[LP] Yongle vs. Unifier Qin: Who Is More Game Breaking?

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I usually don't play with any modes because the AI doesn't know what they're doing with them at all. If I do, it's usually one of some of heroes, monopolies, and secret societies. Originally secret societies was my favorite but it ruins the balance so much that I rarely use it anymore.

Clans seem to know what they're doing. At least I have trouble with them more than the actual civilizations.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I think "game breaking" is way overused when it comes to this game. Sometimes, someone rolls a perfect start, and they have a perfect map, and then they use the OP modes that just make their civ bigger... and then they declare it's "game breaking".

There is literally no civ that breaks the game, in every map, every option, and no OP game modes permitted.

"Yes, Ethiopia is game breaking if I have Highlands map, with Apocalypse mode, and Great Bath and Voidsingers."

"Yes, Portugal is game breaking on Archipelago map, with max city states, and Owls of Minerva"

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I think "game breaking" is way overused when it comes to this game. Sometimes, someone rolls a perfect start, and they have a perfect map, and then they use the OP modes that just make their civ bigger... and then they declare it's "game breaking".

There is literally no civ that breaks the game, in every map, every option, and no OP game modes permitted.

"Yes, Ethiopia is game breaking if I have Highlands map, with Apocalypse mode, and Great Bath and Voidsingers."

"Yes, Portugal is game breaking on Archipelago map, with max city states, and Owls of Minerva"

Wow it's almost like certain civs are designed to excel at certain things under certain circumstances /sarcastic

I think that the degree to which a civ benefits from their perfect conditions varies drastically, but we should probably be putting civs on a level playing field.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I started and failed a few games as qin. RNG said I didn't get many barb camps nearby but an early early free boat is pretty fun.

 

[canadamufc]

This is why some of the Youtubers get on my nerves a little bit. SUPER EXPLOIT, UNPLAYABLE GAME, OVERPOWERED, INFINITE XXX, etc etc.

It’s like me going on world builder, changing every single tile to Tundra and posting a video about how broken Russia is.

I still remember people going on about how Matthias was the next best thing and how they get their super ultra fast domination victory with him, and then they reveal they used Himiko. Yeah, fair fight.

 

[Chefofrats]

I always play with the Barbarian Clans mode. I actually abandoned my first Qin game, because I spawned on a continent crowded with City States and other civs, with almost no barbarians, and that basically meant playing as a civ with no bonus at all. In my current game there are some barbarians on my continent, and I milk them for units, but since there was room enough for their camps, there was also room for me to expand by settling, and I am playing peacefully.

There is nothing OP about the new Qin if you do not exploit his ability. But any ability is OP when exploited, so...

 

[Finvola]

I played a Qin game the other day. I didn't have barb clans on, but I think I used SS and Heroes. In any case, I spawned close to several AI. I didn't really have an abundance of barbs, with being close to other AI and some nearby CS helping to clear them. I got an early war declaration from the Zulu, but I used the barb conversion a few times to bolster my forces a bit. I think I got a few spearmen, a slinger, a warrior, and a normal horse (not a barb horse, which surprised me. I was able to upgrade him). So I think I converted barbs a total of 3 times just for that Zulu war. I didn't have a massive army, just enough to fight off the two waves of units he sent to me and then I was able to counter attack and take him out. I used the conversion ability again later just as a test. I did the Hagia Sophia thing and converted some pike and shot barbs with a levied CS unit.

I think I got a science victory with him, but I didn't have a whole lot of barb activity. I just needed a few extra units in a pinch at the start. I think it's a situational ability.

However, my Wu game was entirely the opposite. I basically had a conga line of barbs around my capital. Horse barbs, horse archers, slingers, you name it, they were there. There were two separate camps swarming it. I got religious settlements but couldn't get my settler out of the city safely. My warrior was trying to make it back home but he kept getting rushed by 2 or 3 horsemen barbs and I had to be careful getting him back home. It was crazy! I was eventually able to clear them out with two slingers and my starting warrior once he was able to make it back home in one piece. I was like "Where's Qin now when you need him?"

 

[Futumch]

I can't speak for anyone but myself - I played those game modes a couple of time when they first came out, thought "huh. interesting", then went back to standard Civ.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I can't speak for anyone but myself - I played those game modes a couple of time when they first came out, thought "huh. interesting", then went back to standard Civ.

Barb Clans and Corporations (when working) are main game-worthy, the rest I agree.

 

[tedhebert]

Myself I systematically use the shuffle trees and secret societies… barbs once in a while but don’t really like it… I restarted playing corporations since the start of the leaders pass and the fix… heroes once in a while but too OP… apocalypse tried once never looked back, and zombies never even tried it…

BTW there are interesting different takes on secret societies in the MODS… some way too OP but some pretty interesting… makes for different play than always owls or vampires

 

[pokiehl]

I only use Apocalypse Mode, Dramatic Ages, and Tech and Civic Shuffle.

Secret Societies just breaks the game too hard. The Monopoly and Corporation modes are just too fundamentally unbalanced as well, IMO.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Barbs-Tech/Civic Shuffle-Monopolies- @sukritact 's Oceans

Those are the modes I use every game.

 

[pokiehl]

Barbs-Tech/Civic Shuffle-Monopolies- @sukritact 's Oceans

Those are the modes I use every game.

I also use Sukritact’s mode! Great mod.

 

[Equilin]

In my experience, on Deity, AI will clear camps too fast for you to really get enough units off it fast (before one or more AI notices your weakness and attacks), even if you park your unit inside the camp and raid when safe. And i played inland sea, the map with more land than usual for camp spawns and this still happens. Unless you deliberately reduce the number of civs and CS ofc. Maybe Prince to Emperor will be better place for him?

 

[blackbutterfly]

I started and failed a few games as qin. RNG said I didn't get many barb camps nearby but an early early free boat is pretty fun.

I think you are right.
RNG plays a big part in whether Qin will snowball early or not. Barbs are so unpredictable.

As with any 4X snowball, it is all about your start.

I do currently play Qin with Barbarian Clans mode. The interaction is strong and unique, but not overpowered. You do lose the converting unit and if you keep the camp secured and raid, it spawns only one unit. One for one is not a great trade.
I actually feel it is more powerful with vanilla barbs.

You maybe right.

I think Unifier Qin is MORE exploitable in vanilla!
i.e. no Clans mode.

I will play the Qin vs. rest of China challenge with no barb modes. i.e. no Clans or Zombies.

 

[steveg700]

I do currently play Qin with Barbarian Clans mode. The interaction is strong and unique, but not overpowered. You do lose the converting unit and if you keep the camp secured and raid, it spawns only one unit. One for one is not a great trade.
I actually feel it is more powerful with vanilla barbs. The conversion in camp instantly disbands the camp.

I play on King, sure not Deity.

I agree with this. What can happen later in mid-game is that warriors get spent instead of promoted. Lots of logistical problems with a getting a warrior into a position where it can flip multiple barbarians. Once camps spawn things better than warriors, they're often killed in the process of trying to worm in.

Then in some instances barbarians get flipped, but they're damaged and the next geyser of barbarians the next turn kills them.

I had fun with it because it's nuanced, not overpowered.

 

[steveg700]

I only use Apocalypse Mode, Dramatic Ages, and Tech and Civic Shuffle.

Secret Societies just breaks the game too hard. The Monopoly and Corporation modes are just too fundamentally unbalanced as well, IMO.

Seems a side effect of secret societies is that the map has an excess of desert terrain (presumably to give ley lines more places to spawn). Toss in the brokenness of vampires and the AI not employing their cultist units, and it's overall a disappointment.

Monopolies I love, the AI not improving its luxuries for several eras is a bug that still isn't fixed AFAIK. .

 

[Disgustipated]

I can't speak for anyone but myself - I played those game modes a couple of time when they first came out, thought "huh. interesting", then went back to standard Civ.

I used to like monopolies, but I can see how much difference the AI is with luxuries with it off, so I won't go back. Barbarian mode also has a major drawback. At least for someone who plays huge maps like me. I can't stand the city state spam. It's outrageous. These 2 modes would be awesome if not for those 2 problems.

 

[LMT]

Is there really any mode that makes the AI better? Or at least doesn't give the human competitor an advantage?

To me, the ones that kind of fall into that description are tech/civ shuffle and barb clans. Shuffle-on makes the game a little more challenging for the human than shuffle-off. I still can't tell what effect it has on AI though.

Barb clans can make water maps a bit more challenging at first. But again, still not sure about it's effects on AI.

So to say some leader or civ is "game breaking," to me, it would need to have these superior advantages with no modes on and with almost any map/starting conditions.

 

[Melkus]

Shuffle-on makes the game a little more challenging for the human than shuffle-off. I still can't tell what effect it has on AI though.

Probably depends on the particular form of the trees. What I've noticed when shuffling is that the AI doesn't ignore government civics anymore (which are on cul-de-sacs in the original tree, so they beeline past them). So you actually see more opponents with modern - and also more diverse - governments in the late game.

The barb clan effect on the AI is --- not good, in my experience. (And they can't or don't use the special features, like recruiting units)
___

Yongle is not game-breaking in the sense that every game is a foregone conclusion (he's vulnerable early), but he undeniably has an absurd advantage if he gets a few 10+ cities - it's just math. Science, culture AND 2 Gold per pop is simply too much of a bonus. He would be a pretty strong leader with one of those.
But at least he's interesting as a slightly more challenging AI opponent (in contrast to Hammurabi, who just adds silliness)

Qin simply has a lot of variance, which is fine (apart from zombie mode, obviously).