Your strategy with Religion

[KmkzKyo]

Real power of tGoG is Historic Events that you get for your Great People.

Does Historic Events scale with your city number or does it scale with your tourism output? If its the former, you may be right then. If it grows with tourism, I really think its real power is in a Tradition scenario, exactly the same where Knowledge thrives.

It still seems to me that Progress >> Fealty(religion)/Statecraft(no religion) >> Rationalism is the best way for Scientific Victory unless you go SV after conquering 3 of your neighbours.

If you already got Progress & Statecraft I'd say getting Industry and winnning diplomatic is so strong I can't justify getting Rationalism to battle for the science lead.
Playing science catchup is too viable with P&S to let it pass, with spies, trade routes and correct World Congress management.
Progress and Fealty for science victory seems good with the right civ though, maybe India or another growth based civ? Idk :/

Also as @chicorbeef mentioned, Progress is awesome for mid-game wars if you feel strong there (for example Spain with its Conquistadors or India with Elephants)

Everytime I went for a domination victory as Progress player I had wonder if it wouldn't be better if I had got Authority. Remember you forfeit ALL the bonus from fighting, the extra culture and science from kills and cities conquest, troops don't heal on kill, full maintenance cost for the army, no conscripts nor extra 10% from Honor, no Alhambra and the bonuses that come with it. At this point might as well not fight for domination, production seems better spent with diplomatic units or buldings when playing Progress. The key to what you've mentioned as mid-game wars is simply fighting when the UU is available, not the choice of Progress as a starter policy, which is different of battling for domination. And I stand by my choice of Crusader Spirit as the best reformation belief for domination victory.

 

[Owlbebach]

Does Historic Events scale with your city number or does it scale with your tourism output? If its the former, you may be right then. If it grows with tourism, I really think its real power is in a Tradition scenario, exactly the same where Knowledge thrives.

It grows with your Tourism output and then all % bonuses for each civ are applied to it (so that if HE gives 400 and you have +20% with civ1 and +40% with civ2 then you get 480 against civ1 and 560 against civ2).
I do understand Knowledge for Tourism if you play like i played for America in my Photojournal (idea was to get Tourism from Great Prophets), otherwise i don't understand it, it gives you nothing touristic, just some yields on Great Improvements and Great Works. Even Archaeologists are a useless for Tourism cause it is better to spend faith on something else (e.g. Great Engeneer).
Tradition is a default scenario for Tourism, therfore its real power is of course with Tradition. I can see only one civ that play Tourism without Tradition (Austria).

If you already got Progress & Statecraft I'd say getting Industry and winnning diplomatic is so strong I can't justify getting Rationalism to battle for the science lead.

It depends. What you said is absolutely right, but i can see other option cause +1 per specialist is very strong. I can see something like Korea Progress into Statecraft into Rationalism with Mastery. However i agree that Science and Diplo victories are similar to each other, especially for the first half of the game.

mid-game wars is simply fighting when the UU is available, not the choice of Progress as a starter policy, which is different of battling for domination.

Agree, i was not saying about Domination. Does anyone except ElliotS play it? It is so boring, isn't it? I meant something like one of my India games where i took Progress into Fealty, got to Naga Malas and acquired 1 vassal and 4 great puppets using them. Then i stopped and won via Science.

 

[KmkzKyo]

I do understand Knowledge for Tourism if you play like i played for America in my Photojournal (idea was to get Tourism from Great Prophets), otherwise i don't understand it, it gives you nothing touristic, just some yields on Great Improvements and Great Works.

Yup, that's it. Tradition into Artistry, religion with Divine Inheritance + Stupas + Another building + Resilience + Knowledge from St. Basil, Mosque from University of Sankore, get as many artifacts as possible, start permanent Golden Age, finish with Freedom. Too stronk.
I did this as India with Veneration in place of second bulding, just to see how many Prophets I could get. It was obscene. Mind you I played with events on and Extra Wonders, and picked extra Great Prophets whenever possible.

Even Archaeologists are a useless for Tourism cause it is better to spend faith on something else

Yeah, this ability sucks, I've never bought a Archaeologist with it... maybe I would if this triggered a WE

 

[CrazyG]

Well this is a good poin, though every time i think of this - culture always seems like a better move. I mean even if you are Tradition - will those +3 per city fix you production problem? Probably not, maybe a little bit. And 3 per city is a huge deal, this really speeds up you policies that are going to fix everything else. And more into the late game it is even more important: around Industrial, when your city has 20 having +8 in it is by far better than having +8 (even if you compare city yields - such city will usually have ~60 per turn and ~25 per turn).
Culture is still the most scarce and important yield in the game. I think of it this way: if i have BIG EXCESS of - i'll fix all other problems quite soon; if i have BIG EXCESS of - i will have a lot of techs, but will not be able to use them; If i have BIG EXCESS of - i will run out of usefel stuff to build. Culture sort of has lowest inflation rate - it does not depreciate when you have a lot of it. This is why i was thinking to make Inspiration 1 per 3 followers, what do you think, will it be to weak?

I always strongly consider getting whatever yield gives me bonus yields. If I'm progress, those hammers give me food and culture too. That science is culture. For authority, yea the culture is really good and I take it almost every time. For tradition, I need hammers pretty much always and I don't really consider culture per followers. Cooperation and food for followers were good until growing became suicidal this patch. Science can be nice because it sometimes secures extra wonders. If having extra hammers or science means I build wonders a few turns earlier, that strikes me as very high impact. The difference between building Tower of Pisa or Hagia Sophia and not is really important. I very distinctly remember a game that I lost in the information era where I missed both Hanging Gardens and Porcelain Tower by a tiny amount, and I bet I would have won if I managed to build either. They are a big deal for tradition.

IDK how good it would be at 1 per 3 (I seem to disagree with most people here, but culture is far less important to me than other yields late game). I would like to see it have a lower cap than the others for sure though. I hadn't though about the culture would scale your historic events up, that is really impactful.

Does Historic Events scale with your city number or does it scale with your tourism output? If its the former, you may be right then. If it grows with tourism, I really think its real power is in a Tradition scenario, exactly the same where Knowledge thrives.

I take this belief with progress very often, its very useful for any victory.

Let's let at yields really quick though. You get an extra great person every 5 turns (with sainthood you easily go infinite with faith). Count all your sources of yields and remember that you earn those every 5 turns. In particular, tradition's golden age points has a big impact, usually they + 1 faith bought artist to golden age is enough to go infinite in my games (I'm skipping Chichen Itza to build something like the Leaning Tower instead).

Then look at the great people themselves.
Engineers=probably the best great people. If you don't have tradition this belief is giving you a wonder (possibly two).
Writers= great works or culture bombs. Amazing high impact unit, the impact of 2-3 extra writers cannot be understated.
Generals= a free citadel. Weaker than the others but still useful.
Artists= described above. Helps you finish themeing or brings golden ages.
Diplomats= These are actually very useful if you went Fealty, but then realize you can win via diplomacy.
Musicians= if you didn't take Artistry, they will speed up your win
Admirals= gold and happiness if you grab luxuries.
Merchants= infinite WLTKD. Great synergy with Fealty and many other beliefs. Move your specialists off gold to something more powerful.
Scientists= being able to boom science on demand is useful for any strategy. Pick a wonder, a weapon, a building, or an effect like radio's tourism surge and unlock it 5 turns earlier.

Tourism Victory: Historic events scale with culture and tourism output. I think Knowledge is trash in all scenarios and TtGoG is just always superior. I'm pretty sure TtGoG has more tourism, especially if you factor in the extra great works you can make. You can faith buy artists and musicians (normally you have to choose). A work of art, music, or writing on demand is worth a lot of tourism; themeing bonuses are powerful. Being able to get scientists as need is useful too.

Diplomatic Victory: Amazing synergy with Freedom's Arsenal of Democracy tenet. Gives you a way to get extra great diplomats if you didn't take statecraft (sometimes plans change mid-game).

Scientific Victory: You will already take rationalism for scientists, but having access to more golden age via artists, faster ideologies via writers, longer WLTKD from merchants (synagogues anyone?), or extra engineers is still really valuable.

All victories can appreciate extra defensive options, supply, or luxuries from generals and admirals.

 

[Stalker0]

Yup, that's it. Tradition into Artistry, religion with Divine Inheritance + Stupas + Another building + Resilience + Knowledge from St. Basil, Mosque from University of Sankore, get as many artifacts as possible, start permanent Golden Age, finish with Freedom. Too stronk.
I did this as India with Veneration in place of second bulding, just to see how many Prophets I could get. It was obscene. Mind you I played with events on and Extra Wonders, and picked extra Great Prophets whenever possible.


Yeah, this ability sucks, I've never bought a Archaeologist with it... maybe I would if this triggered a WE

I think the archeologist faith was reduced. I used it a lot In my last game. I insta bought 10 archeologists the second I had the tech. Completely dominated the artifact race before the AI could blink

 

[chicorbeef]

Everytime I went for a domination victory as Progress player I had wonder if it wouldn't be better if I had got Authority. Remember you forfeit ALL the bonus from fighting, the extra culture and science from kills and cities conquest, troops don't heal on kill, full maintenance cost for the army, no conscripts nor extra 10% from Honor, no Alhambra and the bonuses that come with it. At this point might as well not fight for domination, production seems better spent with diplomatic units or buldings when playing Progress. The key to what you've mentioned as mid-game wars is simply fighting when the UU is available, not the choice of Progress as a starter policy, which is different of battling for domination. And I stand by my choice of Crusader Spirit as the best reformation belief for domination victory.

In my Spain game, I used Progress to rush Conquistadors and I was attacking my enemy with a squad of Conquistadors by Turn 130 on Deity. Conquistadors vs. Bowmen and a 30 strength capital are good odds-why do I need anything else? I kind of doubt that Authority can rush Medieval and assemble an army so quickly without fighting and have such a strong economy at the same time. Progress also becomes a yield machine starting in Medieval where all your scaling bonuses are doubled. My economy is in tip-top shape and I have no happiness problems despite settling 10 cities.

If you like healing on kills and culture and science on kills you can always cherry pick and combine it with pieces of Fealty. If your infrastructure is doing particularly well you could even snag Imperium and Nobility at the same time for the Culture/Science on city capture.

Progress's role is that it's possible to not fight at all in the Ancient/Classical and still be in a strong position to rush your neighbours quickly. If you decide to transition into other playstyles later you can do so as well. Authority tends to fall right off a cliff if you stop fighting or don't fight early on and I think Progress --> Fealty---> Authority (not finishing either Fealty or Authority) is viable for domination just as Progress ---> Fealty and Progress --->Statecraft (like with Greece) or even Progress ---> Artistry (Persia).

I also picked Crusader Spirit/Zealotry. Those aren't Authority exclusive.

 

[CrazyG]

After some thought and analysis in game (I loaded a save and picked culture instead of science), I'm actually coming around to agree about inspiration being the best follower belief. I overlooked that it does apply to historic events, and it increase happiness substantially early on. For most of the classical era it was worth an entire happiness in every city I had but the capital. +6 happiness alone would be a decent belief.

 

[Rafs]

Personally, pantheons are always situational for me (depends on whats left to pick and what resources/civ I'm playing), but I usually go for something that gives me unless I have a civ that helps with that, then I try to get more .
Followers:
First if england is present I'll take mandirs unless I can crush her fast, as the assasinations are infuriating for me and there isn't much I can do about it. Afterwards, I usually try to get Inspiration, per citizen, very strong as culture sources are scarce on wide empires outside of guilds, to help mend my hapiness problems with boredeom and border growth, and if its taken I usually pick orders/production buildings.
If I don't plan on spreading to my neighbors I might be tempted to take hammers per citizen too.
Enhancers I'll usualy pick ritual (just so AI doesn't get it), unless I have very good faith production, then I'll pick zealotry.
For reformation, I usually like defender of faith ( 3 culture 1 faith on defensive buildings, and extra combat strenght when fighting on my lands) because it helps my culture and provides a really solid fighting power, JE is good if the science powerhouses haven't been crippled when you reform, and crusader spirit if I know I'm going on a conquering spree, as the faith/GA helps keeping up conversion in new cities.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm actually coming around to agree about inspiration being the best follower belief.

In general I find the culture better than the science and gold. But that said...not always. There are playstyles that I value the other yields....which I think is as much balance as we are going to get with such an array of diverse beliefs.

 

[Paramecium]

Thanks guys for your replies!

• Under my point of "Rushing" I had those two Key Wonders, "Haggia Sophia" and "St. Basil's Church" in mind, maybe I should spell it out.
• The combined strategy of choicing "Council of Elders" and massive spread to rush at least one, better both, wonder(s), I used it a couple of times and it is a really good strategy.
• To succeed with it, it is good to have a strong - production (especially if you are up against other nearby religions) and "Inspiration" or the save pick "Veneration"
• The common approach on Religions seems to be to pick a - related belief and only conditionally a - building
• Successfull Religion Strategies including a douple follower belief with - buildings seems to be rare
• My personal observations is still that "Inspiration" as first pick is still a very good choice
• Aztecs are now insanly back on the religion race!

 

[Owlbebach]

I kinda think that there is one thing that is bit overpowered but i'm not sure how to nerf it. It is "capturing Holy City of a decently spreaded religion when you didn't found yourself". Thing is that if you do not foung your own religion - you need only one prophet to enhance and since it is your first prophet - it will be cheap.

I'm not really sure if anything can and should be done, but i'm sure that if AI manages to found more or less powerfull religion and then you capture him before he enhanced it - you are pretty much guaranteed to have a very powerfull religion that will really push you ahead of everyone. You can enchance much faster thus you are guaranteed to take at least one goon follower belief and good enhancer belief and as of now most of founders seem to be okay for aggressive playstyle. You can really save up ~1200-1300 faith by planning this. And you CAN plan this if you have someone like Haile as your neighbour or just see that AI took a good pantheon

 

[CppMaster]

I kinda think that there is one thing that is bit overpowered but i'm not sure how to nerf it. It is "capturing Holy City of a decently spreaded religion when you didn't found yourself". Thing is that if you do not foung your own religion - you need only one prophet to enhance and since it is your first prophet - it will be cheap.

I'm not really sure if anything can and should be done, but i'm sure that if AI manages to found more or less powerfull religion and then you capture him before he enhanced it - you are pretty much guaranteed to have a very powerfull religion that will really push you ahead of everyone. You can enchance much faster thus you are guaranteed to take at least one goon follower belief and good enhancer belief and as of now most of founders seem to be okay for aggressive playstyle. You can really save up ~1200-1300 faith by planning this. And you CAN plan this if you have someone like Haile as your neighbour or just see that AI took a good pantheon

Capturing a holy city when you don't have a religion could increase Great Prophet faith cost, but, like you said, maybe it shouldn't be changed. Capital is usually a holy city, so it's a nice reward for something that could be challenging.

 

[Owlbebach]

Capturing a holy city when you don't have a religion could increase Great Prophet faith cost, but, like you said, maybe it shouldn't be changed. Capital is usually a holy city, so it's a nice reward for something that could be challenging.

I mean it appears to me that it is by far the most effective strategy. Strangely it is much more beneficial than capturing Holy City when you already have a religion. And on average you should have 2 religions to choose from and you can prepare and time your attack.