Yet another Culture strategy (Noble and below)

[mabellino]

I just lost out last night to an AI space race and it got me thinking about where I went wrong. My capital had over 100k, city 2 was at 65k and city 3 was at 48k grrr! Bad timing!

My first mistake was to go for all the wonders I could like in a Civ3 culture attempt. I tried to specialise cities to build great artists but all the competing GPPs from the other wonders made that difficult.

I then switched to 100% culture once I'd researched all the techs instead of stopping research much earlier.

I've compiled a list of the culture giving buildings and have attempted to group them as things to be built in 3 separate cities. This list does not include the GPP type each wonder gives as I compiled it from the appendix in the manual.

It should be noted that this strategy will probably only work on the lower difficulties as it makes heavy use of wonders and great wonders.

Founding religions is good, but absorbing them from neighbours is probably better unless you really need the shrine income. Build temples in threes then you can build the +50% culture giving religious buildings for each religion. One in each city is great

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[mabellino]

My last game has been much improved thanks to reading this forum and doing properly targeted research. Top 3 cities are within 1000cp of each other and are on track to hit the big 50 well before 1950.

Thanks to all the other posters putting their strats out there too, perhaps somebody will put all the disparate info into one super-strat and we'll all be able to beat Deity!

 

[bugmenot17]

I've also been trying to perfect a Cultural strategy on Noble. I started out playing Louis XIV, but I don't think the extra 2 culture from Creative is that useful in terms of getting to 50,000. I think I'll try a Philosophical leader next because Great Artists are an even bigger Culture boost than Wonders. (Use them as Super-Specialists so you can get the multipliers later.)

My current strategy is to go for the early religions, make sure you build the Parthenon, then go for Music/Drama and Liberalism. After that, I put 100% into Culture. You can get quite a few culture flips this way. I try to play defensive and a couple of times it's just been a matter of keeping enemies away from my three main cities during the last few turns.

 

[Rhymes]

I just finished A cultural victory with the indians on Noble: 1900 AD
Madras 53 000
Bombey 51000
Delhi 50000

I could have finished even earlier if I had thought about researching the science that leads to free speach earlier.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius]

I lost my last culture game to a space race victory (I was only about 1,000 cp short in the third city.) I have thought about what I should be doing differently. One, get switched over to culture rather than science as soon as possible. Two, great artists are very important, so you don't want to waste GP on prophets or any others. I have also wondered about the best religion strategy. In my last game I did not found a religion, and of course that kept other civs from being mad at me, about religion anyway. Perhaps wait and see what your powerful neighbors adopt and then convert to that religion. But I prefer not to get into a war if possible. I'm curious about whether the benefit of good relations with neighbors outweighs the culture benefits of shrines and such.

 

[walkerjks]

I've also been trying to perfect a Cultural strategy on Noble. I started out playing Louis XIV, but I don't think the extra 2 culture from Creative is that useful in terms of getting to 50,000. I think I'll try a Philosophical leader next because Great Artists are an even bigger Culture boost than Wonders. (Use them as Super-Specialists so you can get the multipliers later.)

I've done this analysis before in other threads, but it's worth repeating.

Cultural means you get +2 culture/turn. A typical game (on normal speed) lasts about 350 turns or so (if you wait too much longer to win someone may beat you with a spaceship). So that's not a lot of culture. But the +2/turn is modified by any culture boosters you have, like cathedrals, The Hermitage, or free speech. So in a typical game, the creative trait might actually add closer to 1000 to 1500 culture per city. That's a 2% to 3% of your needed culture.

Philosophical is a bit trickier to calculate, but can be done. While philosophical adds +100% to your gpp (great people point) production, the actual affect is lower. Let's just assume that you have a nice great specialist city that can support 6 artist specialists from 1000 AD on (that is pretty typical in my experience). That's 18 base gpp/turn. You will definitely want the National Epic in that city, so that's a +100% bonus. Also, you may operate under Pacifism, which is another +100% bonus. On top of that, you might build The Parthenon, which is another +50%. Let's assume you didn't get The Parthenon built, but otherwise 100% of your gpp is coming from this one city with Pacifism and the National Epic (+1 great artist gpp).

Someone who isn't Philosophical is generating 57 gpp/turn (19*3). Someone who is Philosophical is generating 76 gpp/turn (19*4). So the Philosophical leader is generating a healthy 33% more gpp.

But as you gain great people, the cost of the next one goes up. It starts at 100 and goes up 100 per person up to 1000 (the 10th). Then it increases by 200 per person. Presumably it goes to +300 for each at 2000, but I have never built more than 18 in a game to know. OK, so at first the cost doubles, but eventually it settles in a 10% to 20% range.

In a bad game, I'll produce 8 great artists without philosophical. In a good game, 12. With 33% more gpp, I won't produce 33% great people (due to increasing costs). But I will produce around 20% to 25% more. So figure instead of 8 or 12, a philosophical will get 10 to 15. That's an increase of 2 to 3 great artists.

2 great artists = 8000 culture (minimum - it can be somewhat more if used as super specialists). 3 great artists = 12,000 culture. Out of the 150,000 culture you need (at normal speed), that's 5.3% to 8.0% of your required culture. Slightly more if you use them correctly as super specialists.

So on that basis, philosophical is better than creative for a cultural victory. The advantage of creative is really in the early land grab. Your cities will be able to reach resources 2 tiles away without even building an obelisk. I also know that if I plop down a city 3 or 4 tiles from any other city (except capitols, though even here, you can hold your own), I will be eating their land pretty soon, giving me more resources.

 

[walkerjks]

I have also wondered about the best religion strategy. In my last game I did not found a religion, and of course that kept other civs from being mad at me, about religion anyway. Perhaps wait and see what your powerful neighbors adopt and then convert to that religion. But I prefer not to get into a war if possible. I'm curious about whether the benefit of good relations with neighbors outweighs the culture benefits of shrines and such.

At emperor where I usually play, I only manage to found religions if I have a particularly excellent game going. Sometimes I get to Philosophy first (rare, but it happens). Sometimes I get to Liberalism first, in which case I'll use the free tech to found Islam if it's still open (slightly more common). But most games I found 0 religions and I still manage to do very well.

First, I rarely spread any religions to multiple cities until around 1000 AD or so. I've found that having existing religions in a city will ****** the natural spread of religions. So I leave cities empty in the hope that other new ones spread. In my best games, I have ended up with 6 religions (1 founded, the others spread to me or a city flipped). In my worst game, I had 1 religion (still a win surprisingly enough).

I will spread a religion manually if I need it to help control unhappiness somewhere. And under all circumstances, I'll spread religions around 1000 AD. You want cathedrals and to get those you need temples built. The culture from temples and monostaries is a nice bonus, but I don't really need that to hit legendary.

As far as adopting religion, this is where it gets tricky. There is one case where I will adopt a religion, no questions asked. I normally play continents, and it's not rare to end up on a continent with 1, 2, or 3 other civs. It is not uncommon for all the civ's on your continent to adopt the same religion. In this case, it's a simple choice really - adopt the religion, enjoy the diplomatic benefits, and get the organized religion or pacifism benefits. Some of your neighbors will likely beat up on each other (ignoring the fact they have the same religion), but you should be on solid ground with them (solid enough to refuse their requests to join the war).

However, if my neighbor's are mixed in religion, I generally hold out on adopting a state religion until my specialist city is ready for full production. Often this is sometime between 1000 AD and 1500 AD. At this point, I'll often adopt a state religion merely to adopt Pacifism and enjoy the great person bonuses. That said, I have had games (the one with 6 religions floating around in my civ), where I went straight for free religion.

In any case, diplomacy management is more important than any specific benefit of religion, so I won't sacrifice diplomacy just to get organized religion. You want to be on friendly relations with everyone so when you stop advancing in tech, you don't have to worry about multiple wars. You can fight off superior units with lower tech units like cavalry, but you can't do this on a really sustained basis.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius]

So how do you decide when and why to use an artist for a great work, or as a specialist (+14?) It seems like maybe your first artist could be a specialist, but at some point (if it's assumed you want to win within 350 turns) if the specialist will generate less than 4,000 cp in the remaining period of time you should build the great work. When do you build which (specialist or great work?)

 

[bugmenot17]

Thanks walker, that was very helpful. Philosophical isn't the only alternative either. There's also Industrial to try to get some key wonders and Forge (for buildings and to build Culture later), and Spiritual (two temples is +2 culture right there). Not sure about Financial, but more money is a good part of any overall strategy -- that would be my argument for getting Shrines also (although I agree that Great Artists are much preferred).

As for Specialist vs. Great Work, I guess there'd have to be some math involved depending on how many cathedrals you had, etc. Can somebody explain how those multipliers work?

 

[walkerjks]

As for Specialist vs. Great Work, I guess there'd have to be some math involved depending on how many cathedrals you had, etc. Can somebody explain how those multipliers work?

They are simply additive. So +100% and +50% and +100% ends up being +250%.

Typical multipliers include:
- The Hermitage national wonder - +100% for 1 city
- Free Speech civic - +100% for all cities
- Cathedrals, Synogogues, and other Cathedral-like structures - +50%
- Broadcast towers - +50%
- Entertainment wonders (Broadway, Rock n Roll, Hollywood) - +50%

Generally, I stop researching well before the broadcast towers and the entertainment wonders, but if you go for them, you can really ratchet up the bonuses.

You can, of course, build 1 "cathedral" for every 3 temples you have in a religion, whether it is your state religion or not.

Note that these add to culture from any source (wonder, building, cultural slider, specialists, creative trait, etc). That's one reason financial is a pretty power ful cultural trait. In the end, +20% or so commerce can mean +10% or so culture, depending on how much culture you are getting from the cultural slider versus other sources.

Figure in a typical game you should be able to get +200% in each of your 3 cities at minimum. That's +100% for free speech in all cities, +100% in one city forThe Hermitage, and 2 cathedrals of 2 different types (6 cities required, 2 religons required) for the other two cities.

So at a minium, if you spread your bonuses out properly, a +14 cpt super specialist should be producing +42 cpt from around 1500 AD and onwards.

 

[bugmenot17]

Thanks. I think I'll try Qin Shi Huang (Financial/Industrious) for my next culture strategy. Might be appropriate that big media corporations would end up beating creative, philosophical folks in a culture war.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius]

Well, I just won a cultural victory (my 3rd one) but I still had a lower final score than most of the other civs. It seems that so far I've been unable to break the 450 turn barrier, let alone get it down to 400 or 350 turns. I just barely beat out the stupid space ship builders. **sigh**

 

[Padmewan]

All of the advice in the monarch-level thread - apply to lower levels of difficulty, though you can also mix it up a bit more and take bigger risks at Noble (e.g. fight a few wars if necessary, etc.).
To combat the problem of Wonders creating teh "wrong" GP's i created this thread.

 

[LeSphinx]

How do you do in order to specialiez your cities.
I've built a lot of wonders in only the 3 cultural cities and according to the wonder: I had something like:
35% chance of Great Prophets
50% chance of Great Engineer
15% chanve of Great Artist!!!
I want a 100% chance of Great Artist !!!!!

LeSphinx

 

[walkerjks]

I do it by not building world wonders*. 95% of my great people points come from specialists, which make it far easier to control.

Of course, if you are building enough wonders that your points are largely coming from wonders, I wouldn't worry too much about the composition of your great people. Your wonders themselves will be generating enough culture to offset the loss of a few great artists.


*There are exceptions of course. I have been known to build for The Hanging Gardens or Notre Dame or The Oracle or Sistine Chapel on occasion.

 

[LeSphinx]

Drugged_Unholy, how do you do in order to have a lot of great artist.
you just use a lot of specialist. which ratio?
thanks in advance.
LeSphinx

 

[kalder]

I may be wrong...nobody mentioned the fact that after some time culture production of buildings is doubled? I guess it is the same way as in Civ3 (after 1000 years).
It should be taken into account: early theatres and libraries could give you a significant boost...

 

[petey]

Drugged_Unholy, how do you do in order to have a lot of great artist.
you just use a lot of specialist. which ratio?
thanks in advance.
LeSphinx

Using artist specialists and wonders that increase the chance of a Great Artist are the way to do this. If you can get the Caste System civic, you can have as many specialists as you want in a city, so can add in a bunch of artists.

The %age of GPPs that went into creating the GP for each specialty determine what the odds are for getting that type of GP. For instance, if your first GP comes at 100 GPPs and 90 of those GPPs came from specialists/wonders trying to get a Great Prophet and 10 came from specialists/wonders trying to get a Great Artist, then you would have a 90% chance of getting a Great Prophet and a 10% chance for getting a Great Artist.

That being the case, if you can get a lot of GPPs going towards a Great Artist in a city, then you can add in other specialists/wonders that go towards another specialty as well to bump up your GPPs, but still have a very good chance of getting a Great Artist.

Also, if you're Industrious or have Stone, I've found that it's generally pretty easy to build Stonehenge. The GPPs for that go towards Prophet, but it's only 1/turn, so it's easy to overcome that with Artist points, and it also gives you 8 culture/turn right from the start of the game. If you can grab both that and Parthenon, then you should be pretty golden for a culture win.

 

[Grogs]

I've found on the lower levels (up to noble at least) that industrious is a pretty useful trait. With the appropriate material (usually marble or stone for the low level wonders), you've got a +150% build speed that gives quite a leg-up for that particular wonder. In my last game, playing as the Americans, I had marble but no stone. I build most of the marble-based wonders and let the rest pass by, unless there was a great engineer available. Also, as painful as it is to lose out on a wonder (I missed the Parthenon by 1 turn in my last game) it's not always bad. When I missed out on the Parthenon, I got ~600 gold back. This allowed me to crank my research up to 100% for the next 20 turns or so. At the very early stages of the game (before Alphabet) this is the only way I know of to 'build' research.

Because of the way the game is set up, you can absolutely pile on the culture in the last few turns of the game. For example, Boston went from ~18k in 1908 (turn 309) to ~53k in 1957 (turn 337). So it got ~66% of its culture in the last 9% of the game. I think the key to winning a really fast cultural victory is knowing when to turn the research off and turn the culture off. In my last game I went all the way up to Mass Media and I think it was way too far. If you've already got +500% culture in a city, adding another 100% for Hollywood and a broadcast tower can't possibly counterract all of the gold spent on research to get there. I'll definitely try an earlier switch in my next game.