Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

Ethiopia certainly warrants a “full path,” though I’m concerned whether future civs and leaders will be added more based on fan outcry due to the current state of the game and less based on how well they plug holes or fit the game’s design philosophy.
My concern is how far they’ll actually go with this game if the reviews don’t improve in the coming months.

I feel like the next one that should get at least get a full path is Persia, but I'm not even optimistic about that.
Well, we’re already getting Qajar, so that means we only need something from the Exploration Age to complete a full historical Persian path — and I don’t think that will be too difficult.
 
Well, we’re already getting Qajar, so that means we only need something from the Exploration Age to complete a full historical Persian path — and I don’t think that will be too difficult.
You are right. I just feel like the Abbasids cover a lot of the timeframe of that age, so they might just be the default path. I'd prefer the Sassanids, but they do have a smaller window of relevancy.
I'm not sure if they would do Safavids because they'd seem too similar to the Qajar. I could also see them putting some Safavid elements into Qajar too.
 
You are right. I just feel like the Abbasids cover a lot of the timeframe of that age, so they might just be the default path. I'd prefer the Sassanids, but they do have a smaller window of relevancy.
I'm not sure if they would do Safavids because they'd seem too similar to the Qajar. I could also see them putting some Safavid elements into Qajar too.
Another solid option would be the Seljuks, since their vast reach across much of Central Asia and the Middle East would make them a fitting predecessor for both the Qajar and the Ottomans (and maybe even for a potential Durrani civ).
 
I'd based Denmark off of its post Viking period like when it was the capital of the Kalmar Union, throughout the Early Modern period when it was in a personal union with Norway.
It also should be noted that the Norman Civ has no real features that are reminiscent of the Vikings. it's the Frenglish Civ, that's their entire identity.

The actual Viking Civ should probably be in Antiquity for logistical reasons, the same reasoning behind Mississipians and Khmer being shoved in Antiquity. Too many other Exploration Civs (Rus', Normans, Danes, Irish, Scots) descend from them.

Denmark can be the direct continuation of that line if you give them an ability that buffs raiding or naval combat, and then slowly transition them into their Kalmar Union identity via the Civics tree and Traditions. The traits for Denmark as I see them are Diplomatic and either Militaristic or Scientific for the other.

The only argument against Denmark is if the datamined Icelandic Civ turns out to not only be true, but also be an Exploration Civ.

I'd like to see that. Though I could also see the devs use Somalia (specifically the Ajuran Sultanate) to fill the role of the Exploration Age civ in that region.

I agree that the Ethiopian line can take a detour via Somalia (Ajuraan, Adal, etc) for Exploration. A good deal of Ethiopia is islamic, so there is a basis for it. The alternative would be to go for Exploration Sudan. (Alodia or Makuria).

Ofc the cleanest approach would have been to include Nubia over Aksum in Antiquity, which would then allow for Nubia => Aksum => Ethiopia. But you cannot plan too far ahead when you're developing your game.
 
My concern is how far they’ll actually go with this game if the reviews don’t improve in the coming months.


Well, we’re already getting Qajar, so that means we only need something from the Exploration Age to complete a full historical Persian path — and I don’t think that will be too difficult.

I hope the game makes it enough to build it the roster! I’m thinking we’ll at least make it to 20 civs per era. Hopefully they’ll start prioritizing making decent paths. If we are only getting say 60 civs, things like the Abbasids being the exploration stage for Persia are ok imo.
 
Denmark can be the direct continuation of that line if you give them an ability that buffs raiding or naval combat, and then slowly transition them into their Kalmar Union identity via the Civics tree and Traditions. The traits for Denmark as I see them are Diplomatic and either Militaristic or Scientific for the other.
I think a Modern Sweden would be Militaristic and Scientific, so either one would help progress into them. Though I would imagine Denmark to be more Economic than Militaristic or Scientific.
The only argument against Denmark is if the datamined Icelandic Civ turns out to not only be true, but also be an Exploration Civ.
My gut feeling is that's scrapped content, at least for DLC. Iceland would definitely feel like another "Viking" civ, especially if they have to make an Antiquity Norse in the future for them to go into.
At least I don't think they'd give us a Pirate Republic and add a whole other age that's not in an expansion.
Ofc the cleanest approach would have been to include Nubia over Aksum in Antiquity, which would then allow for Nubia => Aksum => Ethiopia. But you cannot plan too far ahead when you're developing your game.
I don't feel like Nubia fits in with the rest of Sub-Sahara Africa. It has always been more intertwined with the rest of North Africa and it's currently under the influence of Islam more, so I think Nubia>Abbasids, or any Exploration North African civ, fits more.
 
I hope the game makes it enough to build it the roster! I’m thinking we’ll at least make it to 20 civs per era. Hopefully they’ll start prioritizing making decent paths. If we are only getting say 60 civs, things like the Abbasids being the exploration stage for Persia are ok imo.
I feel like 60 civs (20 per era) still isn’t enough to make the game feel cohesive and fully cover its gaps. I think 25 civs per era is the minimum needed for that. It’s also worth noting that 60 civs in this game isn’t quite the same as 60 civs in Civ6, for example, since some civs have multiple versions of themselves — China already has three versions, Persia is getting two, and it’s highly likely Japan will also have more than one version in the future.

My gut feeling is that's scrapped content, at least for DLC. Iceland would definitely feel like another "Viking" civ, especially if they have to make an Antiquity Norse in the future for them to go into.
At least I don't think they'd give us a Pirate Republic and add a whole other age that's not in an expansion.
I might be wrong, I don’t quite remember, but but it seems to me that the files mentioned a "maritime civilizations pack" or something along those lines?
I recall Tonga and the Māori being mentioned as well. I definitely see them prioritizing the Oceania gaps soon, so I don’t think Tonga and the Māori will take long to be added.
 
I might be wrong, I don’t quite remember, but but it seems to me that the files mentioned a "maritime civilizations pack" or something along those lines?
I recall Tonga and the Māori being mentioned as well. I definitely see them prioritizing the Oceania gaps soon, so I don’t think Tonga and the Māori will take long to be added.
Here it is: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/asset-file-hinting-at-future-and-or-cut-content.695000/
Nothing about it explicitly says "Maritime civilizations pack" but people just said that because of the majority of the civs. I agree that I don't think it would take long for civs like the Tonga and Māori to show up, or obviously the Ottomans, but the other content like Atomic Age, Pirate Republic civ and Edward Teach and Whina Cooper as leaders I'm not as sure.
 
Alright, I'm delving into the Middle East. I HATE mapping out this this region for several reasons; The main one is that the Middle East is front-loaded: the coolest Civs are all in Antiquity and all of them are more or less in the fertile crescent.

This of course results in limited regional options for the levant and mesopotamia in Exploration. In Modern, well good luck finding any worthy Civ, they all suck oops.

Currently, the following Civs are available to be played:
  • Antiquity: Carthage, Egypt, Persia and Assyria
  • Exploration: Abbasids
  • Modern: Mughal (Qajar to be added in September).
  • Leaders: Ibn Battuta (more or less) ,Hatshepsut, Xerxes
So first of all, yes I define "Egypt" as both North-African and Middle Eastern. I do believe that Civs can be part of multiple geographical and/or cultural regions, and I think Egypt is a good starting point for both North-African and Middle Eastern lines.

The second is that I consider Ibn Battuta sort of a 'Free Agent' type of leader who can conceivably lead any muslim Civ, not specifically tied to any lines (and if he were to be tied to a path, it should be the Marghebian one, which is something we should tackle with the African paths.)

Abbasids is the only Middle Eastern Exploration civ, and they are a very interesting choice at that - they cover a lot of ground, as the Abbasid empire at its peak spanned the entire middle-east with the exception of Asia Minor. Any Civ from Mesopotamia, the Levant, Arabia, Persia, Central Asia and Egypt can conceivably become the Abbasids for historical reasons.

This turns the Abbasids into a bottleneck Civ, as many leaders and players will want to be this Civ if they want to stay historically accurate. As such, I think we'll need to work our way towards finding alternatives to the Abbasids whenever possible:
  • Medieval Persia
  • Medieval Arabia
  • Medieval Mesopotamia
  • Medieval Levant
  • Medieval Egypt

I believe the Abbasids can serve as the default option for ONE of these regions and as the alternative option for the other region. I believe that would not only cover a good amount of ground, it would allow for plenty of Middle Eastern leaders to co-exist peacefully alongside each other.

All of these regions would need a starting Civ, and as it happens, the four of the five Abbasid regions are accounted for:

  • Carthage can cover the Levant due to being Culturally Phoenician
  • Persia covers itself
  • Egypt covers itself
  • Assyria covers Mesopotamia
Arabia proper is still missing, but that's okay too - it can be covered by Assyria for the moment being, and a second Mesopotamian Civ (like Babylon or Sumer) later down the line, if not by the Nabateans.

The Regions that currently lack a Civ in any capacity are the Caucasus, Anatolia and Central Asia. The best choices for those Civs I think are fairly easy: Armenia, Hittites and Scythia respectively.

So to recap I think the Antiquity era roster for the Middle East could look like this:

  • Assyria
  • Carthage
  • Egypt
  • Persia
  • + Second Mesopotamian Faction (Suggestion: the Akkadian Empire, which is an intermediate stage between Sumer and Babylon)
  • + Armenia
  • + Hittites
  • + Scythia

And now for the Migraine potion of the post:

We now have to figure out what the end goal is we want to work towards, starting with the eight Civ Antiquity roster.


Armenia should be easy: It eventually leads into Russia and the Balkanic line. Georgia and Byzantium can be the middle stages.
Hitties is also easy: it should lead towards Turkey. Ottomans or Seljuqs (or both) can be the Exploration stages.
Scythia should be the clear precursor to Mongolia, which makes its ultimate destinations Qing, Mughal, Qajar and Russia.

The Mughals and Qajars should both descent from the medieval Persian line, which has no real equivalent. The current choices of Mongols and Abbasids are accurate. As such, I think it's important to add Medieval Persians down the line, but not as a high priority. Mughals and Qajars can also have a third line that unlocks them: the Indians for Mughals and the Turks for Qajars.
1754403677589.png


There are a few options for the Medieval Persian faction: The clear standout to me is the Seljuqs, which can tie into the Turkish line. A medieval Persian kingdom like the Samanids or the Khwarezmians can also work. I personally don't like the Sassanians or the Safavids for Chronological reasons, and will say I think the Safavids should have been the Modern Persian Civ over the Qajars imo.

Then we get to the currently absent Turkish line, with the ubiquitous Ottomans. What do we do with the Ottomans? Clearly they HAVE to be included, and soon, but in what age?

An argument can be made for both Exploration and Modern. The Ottomans rivaled many of the potential empires from both Era's and can technically be included in both.

So I would advocate to do exactly that: Make the Ottomans an Exploration AND Modern Civ, but call the Modern Civ Turkey.

Because of the little geographical overlap between Seljuqs and Ottomans, I believe that both can coexist alongside each other in the same Era. So, I would propose THIS as the Turkish line, starting with the Hittites and Scythia:
1754404315696.png


I believe there is enough material, in Wonders, Units, Infrastructure and Civic innovation to accomodate THREE Turkish Civs, all in Exploration and Modern. Not to mention that the Seljuqs and Ottomans can function as "regional wellfonts" in the same way the Abbasids do:

The Seljuqs can cover Iran, Mesopotamia and the Levant
The Ottomans can cover Anatolia, the Levant and the Caucasus

Of the two, I believe the Ottomans are more important to include, but I see no reason why we couldn't have both? The Ottomans can have the Jannisary, the Seljuq's the Sipahi. The Ottomans can have a Great Person, the Seljuqs a Commander. Any Turkish unique that isn't used for either can be used for the Modern Age Türkiye Civ, which is a direct continuation of the Ottomans.


The Ottomans in Exploration also gives us an additional way of developing Egypt: if a Modern Egypt were to be added, it can now be achieved via the Ottomans AND the Abbasids, eliminating the need of a medieval Arabic Egypt:

if the Ottomans are put in MODERN however, that forces the existence of a medieval Egyptian Civ: The Ayyubids could take that role, however, this runs into creative problems:
  • If the Ayyubids are included, it's harder to come up with Uniques for Modern Egypt, which eliminates the chances of getting Modern Egypt:
  • If the Ayyubids are included their signature unique unit, the Mamluk, will be unavailable as it's already used by the Abbasids.

So I actually believe the more correct approach is to actually include the Ottomans in Exploration, at least for this specific line. The alternative would be to go Ayyubids in Exploration and make OTTOMANS the end stage in Modern, which I think goes against the spirit of Modern Age Civs. Modern Egypt did indeed start as the Ottomans but didn't remain that way, which is exactly what we see with Civs such as Prussia and the Russian Empire, which have elements of the Bundesrepublik and Soviet Union respectively. For the Ottomans to behave similarly its Civics would have to unilaterally take it in the direction of the modern Turkish republic, which makes it unfit as an endpoint for the regions outside of Turkey proper.


So in short, this is my suggestion for Egypt:

1754405032457.png



The other concept sees Ottomans as the endpoint in Modern and Ayyubids as the alternative in Exploration over the Ottomans.

Note that I'm not even considering Songhai or medieval East Africa as valid outcomes :-)

After, Egypt, Persia and Anatolia, the next region to determine would be Arabia, the Levant and Mesopotamia.

Abbasids are clearly the default faction for that region. However, because you can become the Abbasids via Egypt and Persia, Abbasids are still too much of a bottleneck, even with two of Ottomans, Selquks and Ayyubids existing.

So, I think we need to add a second Civ to the general region of Levant/Arabia/Mesopotamia alongside the Abbasids.

There are a couple of options: a second Arabic faction for instance, like the Ayyubids, Umayyads or Rashiduns. The problem with that is the Abbasid design - it's THE Medieval Arabic faction by design and there's very little room left for another Arabia. Camel Archers and Watermills are still available for use, but that's about it.

Instead of going for a distinct Arabic faction, why not go for another country on the Arabic peninsula? I am formally suggesting YEMEN.

Yemen distinguishes itself from the Abbasids by having different origins, geography and strengths. While the Arabs are typically focused on Science, Culture and Religion, the Yemeni were agricultural and mercantile power. So where the Abbasids are Cultural and Scientific, the Yemeni can be Expansionist and Economic, with a flavour towards naval trade. This can also make them an acceptable Exploration stage for Askum (although Aksum is better off going for Somalia, rather than Yemen).

Yemen would then be followed by OMAN in the modern Era, which is one of the few muslim powers in the area actually worthy of inclusion in Civ.

1754412009814.png



Going for a unique Mesopotamian line however, is too much of a migraine to figure out. Antiquity Mesopotamia to Exploration and Modern Arabia however, I think is an elegant and believable solution.

So to recap, I think the following Civs definitely should be added soon:

  • Ottomans (Exploration & Modern): Absolutely have to be included for historical reasons, and I fully believe the Civ should be a direct continuation across both Exploration and Modern, with the Modern nation being called Türkiye.
  • Yemen: an Exploration Arabian Civ that helps alleviate pressure from Abbasids while retaining the Abbasids as the quintessential 'Arab Identity Civ'
  • Oman: The Modern destination for Abbasids that stays on the Arabian peninsula.
  • Scythia: An important Central Asian Civ to include, which unlocks Mongolia, Bulgaria and the medieval Persian lines.
Recommended Additions (lesser priority)
  • Hittites: Provides a starting point for the Anatolian Civs. Unlocks Byzantium and Ottomans, and shouldn't be added before either are.
  • Armenia & Georgia: Caucasus lines that give an alternative route towards Russia and the Balkans
  • Seljuqs: Can perfectly co-exist alongside Ottomans as a secondary stand-in for Medieval Persia (alongside Abbasids)
  • Modern Egypt (Misr): A historically accurate bookend for Egypt, that can lean into the Modern Era's archaeology mechanics.
  • Akkad: We'll likely see Babylon or Sumer added for historic reasons, and Akkad covers both.

Potential new leaders:

  • Tamerlane - Persia can support two leaders, and Tamerlane covers a lot of ground by himself due to his Turkic, Mongolic and Persianic heritage.
  • Muhammad Ali - Ottoman vizier for Egypt who was born in Greece and is of Albanian origin. He can cover a lot of Civs by himself, including Egypt, Ottomans, Modern Egypt and the Modern Balkanic Civ (especially if that Civ is Albania)
  • Arwa al Sulayhi - Queen of Yemen, gives a unique opportunity for a female arabian leader and gives the new Civ of Yemen an associated leader out of the bat.
  • Antiquity Mesopotamian or Levantine leader: It's less important who this person is, but it's kind of important that they're added. Mithtidates VI Eupator is a great choice here, as he's culturally Greek and yet can also perfectly represent Civs from the Caucasian and Turkic lines. Zenobia is also a strong choice, as she can be associated with Assyria.
 

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Omani could also come from a Kilwa civ. Come to think of it, Kilwa would be an excellent civ for this game, as it fits well as a connector between several other civilizations.
 
Omani could also come from a Kilwa civ. Come to think of it, Kilwa would be an excellent civ for this game, as it fits well as a connector between several other civilizations.
The current draft I have for Africa includes the Swahili as being an unlock for Oman, yeah.
 
My concern is how far they’ll actually go with this game if the reviews don’t improve in the coming months.
That too. I hope they put us out of our misery and tell us ASAP if they plan to stop the game flat out.
 
I'd personally have the Ayyubids over either Ottomans or Seljuks. It creates a more direct pathway for Egypt while taking more pressure off of the Abbasids. I'd also advocate for the Gokturks over Scythia in Antiquity, as they make more sense to transition into Bulgaria and the Seljuks/Ottomans, but thats more of a nitpick.

Egypt
Main:
Egypt > Ayyubids > Modern Egypt
Flex:
Persia, Assyria > Abbasids, Byzantium > Ottomans

Turks
Main:
Scythia > Seljuk > Ottomans/Turkiye
Flex:
Persia, Assyria > Abbasids, Mongols, Byzantium > Mughals

Persia
Main:
Persia > Abbasid > Qajar
Flex:
Assyria > Selkjuk, Mongols > Mughals

Arabia
Main:
Assyria > Yemen > Oman
Flex:
Persia > Abbasids, Ayyubids, Seljuks > Ottomans/Turkiye
 
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