WOTM 08 First Spoiler

[Amao]

Well, I think it's better i write this down before I start forgetting the details.

The Planning

I hadn't played any GOTM ever since GOTM2, though I sometimes check some of the previous played threads. Fortunately, Sisiutil's current ACL game was also featuring Ottoman and I had just read his pregame introduction of MII where I learnt some basic features. But I haven't played any arid map before. So, the first thing I did was to follow the pre-game discussion, and started playing some testing games with the game settings. Then it was pretty obvious to me that Erkon's suggestion most fit my style. The chariot will provide good early protection against any animals and up to axeman on this mainly flat map settings. It also provides possibility for an early rush if the neighbor is close enough. Of course, you have to have horse nearby, so it's a gambit. Other than that, test games told me that the barbs could be really crazy, if you don't have a overpowering army, you'd be in trouble. So, GW is an option, but I thought it would depend on what resource I could immediately have access to. If I could get horse and/or copper, barb won't do much damage. And consider we won't have a super production capital, spending a lot hammers on GW maybe just as equal as some military units which could be multi-purpose, well just my thoughts.

Well, my original plan was to dominate the homeland asap, and then tech to astro and invade. This would be the easiest way for me to complete the game.

So, after debating a little bit, I finally loaded my 3rd GOTM with mixed feeling.

The Beginning: before 1000BC

According to my pregame plan based on Erkon's blueprint, I should start to build a work boat right away. But where was the work boat option? doh! no fishing! OK, plan B right now! What a game plan! Well, i decided i'd still go for AH first, and started to build a worker. Warrior went northwest-wards.

Got AH and met Mansa at 3600BC. And then I saw the horse to the north. It wasn't a great site, but I really need it. I started research Fishing, then Mining, then, BW. No copper nearby. Well, at least I could get some mounted units and the whip!

I began building an warrior after the worker. Worker started to farm one of the floodplain and build some road towards north. (couldn't do anything else yet. ) After the pop grew to 2, i switched to work boat before finishing the warrior. work boat finished in 2880BC and fish net started working on 2800BC and my food began to grow like crazy. I finished a warrior and began another, but switched to settler when pop reached 4. Finished the settler on 2320BC and the warrior the next turn, and whip a granary the turn after. Founded Edirne on 2200BC with immediate access to the horse, and started building granary there. Finished Stonehenge at 1200BC, just a preference.

My first Chariot was built at 1760BC, and started killing barb right away. And both cities started to pop Chariots. And i slowly move my stream of Chariots to the south towards Mansa's land. I first survyed Mansa's land and found he's already got Skirmishes up in the capital. Too bad, no free meals. However, I did found his 2nd and 3rd cities were poorly defended with a couple of warriors at either city. But Mansa was sending a skirmisher to his 2nd city.

The War: 975BC - 350AD

It was then or never, I had 2 Chariots in range and a 3rd around the his capital. So, when I declared, it teleport my 3rd Chariots right to the attacking range and move one of my standby Chariot one block north to yield to the coming Skirmisher. Then, the war started, I killed the 2 warrior in no time with no loss. And, then killed the skirmisher in the open with no loss! There was a third MM's warrior around in the forrest to the east, but instead of trying to take the city back. That warrior went north. Didn't I mention that I had a stream of Chariots coming down?

Once I got another full strength Chariot, (either coming from south or recovered from the battle), I sent him to survey the 3rd city and see if MM got a skirmisher there. The answer was no. Just 2 warrior, so, I attacked and killed one of them. 3 turns later, I capture MM's 3rd city. And by now I have decided not to pursue peace until either I destroy MM or I couldn't afford the war because of the warweariness. I sent all my Chariots into MM's territory to seige the city and my military expenses exploded. And I found MM built a fourth city with pontential copper access. This city had to be destoryed! I assembled 5 to 6 Chariots and I got my first war loss there. But the city was burned to ground, and I made sure MM won't have any mounted units, spear man, axeman, and/or swordman showed up unless he got longbow.

So, I spent some some time teched around and managed to build Oracle at 425BC before I finally focused on Construction, and got it in 275BC, and by 350AD, Mansa's capital fell to an army of Catapults.

Techs

My tech progress by 500AD, very messy.

(3600 BC) Animal Husbandry
(3400 BC) Fishing
(3160 BC) Mining
(2720 BC) Bronze Working
(2440 BC) Pottery
(2080 BC) Writing
(1840 BC) Masonry
(1720 BC) Mysticism
(1440 BC) Polytheism
(1320 BC) Priesthood
(800 BC) Code of Laws
(725 BC) Sailing
(675 BC) Meditation
(500 BC) Mathematics
(400 BC) Philosophy
(275 BC) Construction
(125 BC) Iron Working
(225 AD) Calendar
(325 AD) Monotheism
(375 AD) Theology

 

[Amao]

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

ouch! 2800BC? i could be destroyed as well if barbs came at that time in my game!

 

[Thrallia]

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

ouch...if I recall, at 2800BC I had 4 warriors, 1 defending Istanbul, 1 defending my worker and 2 exploring. I was building a settler to settle my second city at the time, so if I'd seen more than a couple barbs I woulda been in trouble too. The only reason I was protecting my worker was because I knew it was raging barbs, and had no desire to win a second red ambulance lol

 

[BLubmuz]

They did it, once again.
If a game is on noble, we are supposed to play at this difficulty.
Why give a start like the one MM has? That hill is insulting for the players, and he has lot of resources, with no need to advantage him in this way.
The tech pace the AI can have at this level is the one of the other continent, not the one MM has.
Our luxury resources are buried in the jungle, and without GW it would be a small war to hook and keep any.
In addiction we need some less-than-optimal cities to hook some resource like fur or wine.

I really don't understand why in any GotM you invent something to alter the balance... isn't the RNG enough?

 

[AgedOne]

This is what I get for not reading. I didn't realise it was raging barbs until I checked after my 2800 BC capital sacking by barb warrior. Never even met an AI.

Yow! Were these normal barbarians?? Or did somebody let them out of a hut somewhere?
I certainly didn't think barbs appeared until about turn 50 / 2000BC.
In this game I didn't see even the hair on one of their heads until turn 60 / 1600BC!!

I just checked my notes. In 2800BC I had the stately total of 2 warriors to protect me. I'd just learned BronzeWorking - but a lot of good that was for early units!!

Unlucky.

 

[BLubmuz]

I already posted my thoughts about this map.
To clarify: i appreciate the Staff efforts, but i feel that sometime the games are too much unbalanced. IMHO a balanced map for the level increases the enjoyability of the game, helps to attract more people and more submissions.

My game:
Settle in place, warrior/worker.
Research fish/pottery/hunting/writing/mining/AH
then the path for the CS sling: myst/poly/masonry (for GW)/priest/Col
then Math/Alpha
I've built my first WB after the GW, to avoid excessive growth (i can't whip, no BW).
If i has no horses i would have go for archery before myst.
Cottages and more cottages, mined and roaded hills
Edirne founded in t47 (2120 BC), 1N of the water, to grab the horses: warrior/chariot/chariot/oracle (with a chariot after few turns to replace the one lost against a warrior - damn RNG).
Library in Istanbul in 1360 BC, then the stone was hooked, GW - finished in 800 BC, the following turn (775 BC) Math was learned and the Oracle completed, revolt to B. and caste in 700.

Alpha ready in 460 BC, to discover MM has lots of techs.
Traded for sailing, archery, BW, researched Literature/IW/MC
Traded for Construction and Currency.
My research was at 80% for almost all the game, lowered at 60/70% during the Malinese war.
My scouting chariot mapped MM terrritory, with a "sugar" barb city freshly captured by MM; for some reason he culture bombed in this city, delaying the gems in my 5th city.
3rd city to grab the Iron, just to see it popping up in a hill near Istambul 2 turns later.
4th for southern furs
5th for gems
6th to fill the land near the tundra horses.

The rest of the continent was filled by Mansa.
The UB rocks, especialy in this map.
I was building the HG when a GE popped out of Edirne (yes, Pyramids built in 150 BC, repr/slavery in 425 AD. i forget to revolt )
Used GE for GL, and this costed me the HG, beaten for a turn by Mansa.

First GS for an Academy in Istambul in 425 AD (when i noticed i forget to revolt).
Optics in 520 AD and a simple plan: conquer all the continent in a 1 shot war with the help of my UU and be first to Liberalism to get Astronomy.
I stopped the tech trading with MM after the 3 above mentioned, i didn't want him too advanced.
Better wait for the other civs, he was behind me in the Astro path, he was following a complete different res. path (economics).
He revolted to Vassalage in 50 BC (absolutely out of parameters for a Noble game).

Raging barbs: some warrior (lost a chariot ), perhaps an archer, never seen an axe and the only barb galley who pillaged a food resource manage to do it because my Frigates was far away

To be Continued... with some thought about the UU

 

[Thrallia]

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

 

[Amao]

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

Didn't know the only AI would trade you, I'd have picked another approach otherwise.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think it was done to help the player, actually.

If you conquered him, you got great lands.
If you didn't conquer him, you got a trade partner that was able to keep up with you for awhile and was actually willing to trade with you since he was Mansa Musa, despite being the only AI on the continent.

This is not wrong, but I felt better to stop trading to avoid he was becoming too advanced.
He has guilds before i has Feudalism, and before i has machinery: can you imagine what can be happen if he decided i was too weak? (and i was, at that time).
As i posted above, luckily he followed the path to Economics (being first, of course). But if he would have followed the path to MT, i was out.

True, i finished with a great land after wiped him, but i needed cannons and janissaries, plus some gren.
A war at this level is usually fought with maces and cats, against longbows and HAs.
That 2 gold hills in Timbuktu FC with the fp/p one was too much for me, especially compared with our start: 1 fur in tundra, iron and wine in 2 barely acceptable cities.
Not to mention the stone out of any decent city FC.
If i started exploring with the chariot only some 4 or 5 turns before, probably i would have take the "sugar barb city", and this is my fault.
I really don't know how someone can have wiped MM with axes and cats, but congrats to them.

 

[Amao]

I really don't know how someone can have wiped MM with axes and cats, but congrats to them.

Chariots rush and luck. My chariots crushed all his cities except the capital because he already got tons of Skirmishers there. However, he had NONE at his ring cities when I attacked. Then, i just used Chariots to pillage his horse, stood on his golds, and waited for my cats to be abundant. As you can see, my tech was SLOW...

BTW: I didn't discover IW until pretty late. So, I barely had axes at early AD and most of them were busy defending the vast northern desert. I did send one axe to MM, but he was one block too late for the final battle. So it was a Chariots/Cats rush.

 

[BLubmuz]

@ Amao
Thanks for your answer.
Of course, when i decided my early strategy i didn't know Mansa lands, nor i knew he was my only neighbor.
When i saw stone (turn 2, i think), 2 things jumped on my mind:
raging barbs + stone = GW ASAP
stone = pyramids (pity i forget to revolt to repr. for 500 years... )

Not having seen much of the land, and knowing usually 1000/800 BC is a safe date for Oracle on Noble, but the bottleneck is research in warlords, i went fot the CS slingshot.

Also, skirmishers are strong enough (4 vs. 3 of a normal archer), and without cats it would be impossible to win.

Anyway, good job , curious to see your next spoiler.

 

[Harbourboy]

What a great map. What I love about GOTM is that you just know there will be something different about it compared to your normal single player games.

I was pretty depressed about a feeble Noble performance, until reading this thread and seeing that many people had the same problems as I did keeping up with the Mansa Monster.

I settled in place, but got distracted by the Fishing red herring (get it?) and thus wasted tech and building time hooking up food resources that I didn't really need. I really need to pay more attention rather just following the same formula every time.

I fell behind pretty quickly and so the only wonders I got (and am ever likely to get) were Oracle, Great Wall, and Parthenon.

Like others here, this was my first lesson that Great Wall does not extend out to sea. I guess this makes sense - it is a "wall" after all, not a reef.

No copper - my early rush plans went out the door because by the time I got iron, Mansa had longbowmen and crossbowmen eek

Not really sure what to do from here. Maybe cultural is my only window of opportunity.

 

[Vynd]

I settled in place, but got distracted by the Fishing red herring (get it?) and thus wasted tech and building time hooking up food resources that I didn't really need. I really need to pay more attention rather just following the same formula every time.

I had a hard time resisting the lure of those Fish in my game too... but I did end up putting them off for awhile and I don't think my game suffered for it. I amseriously wondering if the GOTM staff arranged this start to prove to us that it isn't always the best idea to follow the "let my city grow early while I produce Work Boats" strategy.

 

[Thrallia]

I hooked up one of the fish early, and hooked up the second one after I had built the Great Library in Istanbul...and I teched faster than I generally do up through 500AD.

 

[pigswill]

Got up to 300ad so far. Keeping up techwise with Mansa afaik. He's got feudalism and HBR, I've got machinery and lit. By way of a change I thought I'd go for astronomy beeline (no meditation, no CS, no theology). Got Oracle about 1200bc for MC, built Glib about 250ad. Founded confucianism and got shrine with first (so far only) GP.
Settled on start, fishing and pottery early on. Second city for horses in north, built a bunch of chariots for fogbusting which went ok, met about a dozen barb warriors and one barb archer, all defeated without loss. Once I'd noticed the gem/marble/sugar spot I rushed a settler down there and beat Mansa by a couple of turns (it also makes an excellent choke point) which subsequently became confucian holy city. Foruth city went on northern iron, it will be a useful fishing village long term and short term meant I could build/whip units if Mansa became feisty.
Next GP is due in 3 turns (66%GS,33%Prophet); don't know what do with a prophet; maybe settle it. A GS could go on optics (saving 9 turns research) or maybe an academy in Istanbul. Not sure on that one. Currently researching construction to build a few cats, combined with crossbows and spears that should provide a reasonable army for the moment.

Looks like PA isn't an option. Main strategy decision at this point is whether to aim to vassalise Mansa or go for annihilation. I also need to Rex the north part of the island, at which point I'm likely to fall behind in research for a while so can't decide how soon to start that. Maybe after optics, maybe after astronomy for ocean trade to subsidise the economy.

Decisions.. decisions...

 

[MarkM]

I hooked up one of the fish early, and hooked up the second one after I had built the Great Library in Istanbul...and I teched faster than I generally do up through 500AD.

Yeah, my boats worked great for me (except for the period right after I discovered the GW didn't protect them). As I mentioned in my spoiler post for my game, Istanbul was my commerce AND my production powerhouse, by virtue of being able to whip like mad (giving away 4 population at a time in some cases) and then get those pop back at a rate of about 1 every other turn by working the boats along with the flood plains.

 

[Ramzes XIII]

Sorry, see ya in the WOTM08 last spoiler

 

[Amao]

@Ramzes XIII: isn't it the first spoiler? did you post on the wrong spoiler?

 

[MarkM]

This is not wrong, but I felt better to stop trading to avoid he was becoming too advanced.
He has guilds before i has Feudalism, and before i has machinery: can you imagine what can be happen if he decided i was too weak? (and i was, at that time).
As i posted above, luckily he followed the path to Economics (being first, of course). But if he would have followed the path to MT, i was out.

This is the way I felt too, I came to the realization that to win militarily I had to take on MM. At 500 AD I thought that impossible already so I figured I had to go spaceship or diplomatic (guess cultural could have been an option too but I've never tried that)

Like I said in my game summary near the start of the thread, I'm betting that people who took him out early and thus got his primo locations will do great, and those that didn't (and especially those who didn't expand aggressively to the south before he moved into the space, like me) will face some later game dilemmas as I am.

 

[Doc TK]

It's interesting to see the different timing of when people attacked MM. Originally I planned to hit him early, but the tech trading had me hold off until roughly 100BC. It took me a while to kill him with HAs and Cats, but the collat damage of Cats can weaken Long Bows (which he got soon into our war) pretty well, so it wasn't that hard to kill him off about the same time that I was getting Astro.