Would like balancing help for custom faction

[hambino]

To start, hello, CivFanatics. I'm a greenie here, I was referred here by Vyeh on Apolyton for this particular question.

I, like a million other people on the internet right now, am attempting to make a custom faction. I've been trying to make the faction fit in as well as possible with the pre-existing factions (focusing more on the first 7 than the Alien Crossfire factions), and to that end I'm trying to make it balanced with regards to the original factions.

If I can get the kinks worked out with learning how balance works with this faction, I'll be able to do my other two planned customs - the reason I'm doing them is because I thought AC would benefit from a trio of factions focusing around future societies.

Sorry, I spent too much time on the introduction.

The Sons of Terra are headed by Professor Friedrich Neumann. Here's the datalinks, blurb, and faction details straight from the .txt I've directly modified for them.

Sons of Terra, The Humanist, Terrans, M, 2, Neumann, M, -1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 
TECH, EthCalc, TECH, Psych, PENALTY, Police State, SOCIAL, --EFFIC, SOCIAL, ---POLICE, FACILITY, 2, PSI, 25, TALENT, 2, 
Future Society, Eudaimonia, GROWTH, 
Future Society, Thought Control, nil, 
Terran, Terran
May, Baxter, May's Spirit
Professor, enlightened, oblivious, free-spirited, lawless, 
Anarchic Fool
unchain our minds
to develop, understand, and free the human mind
destroying all semblence of order on this planet
destroying all semblence of order on this planet
reduce this world to some kind of anarcho-objectivistic hell-hole
poking at human brains in pickle jars
poking at human brains in pickle jars
rambling on and on about objectivist hogwash
objectivist hogwash, M1
humanocentric development, M2
psychotherapy sessions, M2
education donation, M1
developing and understanding the human mind

#BLURB
^     What is progress? Is it the data in our network nodes? Is it
the facilities made according to that data? Is it the weapons and
equipment made from these facilities? Is it the new data we glean
from use of this new equipment, readily stored once more? What
drives all of these things I have just mentioned? Yes - all signs
of progress are produced by the minds and hands of the lowly
human being. Is it so much to believe, then, that man, himself,
is progress?
^
^        -- Professor Friedrich Neumann
^           "My Love, My Struggle"

#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Friedrich Neumann}
^BACKGROUND: {European Union, Unity Psychiatric Nurse}
^AGENDA: {Humanocentric Utopia}
^TECH: {Social Psych, Ethical Calculus}
^

#DATALINKS2
^-2 EFFICIENCY {Severe bickering leads to beauraucratic hiccups}
^-3 POLICE {Extremely self-motivated citizens difficult to control}
^Free Children's Creche at every base {Human life of utmost importance}
^Free Talent for every 2 citizens {Self-improvement encouraged and enforced}
^PSI +25% {Heavy research on and training of the mind}
^Penalty: Police State {Citizens will actively resist government pressure}
^Cannot use {Thought Control}

I tried using the power formulas I found at alphacentauri.us to keep the power level to a reasonable level, but I'm not sure if I messed up at some point.

The original concept was the Unity Psych lead forming a society focused solely on the individual at expense to everything else, and the basic idea for the faction was either a sort of utopia where every citizen is a renaissance man (hences the Talent per 2 citizens) or an anarcho-objectivist hellhole (the -3 police)

I've done some testing myself in-game, and while I'm pleased with the fact that they will easily hit Golden Age before anyone else just from growth and talents alone, and I'm pleased with how quickly they're being swamped with Drone Riots if they attempt war on too large a scale, I'm worried about how much energy the faction's able to accumulate - that was the reason I put the efficiency penalty in, but it doesn't seem to be doing quite the job I was hoping it would, and I can't think of a good way to rationalize an ECON penalty in the datalinks.

I'm also incredibly unsure of whether or not I should keep the PSI bonus. It worked for the original concept, but now I'm not so sure - I'm also sure it's pushing the power level beyond the original 7, so I'm all but ready to simply remove it.

What do you guys think?

 

[vyeh]

To start, hello, CivFanatics. I'm a greenie here, I was referred here by Vyeh on Apolyton for this particular question.

Welcome to CivFanatics. As I said at Apolyton, I hope Kilkakon will join us. And you shouldn't be shy about jumping into his thread. Don't worry about reading the whole thread -- a lot of things have changed. Just ask any questions that arise and one of us can give you the updated information.

I, like a million other people on the internet right now, am attempting to make a custom faction.

One of the best things about SMAC are the factions. The factions have a distinctiveness unmatched in the rest of the Civilization series.

Sorry, I spent too much time on the introduction.

No, this has been useful. Particularly that you want to balance the faction against the originals.

The Sons of Terra are headed by Professor Friedrich Neumann. Here's the datalinks, blurb, and faction details straight from the .txt I've directly modified for them.

...

#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Friedrich Neumann}
^BACKGROUND: {European Union, Unity Psychiatric Nurse}
^AGENDA: {Humanocentric Utopia}
^TECH: {Social Psych, Ethical Calculus}
^

#DATALINKS2
^-2 EFFICIENCY {Severe bickering leads to beauraucratic hiccups}
^-3 POLICE {Extremely self-motivated citizens difficult to control}
^Free Children's Creche at every base {Human life of utmost importance}
^Free Talent for every 2 citizens {Self-improvement encouraged and enforced}
^PSI +25% {Heavy research on and training of the mind}
^Penalty: Police State {Citizens will actively resist government pressure}
^Cannot use {Thought Control}

I tried using the power formulas I found at alphacentauri.us to keep the power level to a reasonable level, but I'm not sure if I messed up at some point.

Nicely thought out. For now, I'd like to look at the Datalinks entry. First, the power formula at alphacentauri.us was done by looking for a formula that gave the same value for the original factions. Unfortunately, the social modifiers, e.g. ECONOMY, are not always linear. (There is a big difference between +1 ECONOMY and +2 ECONOMY.)

If you are below the bureaucracy limit, a free talent for every 2 citizens would mean that you don't need any drone control (once you start getting all bureaucracy drones, you won't be getting a talent for every two bureaucracy drone -- see this thread on psych).

While the free children's creche cancels out the -2 EFFICIENCY as far as energy loss over distance, it does not cancel out efficiency loss due to unbalanced SE slider allocations (e.g. 60% economy/40% research).

Once you get a lot of bases (and have to deal with bureaucracy drones), the -3 POLICE will have an effect. It will also impede a player from choosing any combination of SE that has a negative POLICE if there are combat units outside the territory.

I've done some testing myself in-game, and while I'm pleased with the fact that they will easily hit Golden Age before anyone else just from growth and talents alone, and I'm pleased with how quickly they're being swamped with Drone Riots if they attempt war on too large a scale, I'm worried about how much energy the faction's able to accumulate - that was the reason I put the efficiency penalty in, but it doesn't seem to be doing quite the job I was hoping it would, and I can't think of a good way to rationalize an ECON penalty in the datalinks.

IIRC, Golden age gives both growth and efficiency bonuses (I am pretty sure about the growth). With the efficiency bonus from the children's creche, the faction is doing well in terms of getting energy from its bases. You can rationalize an ECON penalty on the grounds that they spend money improving the mind. I believe you could also try a negative interest rate (I am not sure if a negative number would work).

I'm also incredibly unsure of whether or not I should keep the PSI bonus. It worked for the original concept, but now I'm not so sure - I'm also sure it's pushing the power level beyond the original 7, so I'm all but ready to simply remove it.

It is a huge bonus against native life. (In contrast a +1 PLANET rating only gives 12.5% bonus and only on defense.) I think it would be best to remove it.

What do you guys think?

I think it is a very good start.

 

[Kilkakon]

Hey there hambino!

Sorry I didn't notice this thread straight away, I tend to overrely on email subscriptions.

Anyway interesting ideas you have here, feel free to post more lore related stuff if you like as that always helps when choosing the right stats for a faction.

Onto what I think of your faction:

-2 EFFICIENCY {Severe bickering leads to beauraucratic hiccups}
-3 POLICE {Extremely self-motivated citizens difficult to control}
Free Children's Creche at every base {Human life of utmost importance}
Free Talent for every 2 citizens {Self-improvement encouraged and enforced}
PSI +25% {Heavy research on and training of the mind}
Penalty: Police State {Citizens will actively resist government pressure}
Cannot use {Thought Control}

A free Children's Creche at every base is a huge advantage -- almost negating the negative efficiency modifier (bar what vyeh said of course) -- but the biggest boost is a lot of easy early growth. It's not exactly the same as having a +2 GROWTH, but it means that everybody else has to spend the 50 minerals or whatever to be on parity. It is probably the most powerful facility in the game (either that or juiced-up Network Nodes). Then one has the 50% Talent populace, which also makes everything have even more growth early on, until drones appear from having too many bases (well let's face it that would be pretty quick with all this GROWTH power! ). GROWTH is one of the most powerful stats in Alpha Centuari so this faction would definitely rock very hard.

Now the penalty of -3 POLICE means that getting a higher police rating will be key to any military effort -- making Ascetic Virtues a real prerequisite to any war at all. Police State can work if one doesn't mind not having any money -- Thought Control is ruled out of course.

So where is this faction then? Although it can population boom it's going to have drone problems if it starts an epic war. Economic victory is a bit hard due to the Efficiency loss; still possible though due to extra Talents. Transcendence is definitely an option for this faction as they have no problem with defensive units at all. The biggest way this team can win though is Diplomatic. With a head start on Growth elections should be easy to grab, more so with those vote multipler projects. Combat is still not impossible though, just build military units and give them to the inevitable Pact Brother/Sister. Probe action is also very happy due to the extra money floating around in the bank account.

You are right about the Psi bonus though, that is easily removed here. The faction is still definitely tough in its strong suits, but pretty much handicapped for anything more than defensive efforts and counter attacks (until Ascetic Virtues).

Hope that helped.

 

[hambino]

Excellent. Okay, the PSI bonus is going to be removed - I agree, it's not necessary and I wasn't too happy having it anyway.

I'm also happy to hear Kilkakon's assessment of Neumann's victory options - Transcendence and Diplomatic victory are definitely the kinds of victory I had in mind with this faction, and the issues with an epic war are exactly the kind of drawback I wanted.

vyeh: I just tested a negative value for Interest and a negative value does work. I tested a -5% interest rate. Noticeable reduction in energy accumulation for the first 5 bases or so, but it really seems like there's less for me to rationalize that then with -ECON. At least with the ECON I could probably say something like "focus on personal improvement leads many to reject wealth" or something like that. So I could stick with the --EFFIC, go with a -ECON, or I could actually ignore the money-making itself and increase hurry costs to say 125%, as I can rationalize that with "workers demand to be paid more for their higher quality service" or something like that, considering the ability for Neumann to hurry fac after fac or unit after unit was what was really worrying me about it.

I'm including a .zip with the .txt, .flc, and .pcxs so you can try him out in-game if that would help. Disregarding my thoughts, are there any issues you can see that I haven't thought about, vyeh? Considering I'm less-informed about many of the higher-end strategies for the game than you guys are and have a less-sophisticated understanding of the game mechanics, I might be completely missing something that works too well for the faction, or I might be mistaken on just how severe a penalty --EFFIC for Neumann is.

On a semi-unrelated note: if you know anybody that has the ability to make a portrait that fits the original 14 more closely than what I've got currently, I'd appreciate being referred to him/her, lol - and disregard the Size 1 land base graphic, that's currently a placeholder/shape concept.

Kilkakon: This is what I have for his background right now, as bullet-points, if you're interested in reading.

• Born in Germany under a democratic government
• Large family, musical hobbyist
• Initial schooling in traditional medicine with some interest in neurobiology
• Activist - gets in trouble with authorities while still in college due to a protest against recent laws impairing citizens' rights against illegal seizure and detainment
• Goes on to a higher education with more emphasis on neurosciences and psychology - involved in several experiments that "opened his eyes" to just how vast and mysterious the human mind is
• Begins a career as a child psychologist with hopes of better understanding the building blocks of the modern human mind
• Germany's leader dies under mysterious circumstances shortly after the EU/UN become involved in a large conflict and a military junta comes into power
• Neumann among thousands of others conscripted into the military
• He spends time overseas using his knowledge to help and work with civilians in ravaged/threatened communities
• Comes home after several campaigns to find the government actively infringing on previously-established civil rights, accompanies by loads of civil unrest and at least a new riot a day
• Becomes part of an underground movement, head speaker for personal freedoms
• Is awarded the nobel peace prize while in an emergency room following an attempted assassination
• Is given political asylum and continued medical care in Free Scotland and is invited to be part of the U.N.S. Unity's crew - shortly after his home country becomes yet another hot spot for the U.N.'s Peacekeeping forces to contain following mass riots and the separation of no less than 3 splinter states from the country
• Worked as a medical nurse and psych-therapist for the crew - these connects being what allowed him to found his faction prior to Planetfall

Basic philosophy is that a man is his own nation, and not only should he be allowed the freedom to live as he chooses and pursue his own goals, but he should also be expected to protect his own freedoms and support himself. "Do what thou wilt" sort of deal. Neumann himself calls himself "Professor" as his primary goal is to educate and encourage his followers in their pursuit of personal enlightenment, making him a more altruistic adherent to his philosophy. It's possible it's just a knee-jerk reaction to seeing his home country torn apart over a war over personal freedoms.

EDIT:

Something I found interesting - in almost every game I've played as Neumann, my most common allies were Morgan and Santiago. I'd be at Seething with Zakharov, Yang, Dierdre, but the moment I find Morgan he's all the way up at Magnanimous, and Santiago is usually ambivalent or solicitous. The fact that these two factions are well-known for their desire for freedom (economic freedom and the freedom to bear arms and protect themselves, respectively) makes this noteworthy. Zakharov is extremely erratic. Yang is almost always hateful toward Neumann, and Dierdre seems to only like Neumann before he starts having a population bigger than her. Considering I actually haven't had a chance to run into Miriam before someone eliminates her, I don't have any experience with how the Believers view the Terrans. I'd imagine not very highly.

 

[Kilkakon]

Here's what I can see for now (haven't given it a playthrough but more looking at your text/graphics). In bullet points, because bullet points can be good too.

• Be aware that some of the city names seem to be the same as the Gaians.
• All of your diplomacy replies have an extra dud line at the bottom that you probably want to remove. The alien peace treaty one is cut off.
• I encourage you to try and make those diplomacy areas (truce/treaty etc.) as unique as you can, rather than being based off Gaian/Hive. It's the area you have the most control over so use it.
• Nice logo! I would suggest taking the square one you have for the report logo and making your diplomacy/council logos have the same aspect ratio, having transparency to the left and right is fine. As for asylum2/3, I have a template for those if you need it. It's a bit dodgy but it works.
• City graphics can be hard to find (with my mod I'm aiming for more ancient stuff though so I can't help you there) but good luck with making your own!
• Watch that you don't clash your faction colours with the Cyborgs.
• Although I am seemingly good at making pictures I don't think that mine would match with the original SMAC peoples that well. I really just colour cute things in.

Hah you got your edit in without me noticing. Sneaky! And you used bullet points too! It's very interesting stuff there hey, and it helps if you ever need to change anything. For example, you could reference freedom and the need for civil rights etc. in the peace treaty request.

 

[hambino]

My bad about the base names, I'm in the process of replacing those as I think of good names.

I thought I fixed those lines - I'll fix those up. I don't know if those came from my attempts to fix my base names with my copy of the game or not through ACEditor and Facedit. I've fixed them. I'll worry about the creative aspects when I'm certain the mechanics are properly set.

And I guess the color issue shows just how much I like the new factions lol. I'd appreciate the templates, too, alphacentauri.us's links for their templates is broken. I'm sorry, majority of my work's been put into the .txt, so my graphics are really spotty at the moment - the logo, in particular, has transparency issues in-game with pink dots in the border that I've yet to correct. The city graphics are being made from the ground up, I have some photos of contemporary and concept German architecture to work with. The only graphics thing I'm really satisfied with is the .flc, and even then I still need to go back into the base images and add scanlines.

 

[hambino]

Here, fixed those extra lines and removed the Gaian placeholders. Updated .txt, sorry for the doublepost.

 

[Kilkakon]

I thought I fixed those lines - I'll fix those up. I don't know if those came from my attempts to fix my base names with my copy of the game or not through ACEditor and Facedit. I've fixed them. I'll worry about the creative aspects when I'm certain the mechanics are properly set.

That's fine. Every time I have made a faction I have gone about it a different way... whatever works for you is fine!

And I guess the color issue shows just how much I like the new factions lol. I'd appreciate the templates, too, alphacentauri.us's links for their templates is broken. I'm sorry, majority of my work's been put into the .txt, so my graphics are really spotty at the moment - the logo, in particular, has transparency issues in-game with pink dots in the border that I've yet to correct. The city graphics are being made from the ground up, I have some photos of contemporary and concept German architecture to work with.

I change the palette of my pcx files to remove colours that aren't what they seem (I normally make my shadow colour pink for instance). For the colour scheme, you could try a medium browny colour, or just experiment more.

Look forward to seeing what you can do with the city.

The only graphics thing I'm really satisfied with is the .flc, and even then I still need to go back into the base images and add scanlines.

There were some ugly yellow spots when I tried it, but the images are really good indeed. May I ask how you made the flc? I don't have the ability to make them myself and my factions from Lost Eden all share the same one at the moment.

Here, fixed those extra lines and removed the Gaian placeholders. Updated .txt, sorry for the doublepost.

Good.

 

[vyeh]

I just tested a negative value for Interest and a negative value does work. I tested a -5% interest rate. Noticeable reduction in energy accumulation for the first 5 bases or so, but it really seems like there's less for me to rationalize that then with -ECON. At least with the ECON I could probably say something like "focus on personal improvement leads many to reject wealth" or something like that.

How about this for a rationalization: {People demand a portion of the budgetary surplus go for programs that improve the mind.}

So I could stick with the --EFFIC, go with a -ECON, or I could actually ignore the money-making itself and increase hurry costs to say 125%, as I can rationalize that with "workers demand to be paid more for their higher quality service" or something like that, considering the ability for Neumann to hurry fac after fac or unit after unit was what was really worrying me about it.

If it is the hurry cost, that makes sense. Note that economic victory might be too easy.

Disregarding my thoughts, are there any issues you can see that I haven't thought about, vyeh? Considering I'm less-informed about many of the higher-end strategies for the game than you guys are and have a less-sophisticated understanding of the game mechanics, I might be completely missing something that works too well for the faction, or I might be mistaken on just how severe a penalty --EFFIC for Neumann is.

Eudamonia comes very late in the game. If their preference is a future society, they will be non-hostile toward anyone that has chosen that future society or anyone who has chosen the default selection. In practice, it means that if you are using them as an AI faction, they will be friendly to everyone and that tends to make them more powerful.

On a semi-unrelated note: if you know anybody that has the ability to make a portrait that fits the original 14 more closely than what I've got currently, I'd appreciate being referred to him/her, lol - and disregard the Size 1 land base graphic, that's currently a placeholder/shape concept.

Buster's Uncle at WePlayCiv certainly has the ability and willingness to help you. I'd suggest you register at WePlayCiv and then attach your current portrait in his [Graphics] thread.

Something I found interesting - in almost every game I've played as Neumann, my most common allies were Morgan and Santiago. I'd be at Seething with Zakharov, Yang, Dierdre, but the moment I find Morgan he's all the way up at Magnanimous, and Santiago is usually ambivalent or solicitous. The fact that these two factions are well-known for their desire for freedom (economic freedom and the freedom to bear arms and protect themselves, respectively) makes this noteworthy. Zakharov is extremely erratic. Yang is almost always hateful toward Neumann, and Dierdre seems to only like Neumann before he starts having a population bigger than her. Considering I actually haven't had a chance to run into Miriam before someone eliminates her, I don't have any experience with how the Believers view the Terrans. I'd imagine not very highly.

The general rule is that a faction will like you if you choose the social engineering choice that is part of their agenda or you choose the default (the choice that requires no tech prerequisite) for that line in the Social Engineering table.

Edit: Three green lights! Unfortunately, it is late for me, so I have to go.

May I ask how you made the flc? I don't have the ability to make them myself and my factions from Lost Eden all share the same one at the moment.

See How-to guide: making flc biographical animations for faction mods.

 

[hambino]

There were some ugly yellow spots when I tried it, but the images are really good indeed. May I ask how you made the flc? I don't have the ability to make them myself and my factions from Lost Eden all share the same one at the moment.

Oh god, I knew I forgot about an issue with that, lol.

I basically followed the guide in this thread here:

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2996

A combination of Photoshop + Animation Shop let me put together the .flc in a fairly easy (if time-consuming) manner.

How about this for a rationalization: {People demand a portion of the budgetary surplus go for programs that improve the mind.}

Yeah, I can work with that.

If it is the hurry cost, that makes sense. Note that economic victory might be too easy.

Bah, I don't want that. I'd still need to piggyback the hurry cost increase with an EFFIC/ECON/Interest penalty then, ay? I'll try it with an ECON penalty and see how that works out.

Eudamonia comes very late in the game. If their preference is a future society, they will be non-hostile toward anyone that has chosen that future society or anyone who has chosen the default selection. In practice, it means that if you are using them as an AI faction, they will be friendly to everyone and that tends to make them more powerful.

So, then, it's better if I only have the phobia as a future society and make the preference something that can be picked up earlier in the game? Or vice versa? Okay, I could change Eudaimonia to Democracy - he starts with EthCalc anyway, and it has a GROWTH bonus too.

Buster's Uncle at WePlayCiv certainly has the ability and willingness to help you. I'd suggest you register at WePlayCiv and then attach your current portrait in his [Graphics] thread.

Oh, cool, thanks!

The general rule is that a faction will like you if you choose the social engineering choice that is part of their agenda or you choose the default (the choice that requires no tech prerequisite) for that line in the Social Engineering table.

Forgot about that. I guess that just spoke more to my play style for the testing then, lol.

Edit: Three green lights! Unfortunately, it is late for me, so I have to go..

I'm gonna have to get going soon, too - laptop power running low and I'm not interested in getting "checked up on" by campus police again. Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

 

[Kilkakon]

Oh god, I knew I forgot about an issue with that, lol.

I basically followed the guide in this thread here:

http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2996

A combination of Photoshop + Animation Shop let me put together the .flc in a fairly easy (if time-consuming) manner.

Thanks both of you (you both linked the same page). Unfortunately I don't have Jasc programs (I use PhotoImpact 6 for my image editting). I won't worry about it for now.

So, then, it's better if I only have the phobia as a future society and make the preference something that can be picked up earlier in the game? Or vice versa? Okay, I could change Eudaimonia to Democracy - he starts with EthCalc anyway, and it has a GROWTH bonus too.

Yet more GROWTH to supercharge the faction. It's up to you how you want the AI to react: having a Polictical agenda means that it will hate Police State/Fundamentalists.

I'm gonna have to get going soon, too - laptop power running low and I'm not interested in getting "checked up on" by campus police again. Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

Good luck dodging security! And good night vyeh (I guess you live In America or something. )

 

[hambino]

Yet more GROWTH to supercharge the faction. It's up to you how you want the AI to react: having a Polictical agenda means that it will hate Police State/Fundamentalists. ... (I guess you live In America or something. )

Yeah, put that way, it would make total sense. Okay.

And yeah, you got me. Anyway, thanks for the input, too, Kilkakon, I'll drop by this thread again tomorrow night and see if anything else has been/needs to be said.

 

[Kilkakon]

I'm sorry I forgot about the templates until now. I got them from the Network Node, just to credit the source. Here you are.

 

[vyeh]

Bah, I don't want that. I'd still need to piggyback the hurry cost increase with an EFFIC/ECON/Interest penalty then, ay? I'll try it with an ECON penalty and see how that works out.

They already have a -2 EFFICIENCY. It does suggest that a negative interest might help (they would still receive income and could spend it, but it would be harder accumulating energy credits). So hurry cost would affect current expenses and negative interest would impede accumulation.

So, then, it's better if I only have the phobia as a future society and make the preference something that can be picked up earlier in the game? Or vice versa? Okay, I could change Eudaimonia to Democracy - he starts with EthCalc anyway, and it has a GROWTH bonus too.

The whole idea was to have factions centered around future societies. Once these factions are completed, maybe you can design a scenario where players receive a lot of advance techs.

Oh, cool, thanks!

You're welcome. He is very friendly to newcomers.

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

You're welcome.

And good night vyeh (I guess you live In America or something. )

Yes.

I'll drop by this thread again tomorrow night and see if anything else has been/needs to be said.

Have you seen the size of Kilkakon's thread? There will be a lot to be said.

I'm sorry I forgot about the templates until now. I got them from the Network Node, just to credit the source. Here you are.

The Network Node factions have been uploaded here. The Network Node site is no longer working. You don't need to register to download.

 

[hambino]

They already have a -2 EFFICIENCY. It does suggest that a negative interest might help (they would still receive income and could spend it, but it would be harder accumulating energy credits). So hurry cost would affect current expenses and negative interest would impede accumulation.

Well, I meant either keeping the --EFFIC with the -5% Interest or switching the --EFFIC for a different penalty. I tried a -ECONOMY with the -5% Interest (removing the --EFFIC) and it actually seems to work exceedingly well, though I suppose it loses some of the flavor having --EFFIC contributed. The price you pay to keep a faction from cornering the global energy market the moment that ability becomes available, eh?

Here's the updated datalinks;

#DATALINKS2
^5% of all energy earnings allocated towards psych-related programs
^-1 ECONOMY {Self-interest-fueld bickering breaks many deals}
^-3 POLICE {Extremely self-motivated citizens difficult to control}
^Free Children's Creche at every base {Human life of utmost importance}
^Free Talent for every 2 citizens {Self-improvement encouraged and enforced}
^Penalty: Police State {Citizens will actively resist government pressure}
^Cannot use {Thought Control}
^

The whole idea was to have factions centered around future societies. Once these factions are completed, maybe you can design a scenario where players receive a lot of advance techs.

Well, yeah, but I don't want to make their focus end up being at cost to their overall balance as AI factions before those societies become present. As my understanding of how the AI and Social Engineering works is, currently, it seems that if I gave Neumann's governor an emphasis on GROWTH, he'll choose all GROWTH-bonus soceng choices anyway, meaning the AI will almost always be Democracy/Planned/Eudaimonia, as those are the only GROWTH-oriented social choices, right? So, I could instead opt to give him something like Knowledge - while that's not growth-oriented, it's certainly an ideal that Neuman, himself, would support, and fills in the last gap for the governor to choose when he's an AI leader.

In the end, he's still happy with Eudaimonia and still angry about Thought Control, and therefore still mortal enemies of BIGBRO.txt, so I think I'd still have succeeded.

Speaking of which, I figured since I've got a couple of people helping me out, I've started looking at the .txts for my other two future society facs, which are codename BIGBRO and NETICS. If you guys don't mind, when I have something solid I'll post them in this thread to reduce on Infinite Post Sprawl in this forum.

The basic concepts for the other two factions:

BIGBRO: New Victoria, lead by Guardian Julia Stewart (oh god help me on a title for this woman). Her main thing is that she feels the tragedy with the Unity occurred because people had too much information about how the whole ship functioned and had too much freedom during the voyage. Basically, that's why Earth ended, too, according to her. Basic thoughts are that she'll have a higher police rating, efficiency bonus, and a lower research rating and growth rating, but I'm still working on finding out just what bonuses are best for her particular flavor. Where Neumann can be considered a combination of Lal and Zakharov, I'm looking at Bigbro being a combination of Yang and either Santiago or Miriam. I'm debating Doctrine: Loyalty + Planetary Networks, but in all honesty I don't know a good starting tech for this faction that doesn't already step on Yang's toes. I'm not sure if I even want to give her a starting tech - because I think giving a free Non-Lethal Methods skill with prerequisite and free Punishment Sphere would more than make up for not giving her starting tech.

NETICS: Don't have much thought up yet. Basically, I figured we needed an Indian leader, which allows me to create a faction based around the concept of a caste system. This means that I already have what I hope is an interesting disadvantage for them, to offset their planned interest in Industry and Support - For every 5 citizens, there is an extra drone. Their future society's cybernetic, of course.

 

[Kilkakon]

Well, I meant either keeping the --EFFIC with the -5% Interest or switching the --EFFIC for a different penalty. I tried a -ECONOMY with the -5% Interest (removing the --EFFIC) and it actually seems to work exceedingly well, though I suppose it loses some of the flavor having --EFFIC contributed. The price you pay to keep a faction from cornering the global energy market the moment that ability becomes available, eh?

Yep.

Here's the updated datalinks;

#DATALINKS2
^5% of all energy earnings allocated towards psych-related programs
^-1 ECONOMY {Self-interest-fueld bickering breaks many deals}
^-3 POLICE {Extremely self-motivated citizens difficult to control}
^Free Children's Creche at every base {Human life of utmost importance}
^Free Talent for every 2 citizens {Self-improvement encouraged and enforced}
^Penalty: Police State {Citizens will actively resist government pressure}
^Cannot use {Thought Control}
^

Looks very good there hambino. -1 Economy isn't very punishing at all (it's just -1 energy at HQ) but would reduce the effectiveness of Wealth/Free Market/etc. The -5% interest is the big one that will help out. Is it still possible to win via Economic?

Well, yeah, but I don't want to make their focus end up being at cost to their overall balance as AI factions before those societies become present. As my understanding of how the AI and Social Engineering works is, currently, it seems that if I gave Neumann's governor an emphasis on GROWTH, he'll choose all GROWTH-bonus soceng choices anyway, meaning the AI will almost always be Democracy/Planned/Eudaimonia, as those are the only GROWTH-oriented social choices, right? So, I could instead opt to give him something like Knowledge - while that's not growth-oriented, it's certainly an ideal that Neuman, himself, would support, and fills in the last gap for the governor to choose when he's an AI leader.

Correct. He will also hate Power and Wealth people if you go for that route.

In the end, he's still happy with Eudaimonia and still angry about Thought Control, and therefore still mortal enemies of BIGBRO.txt, so I think I'd still have succeeded.

Sure, especially if you make BIGBRO's agenda Thought Control.

Speaking of which, I figured since I've got a couple of people helping me out, I've started looking at the .txts for my other two future society facs, which are codename BIGBRO and NETICS. If you guys don't mind, when I have something solid I'll post them in this thread to reduce on Infinite Post Sprawl in this forum.

Sure I don't mind, you are right in saying it's best to wait until you have a stat lineup sorted though. I like the term though.

The basic concepts for the other two factions:

BIGBRO: New Victoria, lead by Guardian Julia Stewart (oh god help me on a title for this woman). Her main thing is that she feels the tragedy with the Unity occurred because people had too much information about how the whole ship functioned and had too much freedom during the voyage. Basically, that's why Earth ended, too, according to her. Basic thoughts are that she'll have a higher police rating, efficiency bonus, and a lower research rating and growth rating, but I'm still working on finding out just what bonuses are best for her particular flavor. Where Neumann can be considered a combination of Lal and Zakharov, I'm looking at Bigbro being a combination of Yang and either Santiago or Miriam. I'm debating Doctrine: Loyalty + Planetary Networks, but in all honesty I don't know a good starting tech for this faction that doesn't already step on Yang's toes. I'm not sure if I even want to give her a starting tech - because I think giving a free Non-Lethal Methods skill with prerequisite and free Punishment Sphere would more than make up for not giving her starting tech.

Would Queen be too much for a title? Monarch? If you are stuck for a starting tech, just let the player choose 1. Remember that a free Punishment Sphere is an instant -50% research for the whole faction, so you would probably want to give a research bonus to soften the blow somewhat or steal tech when capturing a base so she can be aggressive instead.

NETICS: Don't have much thought up yet. Basically, I figured we needed an Indian leader, which allows me to create a faction based around the concept of a caste system. This means that I already have what I hope is an interesting disadvantage for them, to offset their planned interest in Industry and Support - For every 5 citizens, there is an extra drone. Their future society's cybernetic, of course.

Okay, look forward to seeing it more fleshed out.

 

[hambino]

Looks very good there hambino. -1 Economy isn't very punishing at all (it's just -1 energy at HQ) but would reduce the effectiveness of Wealth/Free Market/etc. The -5% interest is the big one that will help out. Is it still possible to win via Economic?

If Morgan is out of the game, yeah, lol.

Correct. He will also hate Power and Wealth people if you go for that route.

Exactly. This also means he will almost always be friendly towards Lal and Zakharov, but will always be at odds with Yang, Miriam, Santiago, Deirdre, and Morgan. But having a friendship with a tech-head isn't so bad.

Sure, especially if you make BIGBRO's agenda Thought Control.

That's the plan!

Would Queen be too much for a title? Monarch?

Unfortunately, yes. It would undermine her tactic of appearing as a "guardian" rather than a "ruler". Even though her tagline is "The Totalitarian" she's not going to out-and-out admit it. It's what's allowing me to make her unique sentences so easily.

If you are stuck for a starting tech, just let the player choose 1.

Would MilAlg be too far along in the tech tree for a reasonable starting tech? Because looking at it, the ability to give units 2 squares extra sensor depth totally fits with her quasi-paranoid views on "security". The fact that these units would eventually have free police powers would definitely make it even more fitting. Or what about Intellectual Integrity, so she has police powered units from the start?

Remember that a free Punishment Sphere is an instant -50% research for the whole faction, so you would probably want to give a research bonus to soften the blow somewhat or steal tech when capturing a base so she can be aggressive instead.

Maybe the tech-stealing could work. She operates under a veil of non-information, which is why I originally figured she'd have a research penalty - but you're right, the killing off of 50% research is already more than enough of a research penalty. The price for free drone management, I suppose.

I'm working with a tentative ++POLICE and ++EFFIC, with a -GROWTH, plus the free Police power and free Punishment Spheres. She has a penalty on Knowledge and cannot use Democracy. To balance out her lack of research, I could make it so that her people could pump out units faster - I mean, the idea is that her people are just as pliable as Yang's, if not as numerous.

Okay, look forward to seeing it more fleshed out.

Believe me, me too.

 

[Kilkakon]

If Morgan is out of the game, yeah, lol.

Alright then good. We don't want to overcompensate.

Exactly. This also means he will almost always be friendly towards Lal and Zakharov, but will always be at odds with Yang, Miriam, Santiago, Deirdre, and Morgan. But having a friendship with a tech-head isn't so bad.

Okay then. Let's just hope that there aren't too many wars -- God knows that his guy would struggle with them.

Unfortunately, yes. It would undermine her tactic of appearing as a "guardian" rather than a "ruler". Even though her tagline is "The Totalitarian" she's not going to out-and-out admit it. It's what's allowing me to make her unique sentences so easily.

Okay. Well there's Protector, Overseer, Watcher, Warden, Visionary and Guide, off the top of my head.

Would MilAlg be too far along in the tech tree for a reasonable starting tech? Because looking at it, the ability to give units 2 squares extra sensor depth totally fits with her quasi-paranoid views on "security". The fact that these units would eventually have free police powers would definitely make it even more fitting. Or what about Intellectual Integrity, so she has police powered units from the start?

Well the normal factions tend to only have techs 1 or 2 into the tree, so I would suggest working within that range.

Maybe the tech-stealing could work. She operates under a veil of non-information, which is why I originally figured she'd have a research penalty - but you're right, the killing off of 50% research is already more than enough of a research penalty. The price for free drone management, I suppose.

Sure.

I'm working with a tentative ++POLICE and ++EFFIC, with a -GROWTH, plus the free Police power and free Punishment Spheres. She has a penalty on Knowledge and cannot use Democracy. To balance out her lack of research, I could make it so that her people could pump out units faster - I mean, the idea is that her people are just as pliable as Yang's, if not as numerous.

If all bases have Punishment Spheres, the ++POLICE and free Police bonuses really don't mean a lot. An industry bonus is good as the team would need to employ human wave tactics in most battles or use Probe Teams.

 

[hambino]

Okay then. Let's just hope that there aren't too many wars -- God knows that his guy would struggle with them.

In human hands, at least, he can hold his own well enough. In the recent test game I did for the -ECONOMY/-5% Interest rate, Miriam was being annoying as usual and was starting wars/calling for truce every five turns - he wound up practically decimating her forces and nearby bases with a minimum of drone activity before I overextended. He should be fine.

Okay. Well there's Protector, Overseer, Watcher, Warden, Visionary and Guide, off the top of my head.

Warden's good - has the prison connotation that plays nicely off of my ideas for her. Thanks!

Well the normal factions tend to only have techs 1 or 2 into the tree, so I would suggest working within that range.

Fair enough: Optical Computers is too far, too, then, right? I'll go with DocLoy so she has a jump-start to Intellectual Integrity.

If all bases have Punishment Spheres, the ++POLICE and free Police bonuses really don't mean a lot.

Man, this is why I rely on other people to help with my thinking. Ouch. I want her to be super heavy-handed with police units - I'm getting rid of the spheres then.

An industry bonus is good as the team would need to employ human wave tactics in most battles or use Probe Teams.

Hmm... or maybe support, so that once the units are out they don't need to really worry about their upkeep. It would fit with the idea that while she's making "security" preparations it could just be a front for eventual conquest.

 

[StrikerX22]

Hey. I wouldn't be too afraid of giving a bit higher tech. I'd be more interested in whether it's overpowered by itself, or if it can combine with a much lower tech to get something else overpowered (or simply too early).

I also like "Overseer," as it sounds less oppressive, as she won't admit it. Think about people like "Chairman" Mao/Yang and such... They're always in their own little world.

Adv Mil Alg is pretty potent... I'd say it fits for punish sph/radar/power, but it's a big step to fusion (to pre-sent alg). Also, I'm rusty with faction bonuses... but can't you delete them sometimes? [edit: actually, opt comp goes to adv mil alg AND supercond, so really all you'd be gaining on the way to fusion is adv alg and not needing adapt doc/doc flex, latter of which i figure you get by then anyways.]

There's FREEFAC and the old FACILITY... I'm not sure, but I think FACILITY might give you the building without the tech needed. I think those can't be deleted, like Yang's perimeter defenses. That said, I've taken caretaker bases with FACILITY 3 and then found brightly written recycling tanks, as if they had built it despite having it and could be deleted. I'd have to look into it.

I'd also like to point out that the Drones already go for Eudaimonia. Don't let that stop you, but yeah.