have lot of questions, but i don't ask these (WTH???)
My "empire's" poor history is here:

3940 BC GyoVáros founded
3580 BC Masonry
3250 BC Agriculture
2920 BC Archery
2290 BC Bronze Working
1900 BC Animal Husbandry
1600 BC Seoul founded
1300 BC P'yongyang founded
1240 BC Writing
925 BC The Wheel
715 BC Wonsan founded
280 BC Alphabet
220 BC Fishing

rkade8583 · Oct 20, 2006

I learned that tribute is necessary... VERY necessary. I also learned that putting archers on resources you NEED (food for my cities at that time) will save you trouble.

Yeah, 3 strikes and I was out. Can't wait for next months. Thanks a ton for making it epic.

PaganPaulWhisky · Oct 20, 2006

This one was really tough in the early stages. I had a much easier time with the test map. I got beat to the Great Wall by two turns so I had to deal with tons of barbs pillaging my resources in both cities. I was able to pull off a fuedalism slingshot which really saved me. My plan is to make Seoul into a super production city/unit pump and then go for domination/conquest since I am really far behind in cities. I will have to be aggresive with my longbows to catch up.

3371 BC - Hinduism founded
2170 BC - Buddhism founded
1900 BC - Pyongyang settled to the north to claim wines.
1060 BC - Great Wall constructed
1030 BC - Judaism founded
880 BC - Stonehenge constructed.
565 BC - Oracle completed in Seoul (Fuedalism taken for free).
550 BC - Adopted Vassalage
295 BC - Great Lighthouse built
115 BC - Confuciansim founded in Pyongyang
125 AD - Wonsan founded to the north of Pyongyang to grab copper.
245 AD - Numidian captured by Korea
350 AD - Adopted Bureaucracy

Will probably grab construction next and prepare to invade China or Japan with Hwatchas and longbows and then follow up with Literature for Glib.

drkodos · Oct 21, 2006

Wang Kon
State of the Empire Address
500 AD

Our Beautiful Empire
Small, but bustling with activity in the year 500 AD.

Spoiler :

Our Military is currently very small, but we are gearing up production and when Macemen become available in a few turns we will have our mighty secret weapon ready to aid them as they will agressively and succesfully expand our Empire.

Spoiler :

The Capital.

Spoiler :

Demographics

Spoiler :

The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

The Good.
Having eschewed religion entirely at the onset, our illustrious and wonderful society has constructed The Great Wall. The skills and craft of our Engineers then focused upon knowledge to build the mighty Pyramids. And in the field of research, thanks to our Oracle and wisdom, Korean scientists lead every known nation iwith the advanced and superior knowledge. Our neighbors have been most respecting and generous of Korean brilliance and both sides have benefitted from our magnaminity. Our economy is number one and we are the wealthiest of the known cultures.

The Bad.
We are small and poorly defended. We will soon be calling on all citizens to take up arms as we soon mobilize to expand. But, our brilliant & world leading scientists will soon be delivering a new weapon of destruction which will lead us to glorious victory. Things will get tight, good people of Korea, but soon we will have the number of troops we need to accomplish our goals and assume our rightful place as world leader.

The Ugly.
We have lost a lot of citizens to the barbarians before we could get our magnificent Great Wall built. Losing our only two workers simultaneously while gambiting a forrest chop was too bold of our great leader, but with his wisdom(? :lol:

) and perseverance we have rebounded solidly and soon will taste the fruits of his minimalistic stylings. In your glorious leader's quest to bring you only the finest luxuries, foods, and nick-nacks from the entire world, we have suffered tremendous setbacks due to the brutalities of a tribe of brazen, uncivilized pests. But, your omniscient leader has now their days numbered. Soon they will meet the might of our new secret weapon, the likes of which no other culture capable of developing.

Fire and the very matter of the heavens will rain down upon the enemies of the soon-to-be mighty Korean Empire. Citizens of Korea, we need only step through this current threshold to enjoy the greater days ahead.

Major Events

Great Wall 1210 BC
The Oracle 325 BC
Heron. A Great Engineer 265 BC
The Pyramids 250 BC
Henry Bessemer. A Great Engineer 500 AD

Tech path:

Masonry
Hunting
Animal Husbandry
BronzeWorking
Writing
Meditation
Priesthood
The Wheel
Code of Laws
Civil Service (Oracle)
Agriculture
Pottery
Alphabet
Fishing (trade w/ Asoka)
Archery (trade w/ Cyrus)
Polytheism (trade w/ Cyrus)
Sailing (trade w/ Qin)
Metal Casting
Iron Working
Mathematics
Construction

Notes:

...I started building Oracle late thinking I would get a cash influx for research when someone else completed it. I was amazed I was the one that ended up building it! .....My early scouting efforts by the initial warrior ended when he was attaclked three time in one turn very early on..... I built two scouts from chop overflows to get some reconnoitering in but both were gacked early in their careers. While trying to chop out a third worker I tried to cross between the two cities, miscalculated the movement, and got both workers hung outside cultural boundaries where sure enough, they were eaten for lunch by an unseen barbarian archer on the next turn....I went hunting early (rare!) and developed the beavers for all the commerce which gave me a nice research lead which is the only thing I have going for me..... I am hoping to be so far ahead with the Macemen coming online in a few more turns that I can take out both the barb cities between me and Tokugowa and then eliminate his anti-social bass-ackwards civ before trying to head for a honest diplo-victory.

To Staff: I had a game freeze at year 145 BC. I needed to reload the autosave from the turn immediately prior to that turn (160BC) and replay that turn. There were no changes made whatsoever. All units were engaged so there was nothing done different, it was merely a matter of hitting the space bar like I did initially on that turn but I wanted to give heads-up on the save game file that I will submit, if that is ok. Thanks!

Pudd'nhead · Oct 21, 2006

Note: expanded 10/21, added screenshots autolog text etc

I actually just started this yesterday so I have it pretty fresh in my mind, I'm already well past 500 AD -- surprising how it flew by since it's epic & I'm usually pretty slow.

A couple early noteworty things:

1) Founded in place & then went for Buddhism right away & got it, even though I went for a worker right away too. If this sounds foolish or that I just got lucky, note I decided to go for meditation as first tech because I figured out I could probably get it & it was cheaper than hindism (170 vs. 230 or whatever) & still get hunting to build a beaver camp by the time the worker I started first turn was finished, so I could afford to expend the early research on a religion (if I had to get ag or BW or even polytheism first I probably would not have had the luxury of going for a religion, I would have ended up with the worker sitting twiddling thumbs, or at best just buidling a mine on hte nearby bare hill, which I didn't want to do). Near the end I had to switch to the 2 hammer/3 coin beaver square (from the 3/2) to get them to come out at same time, but it was worth the hassle. I didn't plan on going for lots of religions, so I went on to ag, archery, animal husbandry ... then Irealized none of the other religions had been founded yet so I went for Hinduism. Just missed it by 4 turns. Had a similiar experience with Judaism later -- probably would have gotten it if I hadn't done BW early in the vain hope of finding copper close enough. But I actually did get all the other religions (!), going only slightly out of my way (though I did use Oracle to get Theology/Christianity). Got Islam & Taoism in the same city, that should make for a nice wall street location in late game if I push out enough missionaries.

2) Although I played raging barbs before, this was a LOT more than I expected! I just went back in my autolog, it's my first experience & I had a lot more turned on than I probably wanted, I have every event in there. But it has a record of every battle I had, which is fascinating. Between turns 60 and 125 I had FOURTY TWO battles with barbarian units!!! 42 attacks in 66 turns, near the start of the game! I still can't believe that I survived it, let alone that I came through it pretty well, losing maybe one archer (plus the initial warrior a bit earlier to an animal). Those people who posted in the preview/save threads that they thought Protective was a waste, I wonder if they had factored in the need to repel that kind of onslaught! I'd built enough archer units that I could heal each one, I also took good defensive positions (cities and hills & often forests, only very rarely going on attack), although I did not have quite enough to guard every improved square & ended up having over half them pillaged. Still, I could not believe it: fourty two! I thought I was maybe building too many archers, but did it anyway becasue I wanted Seoul to grow & didn't have much else non-worker/settler choices that were appealing for quite a while. So I guess I was "smart" in spite of myself

Probably also got a lot because I had the archers in close for defence, didn't do much "fogbusting."

The Chinese got the Great Wall & with that rescue from distraction took an early lead that lasted a few thousand years (& someone else got Pyramids, forget who), with me solidly in second after the first few few dozend turns. I got Stonhenge as well as Oracle, plus more later, many of them made of marble, taking advantage of the nearby resource by pushing my second city out a little bit (maybe that's also why I had so many barbarians, my borders were so long & stretched, also I pulled in tight to defend, didn't do much fogbusting). Anyway I had a half dozen archers with 10exp by the time the dust settled. Oracle and Stonehenge are particularly nice pickups for this game for me, since they both gent Great Prophet points & I got both in same city (Seoul), it's letting me build shrines. But I was closing fast on the Chinese score-wise by 0 AD.. No wars at all in BC, except those 5 dozen or so barbarians (there were maybe another dozen or two that trickled through after the turn 60-125 rush). I got alphabet first too -- those beaver camps were nice early coin minters, I'm lgad I went for hunting before ag, and WAY before pottery! - and didn't have much luck at first, but got a lot of trades going later. Toku never wanted anything to do with me which was too bad, I really wanted to trade with him. Did most of my trading with chinese, indians, and especially Cyrus.

Finally, just curious, did anyone else have new forests grow near their cities like I did? Happened a good dozen times, I think I got a handful around Seoul alone. I've never seen forests pop up that often.

Added 10/21, with screenshots from an autosave from 470AD I saved:

First a third noteworthy thing, after reading the few accounts posted after me:

3) As mentioned above I may have gotten so many barbarians (over 50 battles) because I had such an extended border, which is because I founded Pyongang further away than I think others did, in the area to the north that is just south of the row of mountains and includes 2 gems, 1 pig, one banana, and one marble in the cultural border. This was just too good a location to ignore; I built a city were most others did too, around the wine valley just north of Seoul, but that was a later filler city. That could have been a disaster given how many barbs poured in, but in the end it worked out for whatever reason -- I probably helped myself by deciding to do this, I knew I would need to escort a settler out there & it pushed me to start beefing up the archer corp earlier than I have in any other game I've played. The key here was ultimately having a full handful of archers to deal with the raging barbs, and getting them in fortified positions in either cities or on forested hills (protecting improvements like beaver camps), with quick promotion to either city garrison 3, or a couple specialized with hill defence 1+2 to protect the camps. Pyonyang was actually attacked as many as 2-3 times in one turn, and I think > 5 times in the span of 3 turns, but with an archer fortified in there maxed out in exp & city garrison promotions, I don't think I was ever in such danger of losing that I was relying on batle luck to carry me through -- I almost always had the odds on my side at 90%+ I think (and the few combats I initiated were almost all 96%+ odds, against warriors or wounded barb archers). Building that city far to the north right away turned out to be a very good idea I think, as you can see from the screenshots the Chinese (benefitting form the great wall) were rapidly expanding into that space & probably would have beat me to it, in the end they resorted to building a city in the pass in the line of mountains, that settler would have almost certainly gone south a few squares into the sweet spot I took, if I was not already there.
___

The empire in 470 AD: 5 cities. Note four of the five have religions founded in them! The hatched cultural border around Nampo is because it was the original site of a barbarian city that the Japanese captured, then razed (thank goodness, it's a fantastic location for a city, I have no idea why they razed it, but I'm glad they did so I can refound there & get the location without a war!) The hatched cultural borders around Chengdu is due to Chinese founding a city in the mountain pass there -- I'm intentionally building cultural generating buildings there to get it to flip. The Great Library & Parthenon are contributing 18 of the :culture:

(thank you marble!)

Spoiler :

The Captial City: note I've built the Mahabodhi (Buddhist shrine) and am about to pop another great prophet to build my second shrine elsewhere. Because I have four religions & am planning for a fifth I am specializing this city to produce prophets, the Oracle, Mahadobi, & Stonehenge give me 5 :gp:

points with no speicailists, which is increased to 7 by the parthenon.

Spoiler :

Finally, here's the log of my first 125 turns, edited to remove uneventful turn loggings (still learning how to use autolog, I had all options turned on whcih produces a lot of uninteresting text about new turn etc.), to show all the barbarian hoards I encountered. According to demographics statistics screen I killed 32 warriors, 19 archers, 1 axeman, and 4 animals, I think all within the first 200 turns of the game:

Spoiler :

Gyathaar · Oct 21, 2006

drkodos said:
Soon they will meet the might of our new secret weapon, the likes of which no other culture capable of developing.

Fire and the very matter of the heavens will rain down upon the enemies of the soon-to-be mighty Korean Empire. Citizens of Korea, we need only step through this current threshold to enjoy the greater days ahead.

You are conducting nuclear weapons testing already?

drkodos said:
To Staff: I had a game freeze at year 145 BC. I needed to reload the autosave from the turn immediately prior to that turn (160BC) and replay that turn. There were no changes made whatsoever. All units were engaged so there was nothing done different, it was merely a matter of hitting the space bar like I did initially on that turn but I wanted to give heads-up on the save game file that I will submit, if that is ok. Thanks!

Reloading from autosave due to a crash should be ok

Vynd · Oct 21, 2006

This time out I wanted to try something unconventional. I was concerned about the difficulty of defending my territory against the raging barbarians. I had a feeling it might be more difficult than in the most recent GOTM. So I decided to try and get the Great Wall built as quickly as possible, pretty much to the exclusion of everything else. Then I would try and maximize its value by carefully expanding outwards so as to minimize my settler’s exposure to attack and keep my needs for military units to a minimum.

In the longer term, I was leaning towards a Cultural victory if the map seemed at all suitable.

I played a couple of test games using Svelte’s save, to see if it was even possible to build the Great Wall before being overrun. They convinced me that it was workable strategy, but not entirely without risk. In the test I saw a constant stream of barbarians before it was completed and lost all my improvements.

I settled in place and sent my warrior out for some conservative exploring. I didn’t want to lose him to an animal! My initial research was Bronze Working. I wanted to be able to chop, and pop rushing might come in handy as well. And if I did spot Bronze early on I might change strategies. My early scouting found nothing to change my plans, however. Tokugawa found me in 3160BC. My favorite xenophobic, non-tech-trading, jerk. Wonderful!

My first two builds were warriors, while I waited for Seoul to reach pop 2. Then I built a worker, who started mining the plains hill to the NW. By this time I was almost done with my second tech: Agriculture. Farming the Corn was something I hadn’t tried in my tests, but I’d realized it would let me work more hammers faster than any other improvement, and indeed this proved to be the case.

After Agriculture I researched Masonry. I built a third and fourth warrior while that was being researched, and then started construction on the Great Wall in 2620 BC. This gave me five warriors to defend my empire while the Wall was under construction. Seoul was working the corn, the mined hill, and a forested grassland. When it reached 4 pop I shifted to the corn, the mine, and two of the unimproved fur, at the cost of any growth. The worker was chopping forests along and just outside my northern cultural boundaries. I think he contributed 72 hammers, about a fifth of the wonder’s cost. By now I had pulled back my scouting warriors to positions just outside my borders, trying to pick up a few cheap XP fighting animals. I managed to get a coupe of Combat I warriors before barbarians showed up, at around 2200BC.

After Masonry I was lucky enough to research Polytheism before anyone else and establish Seoul as the Hindu holy city in 2110BC. This was also the turn when I fought and killed my first Barbarian Warrior. All I’d been trying to do was get to Monotheism, but with Hinduism in hand I delayed that goal until after getting Hunting

The barbarians proved to not be a problem for Seoul. Only two, both warriors, entered my borders. They slowed my production by a few turns by moving on to improved tiles (I was hoping they’d attack my warriors in the trees) but did no pillaging and died without inflicting casualties. I did almost lose my worker to a foolish Go To command, but he was bailed out when The Great Wall was completed in 1840 BC (Turn 72).

With phase one of my plan complete, it was time to start expanding. Seoul started work on a Settler while I sent most of my warriors out in groups of two to scout. This was also about the time that I decided for certain that I would go for a Cultural victory. Seoul would have to be one of my cultural cities, even though it wasn’t well-suited for cottaging. Instead it would have to use its high production to build lots of cultural wonders. My warriors soon identified what I felt were two pretty good places for my other culture cities: 1) Northwest of Seoul, near Gems, Pigs, Marble, and lots of grasslands. 2) West of Seoul, with an Oasis, Pigs, Wheat, Incense, and a river.

Judaism was founded in Seoul in 1450BC, the same turn my first Settler was completed. I thought long and hard about where to put that second city. I finally concluded that all of the best spots were too far away, and put Pyongyang near all the Wine, for a slow-developing production city.

Pyongyang started on my second worker while Seoul began Stonehenge. Part of me wanted to try for the Pyramids instead, but I decided it would take too much time. As it turns out, China completed it in 1000BC, way before I could have done it. Speaking of China, Qin established contact with me in 910BC, before which time I’d though the area to my north was empty of other civs.

After Stonehenge, Seoul built two Settlers in a row and then started on the Oracle. I’d directed my research so as to set myself up for a Civil Service slingshot. My third Settler founded Wonsan, my intended second culture city, with Gems x 2, Pigs, Banana, and Marble, in 700BC. I immediately hooked up the Marble and dedicated Wonsan to building the Parthenon. My fourth Settler was intended to be my third culture city, but I discovered that the barbarians had founded the city of Sakae right where I wanted it to be (the second location described above). I ended up placing it west of Wonsan to get access to Copper. While all of this was going on, I generated a Great Prophet in Seoul, which I used to build the Kashi Vishwanath in 625BC.

I researched Code of Laws in 355BC, making Wonsan the holy city of Confucianism. The next turn I finished the Oracle and took Civil Service. I researched Alphabet next and picked up a number of early techs off of Qin.

Pyongyang and Seoul built a few Axemen now that I had copper hooked up. In 80AD they captured Sakae, my intended third culture city. This was the end of my expansion for awhile. Meanwhile, however, I’d built a workboat and sent it east. Between that and an exploring Warrior I soon mapped out the eastern half of the continent and met Asoka and Cyrus. Catherine contacted me from the other direction. Hinduism spread well: China and Persia both converted to it during the early ADs. I myself was sticking to no religion at this point, so the culture from all my religions would accumulate instead of just culture from one religion.

Wonsan finished the Parthenon in 185AD. Two turns later I founded Christianity, with Sakae as its holy city. I sent my second Great Prophet there and built the Church of the Nativity soon thereafter. I’d originally intended to make Wonsan or Sakae a Great Artist farm but I realized that it’d take me way too long to get it set up for that to be worthwhile. So instead I built my National Epic in Seoul and accepted the fact that I’d probably get more Great Prophets than I really wanted. It was finished in 470AD. My other culture cities were building basic infrastructure and theatres during this timeframe.

With the Great Wall in place, I’d had very little need for military. I watched happily as a steady trickle of barbarians skirted my territory on their way to attack Tokugawa. In fact my military was so small, and the income from my shrines so great, that I was running 90% or 100% science in the early ADs, despite not even starting to build any cottages until 365AD! That’s good in a way, but I regretted my late start on cottages later, as their slow maturation held back my culture production somewhat. I think this is symptomatic of my tendency not to build enough workers early on.

Manic_ · Oct 21, 2006

bit mad

I settled in place, whice was a nice location, the next city was difficult, i ended up settling it up 1E of the top wines, in order to gain the pigs. otherwise the location there would be short on quick growth because it was mostly plains. The third city was located to the SE of the Capital, on the plains tile on the river, placed there to get wheet, silver and deer. I got Iron working and settled my last city 1E of the mountain and 1W of 2nd deer on the south coast so the iron was in my SSW tile of that city. The other cities i took were barb (taken with 4 swords stacks) two to the north (Up to the jungle/mountain choke points), and one to the east. i beelined alpha to get trading techs with qui, cyrus and asoka who all loved me

.

Techs order.

Med - Hunt - BW - AH - Agri - Wheel - Fishing - Arch - Pott - Iron Working - Writing - Alpha - Priest - Sail

I attacked japan first in about 400 BC, they took a barb city so i took it as an easy target. I had their capital by 500 AD, although i didnt have Hwacha's by then (a nice UU i think) i took him with swords. He only had three cities left between me and catherine. I waited about 100 years to finish him off as upkeep was a worry.

The things i found from this game - protective civ for computer is very hard to take out, (prob the best for the AI to have). Archers with garrison 2 and sometimes 3 are usually at least 2 swordsmen usually 3 each espesh in the capital. This is also more apparent with feudalism and gunpowder to a lesser extent.

nice of gotm staff to put our two neighbours protective, makes it difficult for the more aggressive played to punch through.
I also think epic is the best speed to play at on this size map.

Also interesting that vassal states are ok im gotm but not hof with the same mod (i do see the reason).

Manic_

PS- hope you don't have to edit this time

Dill · Oct 21, 2006

Who's brilliant idea was it to have raging barbs? :rolleyes:

OK, this my first GOTM I've managed to find time to start, and only the 4th Civ IV game I've started, so you could say I need the experience....

However, I wasn't prepared for the barbs....

Started off with my normal gameplay - explore and consolidate... Built Seoul 1 square west of starting pos.

Here's a quick rundown on my fall....

2260BC - Started my first settler... figured I'd be safe with the few archers I had, so...
2230BC - Started Great Wall in Seoul.
1990BC - Stopped GW as raging barbs raged! Destroyed all improvments... Many Archers to build - hope to hang on!
1690BC - P'yongyang founded.
1300BC - GW take 2... much too late now...
850BC - P'yongyang Lost! Back to one city...
790BC - Started 2nd settler. End of my attempts at the GW.
550BC - Wonsan founded. Both citys building archers...
70BC - Wonsan lost. Back to one city... Enters the Dark Ages... Kept saving every turn figuring it may be my last as Seoul is surrounded...
305AD - Started 3rd settler.
395AD - Pusan founded. Finally able to defend my territory from the barbs as I develop a workable strategy. Starting to build improvements again

So, I pass 500AD with 2 cities, one only a few turnd old. As you could imagine, I'm miles behind and my only goal is to survive.

I don't rid myself of the barbs until 1346AD...

Currently I'm at 1652AD and barely more than half the score of the next lowest opponent. Have about 7 cities, most are very new.

Any suggestions on winning strategies from here?

ewokimpi · Oct 22, 2006

Contender. I'm a Prince level player. My outcome at this point in my development is always Domnination/Conquest, with Space or Diplo as fallback positions.

I don't know, the way I've played this game so far feels horribly wrong and slow to me. No part of my initial plan went well, except the bit about building about a 1,000 warriors and archers to head off the barbs...

The bad: I relied too much on the fur in the initial start position and the wine in the 2nd city position, neglecting to build cottages. As by 500 AD Korea had seven cities and was about to take over Tokugawa's empire, research was going into the toilet. I could have prioritized the Great Library, but let the Qin have it. I built only about 2/3 the workers needed.

The good: Worker steal from Tokugawa early came off. He was a cripple, and never got as far as Samurai, definitely a "good thing". Take a look at what Kyoto is built on, and what is one tile away.

Spoiler:

Spoiler :

When I started the game, I apparently intended on an expansion start, neglecting Wonders for a long time. The test game showed that Stonehenge and/or the Oracle could be built later than 1000 BC with some chance of success. I was going to use Monuments in cities to take territory from the barbs, as well as relying on Protective archers. I intended the 2nd city to be financial in nature to take advantage of Korea's trait, and the 3rd to be military (hammers). The capital was to settle in place and produce units, and some money. The first war would be with Hwachas and best available melee unit, in late classical/early middle ages time frame. However, this is Prince, so if oportunity knocked, I intended to answer the door.

Planned on building in capital: Warrior, Warrior, Worker (begin at size two), finish Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, (best available military), Settler (2050 BC), baMil, baMil, Settler (1540BC), baMil, Stonehenge (970BC!!! in test game). three mil later, Library, Barracks, Oracle (460BC!!! in test game).

Tech plan was: Hunting (for camp, leg up to archery), AH (for sheep), [Wheel (hoping to see horses)], BW (for mining forested hills, maybe CU), Agri, Pottery, Writing, Alpha.

What Happened? :wallbash:

Event log and exposition:

Spoiler :

So at 500 AD, empire consists of seven cities. A war of elimination with Hwachas and Macemen (and soon Elephants) is prepared for Tokugawa, to start in 45 years. The first Great Person is about to be born in the capital. And research is at 50%. The Qin are well in the lead, and about to become tech leader. But hey, it's just Prince level. Victory is still possible.

Techs:

Spoiler :

Initial Build Capital:

Spoiler :

So before AD 1, the capital produces 6 warriors and 10 archers to hold back the barbs. Since I felt the map dictated expanding perpendicularly into the continent, in an area less well bounded then GOTM11, a LOT of fog busters and barb defense units were needed. And since my strategy devolved into one of settling lot's of cities (6), Korea needed lots of military.
THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY.

I don't have exact stats on empire at 500 AD, as never remember to save then. Shortly after that point, the pitiful stats of the Korean empire were:

33 pop, 72 sci at 50%, -4 cost, (140 sci at 100%) 106 gold, 59 hammers, 78 food, 36 culture, 8 great person.
Military is 4 workers, 8 archers, 2 warrior, 1 sword, 7 Axes, 1 spear, 4 Hwachas, 2 Triremes

So at 500 AD, empire consists of seven cities. A war of elimination with Hwachas and Macemen (and Elephants) is prepared for Tokugawa, to start in 45 years. The first Great Person is about to be born in the capital. And research is at 50%. The Qin are slightly in the lead, and will become tech leader as Korea's science rate tanks. But hey, it's just Prince level. Victory is still possible.

ewokimpi · Oct 22, 2006

Posted by Dill:

Any suggestions on winning strategies from here?

Beeline for the UN, I guess. The last refuge for the doomed.

If you could get Korea to be vassal to the eventual winner, would Korea then win the game too?!?

About Barbs:

Although I can't recommend my game as a sterling example, I'm guessing the best approachs are, early GW, as you tried, or a three city strategy: Capital, Wine city, Wheat/Deer city. This is small defensible area, and needs fewer defenders than the aggressive/expansive strategy I tried. With the block of three cities created, Korea should gain the freedom to build stuff other than archers, as some of the barb pressure is off.

ToxicBones · Oct 22, 2006

My first game ever on epic

As I had Great Wall when barb archers came the barbs didn't hurt me so much.

Cities:
4000 BC Seoul (In place)
2500 BC P'Yongyang (Gems+Pigs, this place is so great that distance doesn't matter, far before researching monarchy)
1330 BC Wonsan (Pigs+wheat)
700 BC Pusan (Iron, 2x deer)
625 BC Namp'o (2x banana, cow)
490 BC Cheju (wine)
55 BC Hyangsan (Iron, corn (close to Japan))
245 AD Ulsan (sugar, elephant, horse)
425 AD Inch'on (Rice, horse (north))

Events:
1120 BC The Great Wall (Seoul)
955 BC Stonehenge (P'yongyang)
835 BC The Oracle (Seoul)
820 BC Bureaucracy adopted
385 BC The caste system adopted
370 BC Great egineer born
310 BC Great Library (GE), (Wonsan, for GS farm)
265 BC Parthenon (Seoul)
85 BC Great Scientist born
230 AD Great Scientist born
410 AD Great Scientist born
440 AD War with Japan!!
470 AD Tokyo invaded!
500 AD Kagoshima invaded!
560 AD Tokugawa is first to circumnavigate the globe(!)

Techs:
3670 BC Agriculture
3430 BC Hunting
2980 BC Animal Husbandry
2770 BC Archery
2410 BC The Wheel
2110 BC Masonry
1930 BC Pottery
1690 BC Writing
1480 BC Polytheïsm (Founded Hinduïsm!)
1360 BC Priesthood
880 BC Code of Laws (Founded Confucianism)
820 BC Civil Service (Oracle)
685 BC The Alphabet
670 BC Bronze Working (Trade)
670 BC Fishing (Trade)
625 BC Meditation (Trade)
625 BC Monotheïsm (Founded Judaïsm)
520 BC Iron Working
370 BC Literature
250 BC Monarchy
160 BC Mathematics
40 BC Construction
65 AD The Calender
170 AD Metal Casting
350 AD Machinery
455 AD Currency

ewokimpi · Oct 22, 2006

Posted by ToxicBones:

2500 BC P'Yongyang (Gems+Pigs, this place is so great that distance doesn't matter, far before researching monarchy)
...
1120 BC The Great Wall (Seoul)
955 BC Stonehenge (P'yongyang)
835 BC The Oracle (Seoul)

Never occured to me to put the 2nd city there. :sad:

This looks like a GREAT start!

Pudd'nhead · Oct 22, 2006

Toxicbones it sounds like you put your second city in exactly the same place I did -- see my original post from yesterday, it's now updated with more info and screenshots. You managed to get it founded 450 years before I did, though! Probably because you went straight for ag & then hunting & didn't bother with religions, like I did with gettig meditation first. I debated about going straight for ag like you did, but in the end just couldn't resist the chance to snatch budhism.

It seems like for other people the other computer players were expanidng much slower in my game. For example, GW was gone way before you built it in your game, and I notice others scored Hinduism and Judaism much later than the computer players grabbed them in mine (in both cases just beating me out)

BLubmuz · Oct 22, 2006

@drkodos
your spoiler is a real fun (especially in those days), you're probably the most pleasant guy around here.

A short spoiler, not much happened, if you don't consider the infinite fight against barbs.
Luckily i'm playing SGotM2 and right finished GotM11 with raging barbs, then I guess the better thing to do was to build the Great Wall (amazing movie, this time).
Then my very first research was:
hunting, wheel, Agri, archery, AH, masonry, and BW.
Barracks first, interrupted by a worker at size 2, then archers (5 if i'm not wrong) ... my first melee unit was a maceman, millennia later.
I lost only 1 archer, keeping them in defence in forested hills, and attacking only in plain terrain (usually corn).
Finally, in 1270 the GW was completed, with the pleasure to see 2 barb warriors pushed out automatically from my cultural borders.

It was a 1 city challenge, then the first build after the GW was a settler, to grab marble, gems and pigs, and to found Confu (already founded Judaism). but never took a state religion.

Oracle in 325BC (in pyongyang), Parthenon in 20 AD and GLibrary in 170AD.
In the meantime, China built Pyramids and ToA, becomig my first target, but after 1000 AD (basically my army was of some 5 archers + 1 warrior for the BC years).

I think most of the resouces are placed to force to specialize the cities, but all seems very slow to produce (and epic is my favourite speed).

Sorry guys, i was duped by the autolog (and by the late time).
I promise i'll don't write spoilers after 1AM from now on.
I never built Parthenon, and if i remember correctly, China never built ToA.
This was in WotM1 (ToA by Korea).
The other things seem correct, i'll be exhaustive in the final spoiler.

Meatbuster · Oct 22, 2006

OVERALL STRATEGY
Contender game, because I wanted religion this game.

The great drkodos' prediction of a triple whammy (no easily accessible bronze, iron AND horses) caused me to consider a Feudalism slingshot. And after exploring for those tasty grape vines, how can I refuse? After weighing Feud slingshot vs CS slingshot, I decided that Feudalism path would be better for my empire.

~~Wang Kon~~ Kim Il-Jung being Financial automatically means Cottage (+ Camp and Winery and Gem Mines) Spam trumps Specialist Economy.

Actually I have forgotten to rename my leader as Kim Il-Jung so far. But I'll get around to it.

INITIAL CAPITAL BUILD
Wow, a coastal start with no coast resources.

Seoul's build was Worker, Warrior (to size 2), Archer (to size 3), Settler. Then I build nothing but Archers (also whipping a Granary somewhere) until I am able to build Oracle.

EXPLORATION AND EXPANSION
I first explored North, seeing the wine site and that just screamed I GOTTA RUSH FEUDALISM! I stopped exploring north upon seeing the 2 gems, pig site and went west, spotting Tokugawa's... EXPOSED WORKER! I waited for it to get to the borders and I steal it!

I escort it back home (boy was I sweating every step the warrior + worker took) and he made it! I had two workers early game while having only built one, which I consider a tremendous advantage since I had to rebuild the fur camps a lot of times.

I grab Monarchy pretty early, making the "super site far from capital" (my third city) much less attractive for me than to settle the wine spot immediately.

Cities, cities, in order of appearance
1. founded Seoul on the spot
2. founded Pyongyang west of the wines (see drkodos' screenshot)
3. founded Wonsan to grab the 2 gems, pig, ignoring the bronze
4. attacked barb city in jungle north of Wonsan
5. founded fourth city (forgot the name) at where the barb city was in drkodos' screenshot

TECHNOLOGY AND MILITARY
The Oracle is kinda built late (700BC+), I was confident I could get it, what with me leaving the Wall and Henge to the AI. I didn't need the Henge anyway since BUDDHISM = MINE! Boy, I really love that feeling.

Tech Order: Meditation, Hunting, Archery, Agri, Wheel, Pottery, Mining, Bronze Works, Priesthood, Monarchy, Writing, Feudalism (free tech), Alphabet, Literature, Math, Construction...

Acquired from trade: Fishing :eek:

, Sailing, AH, Polytheism, Iron Working, Masonry

And I'm currently researching Code of Laws, expecting to take Tokugawa's cities with my Longbow + Hwacha army. Pyongyang just expanded borders enough so I recently got Bronze, but so far (530AD) I have a whopping 0 Axemen and Spearmen, but over a dozen archers, at least one Longbow at every city, with Longbows and Hwacha already parked at the doorstep of Tokugawa's nearest good city (after they razed one of his cities in a bad spot).

Poor Toku, he's about to get a taste of deadly pyrotechnics. BTW I didn't rush him earlier, because I wanted him to expand first so I didn't need to build as many settlers.

Speaking of "dozen archers", the fog-busting operation got pretty nasty in the BC's.

RELIGION AND WONDERS
Being Financial, Korea and all, and I've never founded Buddhism, I decided, I gotta have Buddhism this game. And I did! I jumped for joy, danced around, and... wait a minute, you didn't need to know that.

Even though this game is "Raging Barbs" I didn't go for the Great Wall. :eek:

But as a result I needed a much larger archer army than the people who have the Wall. As a side-effect I was able to use some of them as MP (monarchy police), and soon, they will keep the peace in cities taken from Japan.

Built the Mahabodhi with the Great Prophet from the Oracle + 1 priest specialist. I needed the Priest to get the Great Prophet faster before I finish the Great Library.

I hope to get a scientist next.

I was going to do a modified CS slingshot with the Prophet then I realized that I needed Masonry to research Construction. So much for that, but I research quick anyway at this stage thanks to my wines. It's only a matter of time until I research CS manually after code of laws.

in short, my wonders are (in build order):
Oracle, Mahabodhi, TGL

WOTM 02 First Spoiler: Progress to 500AD

Warlock

WOTM 02 Spoiler 1:

King

Deity

Cenobyte

Chieftain

Realism Invictus Player

Chieftain

Emperor

Chieftain

Warlock

Prince

Prince

Chieftain

A Tribal Force

A Tribal Force

Chieftain

A Tribal Force

Chieftain

HoF Quattromaster

formerly Robo Kai

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