[NFP] Would you take Desert Folklore? Mali/Immortal

[IsabelBraganca]

Game Settings

Civ: Mali
Level: Immortal
Map: Lakes
Map Size: Standard
Game Speed: Epic
City States: Max
Secret Societies Mode ON
Shufle Mode ON
Temperature: hot
Rainfall: dry
Start: Balanced
Victory: Science

The start file is attached. I am playing the same game multiple times trying to improve my gameplay. This is the second run.

Turn 1 - I moved de warrior

Spoiler :

As you can see, no desert tiles around my settler. I decided not to settle in place, I went towards the desert flood plains.

Start

• IsabelBraganca
• Sep 14, 2020

First Turn - Warrior was moved

Turn 12

Spoiler :

Time to choose the Pantheon: Desert Folclore or Religious Settlements?

Turn12

• IsabelBraganca
• Sep 14, 2020

I can choose any Pantheon - Desert Folclore or Free Settler?

Turn 100

Spoiler :

I took Religious Settlements. My first run with Desert Folclore didn't work very well. My capital had low production and the gold was not enough to buy the stuff. The population grows really fast. Next time I will try settle in place and make the desert city my second city. I could not get a golden age in the Ancient Era. I missed by 3 points. I nearly circumvented the map in time....A classical golden age was possible.

I am dealing with barbarians, almost lost one city. One settlement spammed near me and I have to I had to levy the military of the closest city state. I had to deal with three archers, two warriors. I sold my luxuries to get the cash. When I was finishing the first one, a second one spammed at my door step.

Turn100

• IsabelBraganca
• Sep 14, 2020

3 cities - Gold increasing

 

[_hero_]

For Desert Folklore to be worth it a few things must happen. First, you must found religion and get work ethic. Second, you must get a classical era golden age allowing you to turn the extra faith into a massive Settle/Worker Spam. This is not an easy task on Immortal difficulty as Mali, likely requiring you to buy your Prophet with faith.

Also, Work Ethic, while helping offset Mali's production malus is highly inefficient as the Mali.

Religious Settlements is by far the "safer" route. Desert Folklore has the higher upside but is far riskier.

 

[lotrmith]

Should have moved to the coffee T1, then settle T2 on the desert next to the coffee. Work that hill forest, grow to the forest deer. Plenty of production. Build a scout then settler. Switch to holy site as soon as you finish rushing Astrology. Mali has no production penalty to districts or projects, so once you finish your holy site you can spam prayers to finish a prophet and lock in Work Ethic. Win.

 

[monikernemo]

For Desert Folklore to be worth it a few things must happen. First, you must found religion and get work ethic. Second, you must get a classical era golden age allowing you to turn the extra faith into a massive Settle/Worker Spam. This is not an easy task on Immortal difficulty as Mali, likely requiring you to buy your Prophet with faith.

Also, Work Ethic, while helping offset Mali's production malus is highly inefficient as the Mali.

Religious Settlements is by far the "safer" route. Desert Folklore has the higher upside but is far riskier.

I think desert folklore/work ethics has merits in this game because the tiles are relatively flat, so he can't leverage on mines for latent production nor gold. Desert folklore without Work ethic is possible too. I think Jesuit Education works well.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Religious settlement of course. You need to build up UD and campuses first so actually not many holy sites for you to build.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I'd take Desert Folklore, because what's otherwise even the point of playing Mali which is heavily biased towards religion and deserts if you aren't gonna take Desert Folklore that synergizes those two?
If you do take Religious Settlements, you are basically somewhat of a vanilla civ with worse production and biased towards a bad landscape start - not attractive at all for the long term.
Desert Folklore is what powers up Mali (and makes Mali, Mali), even if it's rather weak in the early game compared to the settler.

As some other poster commented above, the standard settler into HS for both cities (and if necessary prayers) will get you the religion nearly assured, at which point Work Ethic (which I haven't seen the AI take, ever) will help you get back on track.
Yes production is weaker with Mali, but the bonus production is still worth it.
And no, you don't necessarily need the first golden age, even though it helps tremendously.

That said, I know where you're coming from since you're asking the question.
Mali is perhaps very fun to play once you get the ball rolling, but in the early game it's like playing on a higher difficulty because of how extremely limited they are.
I'd still stick it out though, and if you lose the occasional game (picking Desert Folklore), just start a new one and refine your early strategy and build order to make it work.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

As for the initial start, I'd settle on the coffee for the extra culture and ability to sell the luxury to the AI.
That also settles you next to a desert tile, which grants you +1 faith and +1 food, which helps you grow and get that pantheon without having to slot God King (you can slot +1 prod instead, which helps offset the early reduced prod towards your settler) - and with culture from settling on Coffee, you will reach the Chiefdom civic for +1 prod a lot earlier.
It also settles you at fresh water, and you can work the deer tile which looks rather solid as your first tile to work.
If you do sell the luxury, use it for an early builder to chop out (if necessary) the settler or Holy Site, depending on the timings in your game.

Id' generally avoid settling your capital on the flood plains, because while you'll get a lot of faith and food from it, you're getting more faith and food than you really need in the early game.
What you need early on is production, which you're getting from the deer tile and indirectly from the coffee tile (giving you +1 prod card earlier, and allowing you to buy a builder earlier).
It's also closer to other high production tiles.
Let your settled cities be the desert cities that grow to high pop and give faith, not the first one.
Ask yourself this question - what does, say, 5 pop and 70 faith (but 0 prod) help you achieve early on, when what you really want to do is train the first settler and build a holy site?

Edit: I'd actually say that your turn 1 starting location was very good, since you can settle on that coffee and have a deer tile to work from the start while being adjacent to a desert tile.
That's a pretty optimal starting condition considering you're Mali.

 

[lotrmith]

What victory condition are you pursuing?

 

[IsabelBraganca]

What victory condition are you pursuing?

Science Victory

 

[IsabelBraganca]

A - Round 100 of the game I originally posted
Civics Tree
Pantheon: Religious Settlement

Spoiler :

Number Techs Researched

Spoiler :

B - Round 100 settling on Coffee
Pantheon: Lady of the Reeds and Marshes (+2 production Marsh, Oasis and Desert Floodplains)
Obs: Desert Folklore was not available
Civics Tree

Spoiler :

Number Techs Researched

Spoiler :

On the run B, I got my third city out later but I was first to found a religion. The Desert Folklore Pantheon was not available this time, however the pantheon I selected will make any city by desert flood plains highly productive. My cities were more well prepared this time. I built walls on them, so the barbarian hordes that attacked me were much less effective. I got a Classical Golden Age and I picked Monumentality. The next age should be a golden age too.

Stats
A - Science +10,5 Culture +11,8 Faith +12. Gold +28
B - Science +12,6 Culture +14,1 Faith +14,4 Gold +49,9

 

[Deadly Dog]

The key to Mali, I find, is whatever route you take to getting high production in desert cities is to not use that to try to overpower the production malus. You should still be(mostly) buying units and buildings, and have production geared towards districts, wonders, and projects. Getting Desert folklore/Work Ethic and setting up 3 +8 HS in a cluster around the GP and Segubas in between...I can say from experience it's fantastic, and permanently slotting Scripture did not feel like much of a sacrifice to ensure my favourite GP's and wonders.

 

[lotrmith]

Hope this helps. T102 (missed saving at T100, this is the save of my 4th city plop)

Settled as I advised: One tile left of the coffee. This gave capital 3food/3faith, securing Desert Folklore. I achieved Classical Monumentality and am spitting out settlers with Ancestral Hall and Pyramids. Build order was as advised: Scout > Settler > Holy Site > Prayers. Fast Religion to get Work Ethic going for the production boost is key.

Stats:
19.3 Science, 23.3 Culture (suzerain of Kumasi via Amani, the trade routes to city states count as international routes for mali's gold bonus while providing solid culture via Kumasi's suzerain bonus), 46 faith, 78.2 gold. My effective gold per turn is far higher, as I can sell 3 diplomatic favor per turn to Greece at 13-14 gold per, 2 iron per turn to Persia at 5-10 gold per, and 2 horses per turn to Colombia at 5 gold per. One copy of each luxury is being sold to Aztec for lots of gold and good relations.

I chose Owls for the extra envoys via trade routes but more practically for the special Bank to provide crazy culture in the Medieval. My next step in expanding off the desert tiles would be to put up campuses to match my exploding culture, but I think I'll call it quits for now.

As pictured, yes, I allowed Barbs to run on Niani deliberately (barbs cannot capture your capital). I have just begun to clean them up. They only pillaged one tile.