Writing comes before Alphabet in Civ4.

[Gangzta Wigga]

In case you missed my post above, it can be interpreted both ways.

I saw it, but everyone else seems to be following Sid's updated teachings as if it's indisputable law. And you should always give in to peer pressure, so I agree with them. You can't argue with Sid. Four years ago alphabet correctly came before writing, but today that has changed. Because Sid changed it.

 

[EvilGuy]

Well, both make sense in their own way. When you have alphabet predating writing, it still is sorta true in that writing isn't as effective for a civilization until you get a uniform alphabet that can be read by everybody, instead of just locals. When you have writing predating the alphabet, people began writing in pictographs before alphabets were ever made.

Incorrect. The Alphabet is a more advanced system. Humans needed to witness the impracticalities of "symbol" writing first hand before elaborating a more flexible and simple way to write.

Not to say the alphabet is the ONLY thing that works, many cultures have kept writings based on symbols, it's just that using an alphabet system is much easier to learn, for children and for foreigners learning a new language.

 

[King Jason]

I saw it, but everyone else seems to be following Sid's updated teachings as if it's indisputable law. And you should always give in to peer pressure, so I agree with them. You can't argue with Sid. Four years ago alphabet correctly came before writing, but today that has changed. Because Sid changed it.

If Sid ran for president, I'd vote for him.

 

[s3d]

The minoan culture centered in anceint Crete and the Eygptian culture used symbols to represent whole syllables and words, long before the Greeks came up with their alphabet.

Actually Greeks took their alphabet from phoenekians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
though Greeks were first who develop "true" alphabet - with vowels.

 

[EvilGuy]

Actually Greeks took their alphabet from phoenekians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
though Greeks were first who develop "true" alphabet - with vowels.

Yep. Nomads.

Phoenicia was an ancient civilization in the north of ancient Canaan, with its heartland along the coastal plain of what is now Lebanon and Syria, between the Lebanon Mountains and the Mediterranean Sea. Phoenician civilization was an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread right across the Mediterranean during the first millennium BC.

 

[kryszcztov]

I saw it, but everyone else seems to be following Sid's updated teachings as if it's indisputable law.

Not me. This "Alphabet -> Writing" issue has bugged me for years now, and I'm glad it is gone at last. Writing was used some 20 centuries before the first Alphabet was set up and spread (Phoenicians, as far as we know). That's about as long as the time passed since Jesus Christ.

And you should always give in to peer pressure, so I agree with them. You can't argue with Sid. Four years ago alphabet correctly came before writing, but today that has changed. Because Sid changed it.

Sid eventually listened to a few history buffs... or browsed the Internet for 10 minutes maybe. I started to play the game when I was 13, but I never took everything as granted. That's fine to get some education by playing a video game. What's even better is a game giving you the will to read about History. Not saying this is the sole reason, but playing games like Civ and Age certainly helped that. The Internet awaits you with its open arms.

 

[Djc]

Hehe, I started playing the game when I was 10 or something. I grew up learning from that game. Everything I know has come from there.

What else has Sid taught me all wrong that I should know about before I make a fool out of myself again? Sid is bringing embarassment and humiliation to me.

Also, you can't build temple out of stacked shields. I know, all the lying just cuts me to my core.

 

[CdGGambit]

I personally have always thought of them as the same darn thing.

 

[gakkun]

Incorrect. The Alphabet is a more advanced system. Humans needed to witness the impracticalities of "symbol" writing first hand before elaborating a more flexible and simple way to write.

Not to say the alphabet is the ONLY thing that works, many cultures have kept writings based on symbols, it's just that using an alphabet system is much easier to learn, for children and for foreigners learning a new language.

why do people always that 'mine is better than yours' sentiment even when it comes to languages. Are you even proficient at a non-alphabetic language?

As both a Chinese and English speaker (and writer) I can tell you that writing does not take more time when I write in Chinese. It also takes up less space in that 90% of concepts can be expressed in two characters instead of whatever number is required like many words in this post. I have also read somewhere that the human brain is more proficient at at reading 'symbols' - ie. symbol -> meaning instead of phoenetic words where the brain needs to make more steps to interpret the meaning: word -> sound -> meaning.

And I don't think Chinese is more difficult to learn than say Latin. The reason why many foreign (especially of non-Asian origin) people find Chinese difficult is because comparatively, the languages in their own language group are much easier to learn, for example German or French. I mean, they hardly have to relearn the alphabet whereas Chinese is a completely new concept. The Chinese have already simplified the language in terms of writing yet English speaking nations still turn a blind eye on many illogical holes littered through the language.

 

[QiZhe]

Well, some things like the tech tree isn't like perfect. You don't have to be polytheistic in order to have a monarchy.

But these games are generally pretty good with history. I referred to the war in the AoEIIC scenario with the Koreans and the Japanese with the turtle ships once on a test on Korea. And I'm the only one in my history class who's heard of Adam Smith.

 

[Volstag]

Now what genius came up with this idea? Now all we need is a "Numbers" technology right after Mathematics, and we will have the most perfect game ever made. It would also be a nice touch to move up the The Wheel after Combustion.

This might be a newsflash, but it's possible to write w/o using an alphabet (pictograms, ideograms, hieroglyphics).

 

[Urederra]

So, In the game it should be the option of researching for the BIC pen first, then, writting and then the alphabet, How the h*ll would you be able to write without a BiC pen? Somebody should have invented the BIC pen before inventing writting. That's what I mean.

Or BIC pen grow in tress? I don't think so.


..
.
.
.
.
.
.

 

[oxonian2001]

The Chinese have already simplified the language in terms of writing yet English speaking nations still turn a blind eye on many illogical holes littered through the language.

An unfair slam against the English-speaking world. The Americans, in particular, have engaged in a centuries-long and concerted campaign to simplify spelling: changing "dialogue" to "dialog," "aencyclopoedia" to "encyclopedia," and "check" instead of "cheque."

Daniel Webster, the great American statesman and lexiconographer, explicitly championed simpler spellings to make it easier for illiterate farmers to learn their letters and become more effective citizens of the new democracy.

I happen not to like the drive towards simplification, mainly because I'm a somewhat-reflexive traditionalist (not to say sentimentalist). But it's hardly accurate to say that there's no effort to reform English.

 

[EvilGuy]

why do people always that 'mine is better than yours' sentiment even when it comes to languages. Are you even proficient at a non-alphabetic language?

As both a Chinese and English speaker (and writer) I can tell you that writing does not take more time when I write in Chinese. It also takes up less space in that 90% of concepts can be expressed in two characters instead of whatever number is required like many words in this post. I have also read somewhere that the human brain is more proficient at at reading 'symbols' - ie. symbol -> meaning instead of phoenetic words where the brain needs to make more steps to interpret the meaning: word -> sound -> meaning.

And I don't think Chinese is more difficult to learn than say Latin. The reason why many foreign (especially of non-Asian origin) people find Chinese difficult is because comparatively, the languages in their own language group are much easier to learn, for example German or French. I mean, they hardly have to relearn the alphabet whereas Chinese is a completely new concept. The Chinese have already simplified the language in terms of writing yet English speaking nations still turn a blind eye on many illogical holes littered through the language.

I am not undermining symbolitic writing, i beleive it is a much more beautiful form of communication, and is absolutely fascinating to say the least.

But communication-wise, in a fast-paced multi-cultured world, the alphabet is the leading technique to communicate written text. It is not surprising that English is the leading trade and political language of the world, and the world's number 1 second language, as it easy to learn, both in reading and speech.

That is not to say symbolitic writting is doomed. Only that it is not the method of choice for multi-culture communication.

It is obvious that a 20 year old chinese person learning english will learn faster than a 20 yer old english person learning chinese.

 

[Melendwyr]

That is not to say symbolitic writting is doomed. Only that it is not the method of choice for multi-culture communication.

Not exactly. Symbolic writing was so prevalent in China precisely because so many people used different languages within it. An alphabetic script would have been of limited use, but a symbolic one would be understood by everyone.

I doubt you could read and understand something written in Middle English, but Chinese speakers can read things thousands of years older than that with relative ease.

 

[jinif]

Sid is bringing embarassment and humiliation to me.

With a name like "Gangzta Wigga" I don't think you needed Sid's help to humiliate yourself.

 

[EvilGuy]

I doubt you could read and understand something written in Middle English, but Chinese speakers can read things thousands of years older than that with relative ease.

Haven't Chinese symbols morphed dramatically over time?

... and of course we can't understand anything written in Middle English as it was still being established, being created by a handful of educated people, making written words out of the spoken ones from the country side, by mixing and using appellations from other languages etc... I think nowadays, the English language is a bit more 'solid' and modifications/additions to it probably requires a commitee to approve.