Your strategy with Religion

[Paramecium]

First of all, I dont want to talk about the different Beliefs you can pick. Lately I am a bit unsure, how I shall handle my religion game. It is about the time you found your religion, what type of belief you pick, and especially your decisions after it, are you going to heavily spread your religion, just your own cities or are you rushing for Enhancement.

For clarification, I would suggest some schemata about the different approaches you can take:

Follower Beliefs are in my opinion separated in two parts:

• - related beliefs, which enhance your yield output depending of the amout, type or generation of
  
• - buildings, which you have to pay for, always generate and different set amout of yields, increase the MAJORITY'S religion pressure and make your city tougher to get converted
  
• Both types can be used by anyone having it in his/hers city
• - buildings can be stacked if a city switches majority religions in it, the pressure it applies is only produced for the majority religion

1. The point of the foundation of your religion:

1. Congratulation, you have won the biggest step in the religion game, you managed to found a religion. That part was changed just recently, one more religion now differs your decisions. But it is still important, how fast you manage to found, so you have the full or most of the choices.
2. After chosing your Name/Symbol, you will likely already have an idea what you will pick for founder. It most cases it is circumstances dependent, but you will pick one for sure.
3. Now comes in my opinion the more important question, will you pick a - related or a - building.

2. The point after the foundation:

• Now you have different options and it heavly depends on your circumstances like your possible own Civ treats, your generation, your picked believes and neighours:
• Spread your religion as much as possible
• Just rush your Founder Wonder
• Just spread to your own cities (and maybe city states)
• Build you possible picked as soon as possible
• Save for the next Prophet
• Wait for picking Fealty (I assume that you found faster than getting your second social policy tree opened, if you did, something went somewhere wrong ... )

3. Finishing your religion:

• Considering how things went, your might managed to enhance or even reform your religion and picked the beliefs.
• For Enhancer and Reformation, you will likely have an idea or strategy, depending on what is still available
• Followers has the same questions again, related belief or builiding, depending on what is still possible

4. Playing the religion end game:

• Will you still focus on religion, maybe you wont get much anymore, saving for Great People - purchasing
• Will you try to make or defend your religion as the World Religion, using it for diplomacy advantages and modifiers?
• Spending your as much as possible?

That is my kind of summarization of the religion play.
I am sure it is not complete, but you should agree, that you have A LOT of possibilities and decisions to make, so that I am confused sometimes.

For example, trying a 2 follower - building strategy. There are some good synergies, but I feel like, if you dont have a very good faith generation and/or picked fealty, that it is very likely, that you fall behind in the religion game and getting a reformation or just a good enhancer belief is highly circumstances depending.

So now it is up to you, what kind of decisions to you make, what are your goals and what are you achieving mostly? Im am very curious!

 

[CrazyG]

I usually get one of the population beliefs when I found, and a religious building when I enhance. I view this as a "default" approach. If you take Fealty, it can take a while to get the building and monasteries though.

If I take Fealty, I will also try to build Hagia Sophia (or Cathedral St. Basil if my neighbors take religions). Being able to enhance or reform while spending less faith can put you really far ahead.

Also, if I plan to Zealotry I will try to avoid spending much faith on other things.

 

[Recursive]

I have a bit of a strange strategy, which I haven't tested at higher difficulties yet:

1) Rush a religion from the start of the game, build Shrines first in every city etc;

2) Pick a related belief (I usually go for Mastery if it's available, making GP more useful is a game-long advantage;

3) Rush my second Great Prophet as soon as possible to enhance;

4) Pick a building (Mandirs and Orders are my favorites recently, stopping GP assassination in all cities is powerful, as is extra XP, and I want to deny my opponents at least one of these);

5) Try to build Cathedral of St. Basil, spending Faith on the building I bought in the meantime and spreading to my own cities (if not, delay the strategy below until I have my wonder);

6) Pick my reformation belief;

Once I have all the beliefs I want, I then try to build the buildings from every religion in every city by moving Missionaries and Inquisitors around, and welcome the spread of others' religion provided they have buildings I can use. I keep an Inquisitor in my capital to make sure my own religion can't be hurt by rival Prophets/Missionaries, and once I have the buildings I want, murder all the hereti-I mean, cleanse the cities of heathen faiths to maximize the benefits of my own religion.

Not sure if it would work at a higher difficulty, and it does involve a lot of micromanaging.

 

[Owlbebach]

Not sure if it would work at a higher difficulty, and it does involve a lot of micromanaging.

It will not, i tried it. Not enough faith. And even if you have enough faith - you can get a better use of it (for example with Glory of God)

 

[Recursive]

It will not, i tried it. Not enough faith. And even if you have enough faith - you can get a better use of it (for example with Glory of God)

Ah, makes sense. Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[CrazyG]

Here is a combination I really like (especially for progress)

Take Council of Elders and spend all your faith on missionaries. Take Theology as your first medieval tech and build the Hagia Sophia very quickly (use the production and science of Elders to speed this up). You will usually get it, even on Deity.

At that point, your religion will have spread out pretty well and enhanced quickly, giving you the best of both worlds. It works great for progress because you don't really need any of the early game wonders and Elders aligns with your bonus yields. Your religion will be far ahead of most others, and you have the option for a fast grand temple too. You have options for follower beliefs, but normally I will take either or per followers, don't take a building.

Generally this plays into a diplomatic victory pretty well, as you can probably pick up some votes by spreading your religion enough. The main drawback is you are delaying steel, physics and chivalry, which can make war more difficult.

 

[Txurce]

Here is a combination I really like (especially for progress)

Take Council of Elders and spend all your faith on missionaries. Take Theology as your first medieval tech and build the Hagia Sophia very quickly (use the production and science of Elders to speed this up). You will usually get it, even on Deity.

At that point, your religion will have spread out pretty well and enhanced quickly, giving you the best of both worlds. It works great for progress because you don't really need any of the early game wonders and Elders aligns with your bonus yields. Your religion will be far ahead of most others, and you have the option for a fast grand temple too. You have options for follower beliefs, but normally I will take either or per followers, don't take a building.

Generally this plays into a diplomatic victory pretty well, as you can probably pick up some votes by spreading your religion enough. The main drawback is you are delaying steel, physics and chivalry, which can make war more difficult.

This is the routine I almost always employ, except I go with culture per followers instead of production or science. With Progress I figured that would be where I'd be most likely to fall behind, and have a hard time catching up. How does that differ for you?

 

[CrazyG]

This is the routine I almost always employ, except I go with culture per followers instead of production or science. With Progress I figured that would be where I'd be most likely to fall behind, and have a hard time catching up. How does that differ for you?

My logic is that if I have progress, production is culture, and science is culture (because bonus yields). In a tough war, I think the production or science would help more. Its also potentially building the Hagia 1 or 2 turns earlier, which can be a big deal. Culture per follower isn't wrong by any means, if I was lagging in culture I would definitely consider it.

 

[Owlbebach]

Dunno my last 5 or 6 games with religion i was always taking Inspiration c5culture: per 2 followers). It just seems so much stronger than anything else

 

[KmkzKyo]

Hi there, this seems interesting. I'll write some of my thoughts below. I play on immortal, since I feel deity is too strict in viable strategies.

For the pantheon pick, it really depends on the start condition/civ's characteristics. My only "default mode" here is Goddess of Beauty when going Tradition; God of the Sea if planning on maritime Authority. After picking a pantheon, I stop to take a look on what I'm planning to do with faith. My options usually are:
A) Purchasing units (usually with Authority)
B) Purchasing great people (usually with Tradition)
C) Spreading the hell out of my religion (usually with Progress)

For the founder belief, Hero Worship is my choice for option A;
Divine Inheritance is pretty solid combined with option B;
Council of Elders or Theocratic Rule works well option C and are also my default if someone picks the founders I wanted before me.

For followers beliefs, things can go wild, I fell a lot of them are viable. In my opinion, the key here is finding strong combinations and/or fixing a weakness in your yields. For example, let's say I fell I will lack gold and won't go Statecraft. Well, Thrift might be my thing here. Or if I'm lagging in culture/science, Inspiration/Scholarship are really nice. Cooperation/Diligence are my picks if nothing seems wrong with my yields.

In addition, it is worth saying that Synagogues goes really well with Theocratic Rule on a wide empire; that Stupas are strong for cultural victory; that Mandirs are pretty decent with Tradition; Orders helps a lot with aggressive neighbours.

I never get Asceticism, Cathedrals, Churches nor Pagodas and also I don't like Mastery - I think these are weaker than any other option.
Special mention: I must have a mosque in my capital when playing option B, it's possible to get one via University of Sankore but if I miss it, then I get it as a follower belief.

Normally, I go for a fast enhancing to get good beliefs.
Zealotry is a must-get if I'm playing option A, for obvious reasons;
Resilience is really strong with option B;
Clericalism or Evangelism for option C.

If I can get to reformation belief then I know the game is going well for me. My picks are:
Crusader Spirit for option A;
Knowledge Through Devotion for option B;
Nothing in special for option C. Here I need to look at my possible win conditions and what works with them, e.g Sacred Sites is viable if I got double buildings-related follower beliefs and want a cultural victory.

One World, One Religion is almost a must if I plan on a diplomatic victory in any case I can think of.
Defender of the Faith is pretty solid if I think I'll be attacked a lot.

Worth mentioning that I think Faith of the Masses, Jesuit Education, Global Commandments and To the Glory of God are just plain bad, maybe some specific civ can make them work, but again, I think there are better options for each of these beliefs.

These are just my thoughts, I can be wrong in any of those so don't hold me against it

 

[Txurce]

Great first post. I agreed with you down the line, on a uniformly descending curve.

By the time I got to Jesuit Ed and TtGoG being "just plain bad," I started to wonder how many times you've chosen either.

 

[CrazyG]

Worth mentioning that I think Faith of the Masses, Jesuit Education, Global Commandments and To the Glory of God are just plain bad, maybe some specific civ can make them work, but again, I think there are better options for each of these beliefs.

I really agreed with your post for a while. Then I read this....................
I think Faith of the Masses is pretty bad. Just side by side with Jesuit, its seems worse in many ways.
Jesuit Education is +5 science on three already good science buildings. That alone is a big deal. You won't faith purchase that many, but its good without.
Global Commandments is something I don't ever take but it seems alright.
To the Glory of God is amazing. Its an extra great person every 5 turns for the rest of the game. With Sainthood you won't ever run out of faith to buy them. In terms of yields if you have any great person synergy at all its going to earn a ton.

Dunno my last 5 or 6 games with religion i was always taking Inspiration c5culture: per 2 followers). It just seems so much stronger than anything else

If you always take inspiration, how do you know its better or worse than anything else? It is a really good belief but if you take it every single game you are making a mistake in my opinion.

 

[KmkzKyo]

Great first post. I agreed with you down the line, on a uniformly descending curve.

By the time I got to Jesuit Ed and TtGoG being "just plain bad," I started to wonder how many times you've chosen either.

I don't consider them bad per se, but whenever they seem fit there's another who does the job better. They seem... out of place? I mean, low contribuition to the first win condition.
My logic follows the fact that faith can't be spent twice, so I build the religion around one possibility of purchase only, maximizing the sinergies along the path.
When I do that, I always either want more units (military or missionaries) or more great people.
FotM and JE are basically a converter of faith into production, and not a very efficient one imo. For Tradition, +15*numcities science or culture is almost nothing. For Authority, I can't justify using faith to get a building opposed to spending it directly in my win condition via Zealotry. I'd only pick them if I'm Progress and I don't benefit anymore from spreading religion which almost never happens to me.

TtGoG could work for a tall empire pursuiting cultural victory, but in this scenario Knowledge fits better since it's implied you already have lots of GP improvements and great works. Maybe if I'm Arabia I'd pick TtGoG.

 

[chicorbeef]

I really love Religion in Vox Populi, there are just so many good combos.

I have a couple of Tradition combos. One is the Ceremonial Burial + Sainthood +TGOG combo that lets you create a loop of Great People and get a ton of Culture while doing so. Arabia, Austria, etc. are good civs for this combo. It's really good at Culture Victories in particular. As CrazyG said, you can create an infinite loop of Great People purchases with this combo of beliefs.

I also like going Resilience + Knowledge Through Devotion, particularly as civs like India or Korea. Mastery + Divine Inheritance is a solid combo-sometimes I like to go two into Artistry (into the Great Works yields policy +Specialist culture policy) and then go Statecraft (I like doing this as India, Morocco or Korea), and for that, Mastery + Divine Inheritance tends to work well for me.

I don't pick Cathedrals as anyone but India. I picked Churches once (after they were given the +2 culture buff) and still found them very underwhelming. Asceticism is very situational but it has its uses. I've never tried Pagodas but it seems like it could be ok-it does give Golden Ages points unlike most other beliefs.

Stupas used to be a favorite of mine for wide Culture Victory (as Polynesia or something) but now that the tourism penalty for Wide has grown so large I don't pick it.

Cooperation is awesome as Spain, I tried it with India once and it was all right but I can't think of too many scenarios where it's a truly strong belief. Perhaps Asceticism + Cooperation, particularly for a civ like Babylon.

I like Council of Elders for domination where I spread my religion like a madman, I like using it also to rush Oracle to propel myself ahead.

I also like picking Orders as Zulu because Barracks + Armory + Order gives 3 promotions.

 

[ElliotS]

FotM and JE are basically a converter of faith into production, and not a very efficient one imo.

This is where you're wrong. You get them for the bonuses to the buildings, not the ability to buy them. A progress empire with JE gets 15 science per city. That's the same as 30 followers in a city with the science follower belief. That's a lot. If you have a modest 8 cities that's 120 science per turn. Even if you save no hammers it's worth it.

 

[KmkzKyo]

You are definitely right. But it's worth noting thats +15 only after Research Labs in every city. If you get reformation belief with St. Basil its fairer to consider it +5 science/city than +15.
Later, when producing 2000+ science, does it really matter that extra 10 per city? To me that seems rather weak. Playable, but underwhelming. When playing progress, diplomatic victory seems rather default to me, except for tourism based civs which can go for cultural. In that case, I'd pick One World One Religion over JE 100% of times.
If I'm trying domination or science, Progress just seems wrong. Authority really shines here since the buff to Imperialism.

 

[chicorbeef]

You are definitely right. But it's worth noting thats +15 only after Research Labs in every city. If you get reformation belief with St. Basil its fairer to consider it +5 science/city than +15.
Later, when producing 2000+ science, does it really matter that extra 10 per city? To me that seems rather weak. Playable, but underwhelming. When playing progress, diplomatic victory seems rather default to me, except for tourism based civs which can go for cultural. In that case, I'd pick One World One Religion over JE 100% of times.
If I'm trying domination or science, Progress just seems wrong. Authority really shines here since the buff to Imperialism.

It takes quite some time to get to 2000+ Science, I've never gotten there before the late Modern/Atomic Era, and even then, +15 science per city is not negligible. Getting +10 Science per city in Industrial Era is very valuable to me, it can be like +25% of your science then. Science snowballs just like every other yield in the game. Also if you get this in conjunction with Scholasticism it's quite beastly.

Progress domination is actually quite viable. I have a game going on as Spain on Deity where I am doing just that. You turtle and focus on infrastructure in Ancient/Classical and rush Medieval for powerful units. Progress science is also quite nice (have you noticed just how much Progress benefits off science with its era-scaling culture bonuses? Also Progress gets science off researching techs, that should be an obvious synergy). Progress can play Science just fine if you have the right synergies, it's the most versatile tree in my experience. I do often feel the need to go for Scholasticism as Progress though, but that's fine.

 

[ElliotS]

You are definitely right. But it's worth noting thats +15 only after Research Labs in every city. If you get reformation belief with St. Basil its fairer to consider it +5 science/city than +15.
Later, when producing 2000+ science, does it really matter that extra 10 per city? To me that seems rather weak. Playable, but underwhelming. When playing progress, diplomatic victory seems rather default to me, except for tourism based civs which can go for cultural. In that case, I'd pick One World One Religion over JE 100% of times.
If I'm trying domination or science, Progress just seems wrong. Authority really shines here since the buff to Imperialism.

As chicorbeef mentioned Progress is very flexible, and you should probably be a bit more open to what you want to get out of a branch.

Tradition tends to be the best branch in a 1v1, just because it gets more faster. I've crushed with progress domination, and won wide science many times.

But yeah 10 science per city in industrial is really good. I wouldn't sneer at it.

 

[Owlbebach]

Jesuit Education is +5 science on three already good science buildings. That alone is a big deal. You won't faith purchase that many, but its good without.

I was thinking that +5/+5 on Jesuit / Masses was removed. I was suggestin it some time ago and received lots of likes. I think they shall cost less faith and be without +5

If you always take inspiration, how do you know its better or worse than anything else? It is a really good belief but if you take it every single game you are making a mistake in my opinion.

Well this is a good poin, though every time i think of this - culture always seems like a better move. I mean even if you are Tradition - will those +3 per city fix you production problem? Probably not, maybe a little bit. And 3 per city is a huge deal, this really speeds up you policies that are going to fix everything else. And more into the late game it is even more important: around Industrial, when your city has 20 having +8 in it is by far better than having +8 (even if you compare city yields - such city will usually have ~60 per turn and ~25 per turn).
Culture is still the most scarce and important yield in the game. I think of it this way: if i have BIG EXCESS of - i'll fix all other problems quite soon; if i have BIG EXCESS of - i will have a lot of techs, but will not be able to use them; If i have BIG EXCESS of - i will run out of usefel stuff to build. Culture sort of has lowest inflation rate - it does not depreciate when you have a lot of it. This is why i was thinking to make Inspiration 1 per 3 followers, what do you think, will it be to weak?

 

[Owlbebach]

TtGoG could work for a tall empire pursuiting cultural victory, but in this scenario Knowledge fits better since it's implied you already have lots of GP improvements and great works.

This is absolutely wrong. Real power of tGoG is Historic Events that you get for your Great People. They are your main source of Tourism! It might be unobvious, but late into the game it is better to purchase 2 Great Generals instead of 1 Great Artist simply because of Historic Events.

does it really matter that extra 10 per city? To me that seems rather weak. Playable, but underwhelming.

This is actually HUGE. Your mistake is that you compare it with your total Science output, and you should compare it with other players. The real power of it is that you get 10 science MORE than anyone else (per cuty per turn). As i mentioned above, playing on Deity i foind it so strong for scientific victory that i suggest to remove it and reduce faith purchase costs for Universities/Museums etc

If I'm trying domination or science, Progress just seems wrong. Authority really shines here since the buff to Imperialism.

It still seems to me that Progress >> Fealty(religion)/Statecraft(no religion) >> Rationalism is the best way for Scientific Victory unless you go SV after conquering 3 of your neighbours. Also as @chicorbeef mentioned, Progress is awesome for mid-game wars if you feel strong there (for example Spain with its Conquistadors or India with Elephants)