Yah...Yah. More Warmonger stuff

[ballingforlife]

In a recent game, I was playing as Assyria when I found Shaka, who was beginning to go all "expansionist" on me, trapping me into the corner of the map (no world wrap). So I thought I would let him learn of the power of the siege tower.

Anyways, a couple turns after I noticed this and was building up my army, Casimir popped up and wanted to know if I would join in a war against the Zulus. Now normally I don't even care when the AIs ask me for this, but I actually thought it would be beneficial to shake up the world politics, especially as I had played a game with only one war as Polynesia in Brave New World.

Here's what happened: I ask the Poles to give me ten turns to prepare, and I was ready for an attack. When the time came to attack, I accepted and went to war. On this turn I thought I would see if I could also get a DOF with Casimir. To my own dismay, he was guarded, because the poles hate warmongers. I took a look at the other civilizations in the game and noticed that all of them except for Venice, who I had all ready made a DOF with, had a negative diplomacy relation of their believing that I was a warmonger. Even the ones that tolerate warmongers, like Arabia were flipping out! I had not moved a unit into Shaka's borders nor had a I conquered a city-state.

I never had this happen to me before is it a problem with Brave New World.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Yeah, I'll think long and hard about joining any AI war effort from now on. It seems to be an effort to trick you into getting a negative diplo penalty - including with the civ who asked you to go to war! Had this happen when Carthage asked me to go to war with England, and I agreed... and Dido hated me for it for the rest of the game!

 

[ballingforlife]

Well should the Poles be hated too? Because that's not the case

 

[VSorceress]

Something similar happened to me too but prior to the BNW expansion.

My Civ (The Mongolians) was totally BFF with Korea. For thousands of years, everything positive you could have with a civ, I had with him; no neg diplo hits. We both had a common enemy with the Aztecs. He asked me to join up the cause to help gain back the cities he lost to them in prior wars and I complied, wanting to snatch a couple of profitable cities for myself.

12 turns later, he freaking backstabs me; I was denounced by my bestie claiming that he was tired of holding in this secret animosity he had for me. Because several other Civs had liked him more than me, they denounced me too.

My Civ's social life was ruined. I was a Mongolian scorned.

As retribution, I claimed the cities the Aztecs took that Korea wanted. I then made a Peace agreement with the Aztecs, and wiped Korea off the freaking map.

 

[mabalogna]

Bribe civs to DOW others - start political strife that way if you can

 

[blackcatatonic]

Bribe civs to DOW others - start political strife that way if you can

While this would work, it dodges rather than resolves the issue.

You shouldn't get the warmonger penalty with the Civ that asked you to go to war in the first place. It's a bit of an immersion killer.

 

[Yzman]

This doesn't sound correct, likely a bug.

The warmonger hate is now triggered by taking of cities and not just declarations of war. Also, if a civ is at war with the same civ as you, they will not have warmonger hate for you.

This was posted by someone else and I can verify it with the games I have had so far. This is why I think your situtation is likely a bug or something you didn't consider.

 

[Dux1]

This was either a bug or something is missing from your story. Accepting an AI request to go to war like that typically results in a positive modifier along the lines of "We fought together against a common foe." Is it possible that the warmonger assessment came form some other instance either before or after your joint war effort?

On a side note, while I do find the new warmonger hate level indication helpful (tolerate, dislike or hate), I must say that it can be a little jarring and counter-intuitive to see a negative modifier that says "They think you are a warmongering menace to the world (they tolerate warmongers)!" I mean, I think what it means is that this is still a penalty, but it isn't as severe as it would be if they hated warmongers, but it's just an odd way of putting it.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Can confirm similiar stuff. I was playing as Dandy and Isabella was pestering me "let's attack Gandhi" a lot. The third offer I finally accepted (he settled his second city close enough to me, so it was convenient).

I eliminated Gandhi and after taking his capital and the only other city, suddenly she backstab-denounces me (that's... a stupid thing to do, everyone knows you backstabbed someone even if they didn't meet you, or so it was usually in my case. Even no major witnesses didn't get the penalty off). I see she apparently HATES warmongers and that's the main reason for her "backstabnouncement". There were no other wars on the continent by this time, so she had to hate me after the war she desired so much.

I ignore her whining, declare war on Carthage, and after I reduce Carthage to a pitiful city, I slay Spain (I left her last city to be taken by a city state to avoid big warmonger penalty, because I just met some people from the other continent by then)

 

[Cerilis]

In my recent game (Archipelago), it happened to me (as Indonesia and in early Industrial Age), that England asked me to declare war on our shared neighbour Mongolia. I was already thinking in attacking them to liberate a city state, so I took the chance and accepted with 10 turns wait time...and I really took my time to prepare, not only did I move my fleet and an assault army to the borders, I also remembered what I read here about warmonging and diplomacy penalties...so...I decided to denounce Mongolia after a few turns and made sure I befriended some of the neutral, guarded and friendly leaders by giving them small gifts and later asking for DoF. Some of them denounced Mongolia right away and even more did it later after the war started or even joined it. I finally liberated the city stare and got 2 extra cities when he surrendered without any diplomacy penalty.

 

[ballingforlife]

Yes there is one little detail I did leave out of the story. I asked Shaka not to settle with me, but that probably shouldn't cause civs to view me as a warmonger. It will just be negative with Shaka

 

[ballingforlife]

In response to DUX... I also had the fighting together modifier but it wasn't enough to counter the warmonger hate. There is a chance that they were "neutral" and not "guarded", though they eventually were "guarded". It's been a while since that game so I can't recall, but I should not have taken that diplomacy hit.

 

[ToothedBomb]

Something similair happened to me. I tried out the Zulu and was minding my own business, waiting on Civil Service, when America, Egypt and England all asked me to join them in war against the Aztecs. I had a small army and the Aztecs had settled in a spot I was eyeing, so I agreed.

I took and burned the first city, and then went on to his capital since I saw the English pushing there. They fell back and signed a peace treaty with the Aztecs. The capital was heavily damaged though, so I managed to take it. The Aztecs took it back immediately, so I gave up on that and retreated as well. Then all of a sudden everyone is angry with me. A few turns later all three declared war on me. Maybe they're jealous/angry I took the capital?

In any case it seems weird the AI gets mad when you actually participate in the war they requested you take part in.

 

[ballingforlife]

This should probably be reworked in the fall balancing I guess

 

[ptoss1]

Never seen this happen in my games. I have so many positive modifiers for ganging up on the Zulu with other civs. Portugal being the most friendly of the new batch. Like really Portugal is the ultimate friend. Not too weak and not too in your face since they don't have any UU to threaten me with.

 

[fbass]

Played as Casimir and stupidly pledged protection to a CS that Shaka had recently bullied. He hated me for this. Several turns later he declared war and took my minor city far from my capital that I just found a few turns earlier. Fine! My economy was falling, didn't want to fight a distant war and let it go, making white peace. But then some turns after peace expired, Maria of Portugal invited me to join her war against Shaka, I ofcourse obliged, and managed to retake my city and one of his on the process. Good.

However, my relation with other leaders suffered (including Maria, from Friendly to Neutral). Almost every leaders began to denounce-happy me. Seriously, they need to fix this.

 

[apocalypse105]

Allways denounce the person you are going to dow first or else you get a warmonger penalty