Wu Zetian, the OCC wonders builder

[AeonOfTime]

In the current game I am playing, I decided to go for france and a west/east map setup to see how that plays out (marathon speed, standard size, 8 players). As it is quite a big map, I thought that having a partner might be good, so I teamed up with Wu Zetian.

Well...

Wu Zetian has proven to be almost completely useless so far. Right from the start, she decided to let me do the empire building while she builds wonders in an undersized and undeveloped city.

I watched, perplexed, as Beijing skipped building workers, settlers or any other type of building than wonders, as the other empires settled around her small city until it was surrounded. So now we are in turn 617, 1444 A.D. and she has just started building Big Ben (292 turns to completion)...

I wish I could kick her and tell her to at least build a worker

Has anyone experienced something like this before?

 

[LordTC]

I suspect its that OCC applies to the human players team and the AI hasn't be programmed for playing OCC so it does all sorts of silly things.

 

[AeonOfTime]

I suspect its that OCC applies to the human players team and the AI hasn't be programmed for playing OCC so it does all sorts of silly things.

Oh, if you look at the minimap in my screenshot you'll see that I was not playing OCC at all - Wu Zetian decided on her own to do a one-city challenge for herself while I am building an empire.

 

[Nunya]

Looking at the leader flavors, she has a 4 in expansion (tied with Nebuchadnezzar for second lowest value among all leaders, only Ghandi is lower) and an 8 in growth (tied with Gandhi for the highest value among all leaders). Then consider that in individual games this may vary for up to 2 points so her expansion flavor can be as low as 2 and her growth flavor can be as high as 10.

With other words, her and Ghandi are the most likely AI leaders to try and pull of a OCC. Witch is a horrible waste of her unique building.

If you want an ally who expands go for Augustus, Catherine, Suleiman, or one of the notorious warmongers. As far as warmonger hate goes Monty has the lowest and other warmongers generally aren't high either except Nobunaga who is a hypocrite in that regard.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

I had the exact same problem down to the Leader. Too bad you're not allowed to punish them for that and take those pyramids, that thing is seriously underrated as no worker stacking means you can't instaimprove tiles, saving you thousands of citizen-turns working unimproved tiles.

On another note, it's amusing that the AI aren't the only ones planting down ridiculous pink dot-style cities!

 

[AeonOfTime]

Looking at the leader flavors, she has a 4 in expansion (tied with Nebuchadnezzar for second lowest value among all leaders, only Ghandi is lower) and an 8 in growth (tied with Gandhi for the highest value among all leaders). Then consider that in individual games this may vary for up to 2 points so her expansion flavor can be as low as 2 and her growth flavor can be as high as 10.

With other words, her and Ghandi are the most likely AI leaders to try and pull of a OCC. Witch is a horrible waste of her unique building.

Thanks for the details! What stilll bothers me a bit is that she did not even bother building at least a worker - she has marble nearby, and for all the wonders she builds claiming that would have been a great asset.

If you want an ally who expands go for Augustus, Catherine, Suleiman, or one of the notorious warmongers. As far as warmonger hate goes Monty has the lowest and other warmongers generally aren't high either except Nobunaga who is a hypocrite in that regard.

Agreed on the hypocrite part I will try one of those leaders next time.

 

[DaveGold]

Has anyone experienced something like this before?

I've seen the AI Songhai do the same thing, wonders not workers, in a simple random pangea game. I don't know if they lose their first worker to barbarians and then forget to build another.

 

[Nunya]

Thanks for the details! What stilll bothers me a bit is that she did not even bother building at least a worker - she has marble nearby, and for all the wonders she builds claiming that would have been a great asset.

It would. But she also has a 4 in tile improvement (nobody has lower), so she generally doesn't like building workers. The leaders with the highest tile improvement flavor are Augustus, Darius, Ramses, and Nebuchadnezzar who all have a 7. They all like building workers as much as Monty and Napoleon likes going to war so that's saying something.

All in all I'd say Wu has one of the weaker playstyles among all the AI leaders. She likes big cities and science, but not expansion or tile improvement so her population stays pretty low and she actually falls behind in science. That is unles she gets attacked early in the game and she somehow manages to win in which case she might get a bunch of cities as part of the peace offer. And with a focus on defensive and ranged units she actually does reasonably well in war, especially once she gets hur UU.

 

[AeonOfTime]

It would. But she also has a 4 in tile improvement (nobody has lower), so she generally doesn't like building workers. The leaders with the highest tile improvement flavor are Augustus, Darius, Ramses, and Nebuchadnezzar who all have a 7. They all like building workers as much as Monty and Napoleon likes going to war so that's saying something.

All in all I'd say Wu has one of the weaker playstyles among all the AI leaders. She likes big cities and science, but not expansion or tile improvement so her population stays pretty low and she actually falls behind in science. That is unles she gets attacked early in the game and she somehow manages to win in which case she might get a bunch of cities as part of the peace offer. And with a focus on defensive and ranged units she actually does reasonably well in war, especially once she gets hur UU.

Sounds like she could use some fine-tuning to unleash her potential as an opponent, otherwise this means you can strategically choose her in games where you want to be able to predict who is likely to be your hardest opponent.

 

[Nunya]

The only change she really needs to make her competitive is to up her expansion flavor. High expansionism is already important for everyone (probably the most significant leader flavor), but in the case of China it's even more pronounced because more cities = more Paper Makers = lots of gold.

Also, with her low flavor in offense and high growth she'd probably be fairly keen on developing her cities while her high flavors in defense and ranged coupled with high gold income would give her a strong defense (the AI is pretty good at rush buying an army to defend itself).

 

[Civsassin]

The OCC in Civ V is very doable. The new combat system and game mechanics make going for a culture victory the easiest with few cities and preferrably one. I think the biggest flaw in Civ V is in its AI performance. The AI is a dunce in many areas of the game. If you are going to go for an OCC, one worker and a suitable defensive army are absolutely necessary while you plow through policy branches and wonders.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's annoying that in every iteration of civ, some AI "flavors" boil down to them deliberately playing poorly and feeding other AI or the human players. Crappy play is not a "flavor", it's crappy play, and it changes the game dynamic in a bad way more often than not due to the extra unnecessary luck element.

 

[Nunya]

OOC is doable, but only for the human player. The AI sucks at it.

 

[Redeyes]

The OCC in Civ V is very doable. The new combat system and game mechanics make going for a culture victory the easiest with few cities and preferrably one. I think the biggest flaw in Civ V is in its AI performance. The AI is a dunce in many areas of the game. If you are going to go for an OCC, one worker and a suitable defensive army are absolutely necessary while you plow through policy branches and wonders.

Alright, this is the strategy forum and I would absolutely like to know how to do it. I don't mind if you link me to another thread, the subject is just interesting


Also, how logical is it for China to be the least willing to expand?

 

[/solar/]

OOC is doable, but only for the human player. The AI sucks at it.

Which is bizarre, because OCC strategy is so simple. Surely the AI could be programmed to play out a perfect OCC.

 

[Civsassin]

It's annoying that in every iteration of civ, some AI "flavors" boil down to them deliberately playing poorly and feeding other AI or the human players. Crappy play is not a "flavor", it's crappy play, and it changes the game dynamic in a bad way more often than not due to the extra unnecessary luck element.

I love Civ V, but the biggest improvements need to be made to AI performance. Most all of my gripes boil down to the AI playing stupidly.

 

[Civsassin]

Alright, this is the strategy forum and I would absolutely like to know how to do it. I don't mind if you link me to another thread, the subject is just interesting


Also, how logical is it for China to be the least willing to expand?

I would start an OCC with either SIAM or India. India is intuitive for it since Gandi's passive benefit punishes expansion and rewards large populations. SIAM isn't so intuitive, but it's UB and passive benefit allow you to blow through policies. The Wat, which replaces the University, also provides +3 culture. The passive benefits doubles city-states culture and food. You will rack up culture and grow a huge population. You will also never experience unhappy citizens.

Policies: Tradition, Piety, Patronage, Freedom, Order

Build your one city on a hill for the defensive benefits, and keep some up to date units for self defense. Keep an up to date siege unit in your city. and some modern melee units in defensive positions. Prioritize "The Great Wall, "Hemeji Castle," and "The Kremlin" for defensive purposes. With walls and a castle, you will be practically impregnable.

Get a few units out early to get the cash from barbarian emcampments and scouts to search for city-states. If you are on the water, get a Tireme out early for the same reason.

Great artists are your friends. Not for their cultural value, but because they can expand your territory tremendously via culture bombs. Have them expand in the direction of luxury resources for happiness and trades. Even if you cannot "work" the tile, once improved, you'll still get the five happiness and ability to trade the resource. The extra territory will give you a lot of time to maneuver your forces to respond to an attack as enemy units move slowly (The Great Wall) towards your city. Once they get near, you hammer them with siege and have your couple of melee units mop up. Prioritize culture and policy-related wonders. Micromanage your specialists to pop Engineers (for wonders) and Artists (for land). Switch between different city focuses based on your needs. When you need to pop out a major build, switch to production focus, which will also generate great engineer points.

City growth is your friend. You will be able to run your economy on specialists AND working your most productive tiles. The "Statue of Liberty" is huge since you will be using many specialists as your population grows.

Prioritize "Stonehenge," "The Oracle," "Angkor Wat," "Cristo Redentor," "Sistine Chapel," "The Sydney Opera House," "The Hagia Sophia," and "The Louvre." Obviously, you cannot get them all, but you can probably get most based on your production capability.

This should get you started. If you want to make it easier on yourself, try an archipelago style map. You are much less likely to get attacked early even on higher levels, and you'll have time to implement your strategy. The other civs won't avoid you forever, so keep a good defensive force no matter where you start.

I'm sure others will add to this post. Good luck.

 

[AeonOfTime]

Build your one city on a hill for the defensive benefits, and keep some up to date units for self defense. Keep an up to date siege unit in your city. and some modern melee units in defensive positions. Prioritize "The Great Wall, "Hemeji Castle," and "The Kremlin" for defensive purposes. With walls and a castle, you will be practically impregnable.

Agreed - I played a contrived OCC a while ago (it was a very tight map and I missed my chance to settle a second city), and you definitely need a good defensive position.

My addition to Civsassin's post is that a great general is a huge help as well. Ideally you need two of them, one to keep around for unit bonuses and one to build a citadel in a key location. In the game I mentioned the citadel was the single thing that kept me alive as Elizabeth repeatedly threw her whole might at me.

Oh, and on a sidenote: artilleries can get EVIL with enough experience. In that game I had two, and after a while they both could fire two times per turn and 1 additional tile in range. Not much could get close with those

 

[bryanw1995]

ideally in a OCC game you shouldn't be going to war. make tons of trades with nearby civs, give them slightly favorable terms, poc, pos vs rival civs that are far away, ob, etc etc etc. at least up to emperor this has been extremely effective for me, haven't tried it on immortal+ yet but I suspect that it gets much more challenging at the highest difficulties.

 

[Civsassin]

Agreed - I played a contrived OCC a while ago (it was a very tight map and I missed my chance to settle a second city), and you definitely need a good defensive position.

My addition to Civsassin's post is that a great general is a huge help as well. Ideally you need two of them, one to keep around for unit bonuses and one to build a citadel in a key location. In the game I mentioned the citadel was the single thing that kept me alive as Elizabeth repeatedly threw her whole might at me.

Oh, and on a sidenote: artilleries can get EVIL with enough experience. In that game I had two, and after a while they both could fire two times per turn and 1 additional tile in range. Not much could get close with those

I forgot to add that. Good point. Put one or more Citadels down and put a strong melee unit in it. That with artillery, and your practically invincible.