WTH? Can someone explain how the AI can maintain such a large army FINANCIALLY?

[Louis XXIV]

How many cities are there? If there are 10 cities and a unit is produced one every 10 turns, it'll average to 1 per turn. That's something worth considering. This assumes the numbers are actually remaining stagnant and not just that there were a lot of units so it takes a long time for them to be significantly reduced.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

This is assuming the AI has 10 strong production cities, something which I honestly have never encountered, they might have 1 or 2, usually due to occasionally not settling on a completely ******** spot but if a civ has 10 cities, most of them will be complete crap that can churn out a unit every 30-40 turns (unless they sell all their buildings before you conquer them and I'm just assuming those cities are terrible, but considering I often find a couple of buildings in the cities, I doubt it).

 

[moredrowsy]

From the reveal map on the console, he has 26 cities. I have 21 cities (so ok he has 5 more cities than me but we covered about the same amount of land).

I'm playing on huge continent map so I took my time playing conquering the 3 nations in my continent. This game is actually dragged on quite a bit. I was actually playing quite peacefully as a one city mega wonder builder till people started to expand near my one city and started war. I'm on my 474 turns still at medieval era. lol. O well, I'm just going to start on a new game on a medium map. Maybe I'll play on a pangeon map so there won't be one civ on a continent all by himself and turn into this monster Spain pumping out crazy units.

Edit: proofread

 

[NotSure]

That really does sound like an interesting game. What mod were you using? I wonder if the AI is more prone to attempt domination victories because two of the victory conditions are unachievable. Since science progress is not an issue, and maybe only a couple AI have rolled a cultural strategy, the rest just get stuck pumping out medieval units and smacking each other around until the game times out?

 

[nokmirt]

I remember one game I was playing as the Arabians. In the game I was using the end at the medieval era mod. It was very difficult to get enough money together to keep a large land army going, because of the lack of banks and stock exchanges. The other problem was that fact that it became more difficult to sell extra resources for cash. The Ais' just gang up on you. During the game I conquered the Persians, but then had to deal with Babylon, Egypt, British, and the Ottomans all at once, who dowed me. Mister warmonger they called me. I am trying to think of which map it was. It was from the map pack that they put out on steam, containing the fertile crescent.

Along my southern border there was a river crossing I had to defend and a sea area, which lead to a peninsula where the British were. Man! The British kept coming with these huge amphibious operations of embarked units with no protection from triremes. I cut them down time and time again, what units of their's which made it to shore, I slaughtered with my camel archers. The problem was I got declared on and overwhelmed by the Ottoman army to the south who had their cities to the left of the British. The reason I got overwhelmed was the fact that I had to split my army to deal with Babylon who decided to attack at the same time from the east. A two front war, South and East, put too much pressure on my economy, and severely strained my defensive military scheme. The Ottomans were awesome, I killed so many of them trying to cross the river, but they were just too strong, as in real life. My economy was running around -5 gpt and had about 1000 gold left, out of that I had to purchase units to fortify my position, until I had about 100 left. The AI had just too many units and they began to overrun me. It was a good learning game for me, but in the end I was not going to be able to overcome them. So I quit. I wish I had some allies thats for sure. It would be more fun, the game, if the whole world did not hate you all at once. In any case what a battle it was.

 

[Necrotaur]

I've read so often on these forums that the AI never has to disband units, however much in debt it is that I assumed it was common knowledge.

Bottomline, the AI cheats, on pretty much any level at pretty much everything, this is all just compensation for it's inability to actually play this game.

This. The main differences between the difficulty levels is how much the AI is *allowed* to cheat. Based on my experiences, I'm fairly confident they don't have to have a viable economy in order to field a large army.

 

[TPQ]

Bottom line: Get your reading sorted. I did say "I'm playing on a mod that ends a medieval era" at the second sentence. -_-

THERE'S NO BANKS OR STOCK EXCHANGE. Hence, did you read that the military units were spearmen, swordsman, and archers? Geez.

Yeah... I didn't write that you needed banks or stock exchanges now did I..? Why would you think I wrote that? You already said your tech tree ended in medieval? You can't research the techs that unlock those buildings... Sorted get reading your Geez .

Puppets, surrounded by trade posts will bring in more money than banks and stock exchanges ever could. Add a few markets and trade routes and you should have all the money you need.

By medieval, I usually have ~100 gpt, in excess of my costs. Either don't garrison units, or do garrison them, but get the social policy that negates their cost. By medieval, I usually have ~20 units on active duty and could support more if I needed them. 20 is enough for two fronts though.

The AIs are known to get bonuses that make it easier for them to build and supports units, which is how they can have such unnecessarily large active armies.

The human just needs to get lots of puppets, surround them with trade posts and link them up with an efficient road network to fund many more units than is required to squash the AIs.

 

[nokmirt]

Yeah... I didn't write that you needed banks or stock exchanges now did I..? Why would you think I wrote that? You already said your tech tree ended in medieval? You can't research the techs that unlock those buildings... Sorted get reading your Geez .

Puppets, surrounded by trade posts will bring in more money than banks and stock exchanges ever could. Add a few markets and trade routes and you should have all the money you need.

By medieval, I usually have ~100 gpt, in excess of my costs. Either don't garrison units, or do garrison them, but get the social policy that negates their cost. By medieval, I usually have ~20 units on active duty and could support more if I needed them. 20 is enough for two fronts though.

The AIs are known to get bonuses that make it easier for them to build and supports units, which is how they can have such unnecessarily large active armies.

The human just needs to get lots of puppets, surround them with trade posts and link them up with an efficient road network to fund many more units than is required to squash the AIs.

Well there you have it. This I will remember for the next time. I had three or four puppets in my game of pretty decent size, that I did not build tradeposts for. I should have built trade posts to make enough money to support a larger army.

 

[PhilBowles]

The screenshots would have to count all AI units two turns in a row. Like I said, my theory is that they are losing one unit per turn and simply building new units to replace them. It doesn't matter if you lose one gold per turn or 100 gold per turn when it comes to units being disbanded.

In my current game France is at -18 gold a turn, building units to protect its borders against me (I'm currently in a war with Rome and America and can't devote time/units to take Paris). To return to the question of how this is sustainable financially, Civ V handles gold loss differently from previous games - if you completely run out and still have negative income, you aren't forced to sacrifice units or buildings, instead the gold penalty turns into a science per turn penalty (i.e. when Napoleon's coffers run dry he'll be at -18 science a turn). Since AIs get science bonuses, and are often ahead of the human, they can sustain these costs where a human can't.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Actually, you lose one unit per turn if you're in negative gold.

 

[Maxym]

Actually, you lose one unit per turn if you're in negative gold.

Never happened to me, the game says I will lose it, yet I run huge (-55gpt) deficits for many turns, and as long as my science held up no units disbanded. On higher diff levels, don't have much experience in prince.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well there you have it. This I will remember for the next time. I had three or four puppets in my game of pretty decent size, that I did not build tradeposts for. I should have built trade posts to make enough money to support a larger army.

I gave up the game where I'd been beating the French, as the Romans took Gao (I couldn't both hold it and keep a sufficient deterrent to prevent the large French army from attacking as they clearly wanted to). I had two cities of my own and three puppets, and only achieved positive income when I finished connecting the puppets to my trade network - even then it was +20 or so a turn, not the +100 quoted here. Trading posts would undoubtedly have helped.

 

[moredrowsy]

@TDP

My air force consisted of 10 stealth bombers, 15 bombers, 5 Jet fighters and 5 fighters.

b/c you were giving a irrevelant era example at modern era when i specifically stated medieval. Giving examples on HOW GOOD YOU DID MODERN era has no regards to what I am asking. also, i HIGHLY (VERY HIGHLY) doubt u don't have banks/stock exchanges at modern era to support your economy. lol. I certainly don't have problem with gold maintenance when the era progresses into industrial, modern etc. I can also easily get +700 gpt at the modern era...

but anyways, i don't feel like pupetting cities for the extra unhappiness and courthouse maintenance. though, i should maybe spend one or two new cities specifically with only gold post and keep the popoluation low to 3-4. but honestly, i don't think this strategy with cities that has only gold post works very well at medieval era unless u build over 10 cities that does it. the gold post basically just negate the happiness building maintenance (and it'll take a LONG time to build happiness buildings since u don't have production improvements with low citizens). it would work for pupetting cities bc they might already have production points. but i dont see a point to pupet for extra unhappiness.

Also, yes, I find out the problem. Like what the civ'ers have posted, the AI just receive huge bonus stats. I just want to UNDERSTAND how the the AI can sustain over 70 military units with -55gold/turn. This is 70 units. 70 UNITS. 70 UNITS. I'll say it again. THIS IS 70 OR MORE UNITS. Like, where's the penalty when they obviously are bankrupt (they have 0 gold in treasury, and -55 gpt)?! But enough ranting, I think this is end of discussion. THE AI JUST CHEATS. jeez.

Also, I might just try the ai equalizer with end of medieval mod to see if this solves the problem.

EDIT:
@NotSure
I got the mod from the mod browser. Just search for "End at" from search box. You'll get a list of End at Classical, End at Medieval, End at etc. mods. Also, I think you are right. I think since end of medieval era probably forces the AI to go with only domination victory since there is no science victory. Though, there is a culture victory. Then again, these civs like mongolia, france, and etc are known to just go for domination victory.

Edit 2: I'm playing a different game on a european landmass map but with End at Medieval mod again. The same situation arises. Mongolia has an impossible number of military units going into -455 gpt. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl. -455 gpt. Luckily, I'm friendly with him but STILL. -455 gpt. REALLY? Okay, so if the AI can just basically ignore negative gold per turns, then WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE TO EVEN HAVE POSITIVE GOLD PER TURN?

 

[headcase]

Edit 2: I'm playing a different game on a european landmass map but with End at Medieval mod again. The same situation arises. Mongolia has an impossible number of military units going into -455 gpt. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl. -455 gpt. Luckily, I'm friendly with him but STILL. -455 gpt. REALLY? Okay, so if the AI can just basically ignore negative gold per turns, then WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE TO EVEN HAVE POSITIVE GOLD PER TURN?

Being out of gold also slows down tech, but I doubt the AI is affected by this either. Gold management is beyond the AI's capabilities (see also: AI Happiness management).

 

[Drago Askani]

This is assuming the AI has 10 strong production cities, something which I honestly have never encountered, they might have 1 or 2, usually due to occasionally not settling on a completely ******** spot but if a civ has 10 cities, most of them will be complete crap that can churn out a unit every 30-40 turns (unless they sell all their buildings before you conquer them and I'm just assuming those cities are terrible, but considering I often find a couple of buildings in the cities, I doubt it).

Not to mock you too terribly, but um you are aware that when you conquer a city alot of the building are automatically wiped out right? Its an on purpose game design.

Never happened to me, the game says I will lose it, yet I run huge (-55gpt) deficits for many turns, and as long as my science held up no units disbanded. On higher diff levels, don't have much experience in prince.

Not negative GPT, but negative gold, as in you are at 0 gold and have a Negative gpt. As long as you have even 1gold in the bank your negative doesn't matter for unit counts.

 

[nokmirt]

I gave up the game where I'd been beating the French, as the Romans took Gao (I couldn't both hold it and keep a sufficient deterrent to prevent the large French army from attacking as they clearly wanted to). I had two cities of my own and three puppets, and only achieved positive income when I finished connecting the puppets to my trade network - even then it was +20 or so a turn, not the +100 quoted here. Trading posts would undoubtedly have helped.

Yes they would have in my game. I still wonder if it would have been enough. I was outgunned militarily about 4 to 1.

 

[PhilBowles]

Yes they would have in my game. I still wonder if it would have been enough. I was outgunned militarily about 4 to 1.

Building even one Citadel in their attack path will do wonders - that's what led to the initial French surrender in that game; they lost their entire (large) army attacking Troyes with a defending Citadel (when they finally had the numbers to attack and beat the defender, they lost one unit to melee attack and the victorious unit to Citadel damage - I just moved a new unit into the Citadel next turn).

 

[nokmirt]

Building even one Citadel in their attack path will do wonders - that's what led to the initial French surrender in that game; they lost their entire (large) army attacking Troyes with a defending Citadel (when they finally had the numbers to attack and beat the defender, they lost one unit to melee attack and the victorious unit to Citadel damage - I just moved a new unit into the Citadel next turn).

Yes, but then you have to give up a great general. If I had an extra one, I surely would have looked into trying that. I would have placed it on my side of the river against the Ottomans. A citadel would have made a big difference there.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Not to mock you too terribly, but um you are aware that when you conquer a city alot of the building are automatically wiped out right? Its an on purpose game design.

From the sheer amount of pointless buildings I still see whenever I take a CC or a capitol in comparison to any other cities I'd say that's either untrue or it's a fixed percentual value, still making the point that most of an AIs cities are deserted of infrastructure.

And 4 to 1 odds are pretty good in this game actually, it's when it gets over 10 to 1 that you should start to worry.

Playing a game currently where Monty has about 20 rifles walking around from around 4 cities, about 40gpt deficit, due to bad placement they should not have any real production capabilities, in the same game (with complete kills on) I took or destroyed all of Mongolia's cities, yet they still have a worker and a keshik while being at a couple gpt deficit.
I expect Maxyms explanation might be the correct one, as we've seen in many cases before, the interface can sometimes lack a lot of information, or just be wrong.

 

[nokmirt]

Ok I am going to try to play my game as Arabia again and try to use more tradeposts in my puppet cities. This should enable me to support a much larger army. I will need it because I suspect the AI will gang up on my poor Arabs again. Let's see what happens.

I will give some details soon. If anyone is interested. Well I am there needs to be redemption and it will get me back into the game again.