Zav1, RaR, Cultural 25k
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Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Btw, you are aware the MapFinder utility works with RaR (or any other scenario)? Cannot request for the specific bonus resources, but 1 Floodplain+1 Hill + 1 River + 1 Coast will work.
Another interesting option is the Iroquois. No cheap buildings, but check out the UU! Also as AGR and EXP can see all food boni at the beginning of the game, so city can be placed optimally. Rangers for hut-popping (essential early techs and tribes so 25K city doesn't need to build any).
I've got a very interesting Diety game going with them. Timed Oracle for turn after Writing and got Caste and Urban via pointy stick. Oracel chose Dyna and Philo, then free Philo gave me triple monopoly. Capital is on hill with cow and wheat. Got my second and third cities via huts.
I've got a very interesting Diety game going with them. Timed Oracle for turn after Writing and got Caste and Urban via pointy stick. Oracel chose Dyna and Philo, then free Philo gave me triple monopoly. Capital is on hill with cow and wheat. Got my second and third cities via huts.
Comparing LK threads to some others on initial, and continuing, level of discussion, I suspect the lack thereof could account for some measure of the recent struggles.
Compare T_McC in the Romeo3 thread, for instance. For a 25K game, the turns before 1000BC are the most important ones (as LK91 learned), we'd better make sure to get them right. If I post a turnlong, I will consider the game started, and want to make sure we understand what we've got.
Moscow will max pop at 5 until Dyna (quite a ways to go on that, I've played 20 turns).
This also means it will grow painfully slowly even at 4 (10 turns w/granary). My plan is to use Moscow for units (it has the only barracks) and the odd clan, and to build the 25K city in range of the Elephants and Coffee (using the Camel as necessary). We can join our native worker and another that we can skim from Moscow to make that city instantly productive. That city will pull 8 extra food under Dyna, so can get huge and productive.
Once I get OK's from everyone on this plan (or a better one), we can start (I'll post the turnlog). Else we need to try another.
Compare T_McC in the Romeo3 thread, for instance. For a 25K game, the turns before 1000BC are the most important ones (as LK91 learned), we'd better make sure to get them right. If I post a turnlong, I will consider the game started, and want to make sure we understand what we've got.
Moscow will max pop at 5 until Dyna (quite a ways to go on that, I've played 20 turns).
This also means it will grow painfully slowly even at 4 (10 turns w/granary). My plan is to use Moscow for units (it has the only barracks) and the odd clan, and to build the 25K city in range of the Elephants and Coffee (using the Camel as necessary). We can join our native worker and another that we can skim from Moscow to make that city instantly productive. That city will pull 8 extra food under Dyna, so can get huge and productive.
Once I get OK's from everyone on this plan (or a better one), we can start (I'll post the turnlog). Else we need to try another.
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A lot of the problems are more to due the insane games being played. Even playing RaR is an unknown for a lot of the crew.
I vote for another. That new city will lack river squares. A 25K city should be river strong to take advantage of all science buildings in it. That would be a horrid city, and it will have some corruption. I vote reroll...
Horrid?
Whatever. I'm talking about one tile NE of the Camel. It will have plenty of river, the incense, elephant, and camel will all provide extra gold, and anyway, the main income source will be the obscene tourism it can generate. In Dyna, it can make 20 base shields without irrigation! this inclues mining, of course, but if we trigger our GA ASAP after revolt, we should be able to score nearly all the AA wonders.
See Romeo3 for a game like this done right.
Whatever. I'm talking about one tile NE of the Camel. It will have plenty of river, the incense, elephant, and camel will all provide extra gold, and anyway, the main income source will be the obscene tourism it can generate. In Dyna, it can make 20 base shields without irrigation! this inclues mining, of course, but if we trigger our GA ASAP after revolt, we should be able to score nearly all the AA wonders.
See Romeo3 for a game like this done right.
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That answers the confusion from when I looked. I never even thought of totally choking the capitol to get the 25K city. I thought you meant the tile North of the one you proposed.Bezhukov said:
Would we want to eventually move the capitol? That 25K city would be very hard pressed for large size while competing with the capitol so heavily. That would very much effect my opinion on this start.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
The Russian start looks great, no question. But considering you can see several resources not visible from the start, that feels a bit like cheating, if you ask me.
Incense is extremely important for 25k, btw. Makes the Arabs the very best choice, or Tibet, if you happen to get a bonus that is always visible. Russia is good, but mostly for the SGLs.
Incense is extremely important for 25k, btw. Makes the Arabs the very best choice, or Tibet, if you happen to get a bonus that is always visible. Russia is good, but mostly for the SGLs.
The reason we can see the resources is that we chose an expansionist civ (this game is only 20 turns old) with the benefits it offers (early contacts, techs from huts, seeing resources), at the expense of other trait benefits. This is not cheating. I also took valuable time to build some units in Moscow to avoid the early AI sneak instead of doing a farmer's/ranger gambit and restarting when it doesn't work.
A big plus to having the 25K city not be the capitol is the ability to build FP, SP, and WP there, the garden culture gives a huge boost.
Moscow will not be choked for quite a while. It can work the Pig and go on a 15 turn growth cycle between 2 and 4, timing clans for when it hits 4. Then in Dyna, the extra food from the pig will allow it to work a hill during the cycle and make significant shields (being on a hill, it can already make the required 4 at 2 pop). The nice thing about this is that it allows us to make vet units while building culture in the 25K city. If the capital is the 25K city, you can't do that.
A big plus to having the 25K city not be the capitol is the ability to build FP, SP, and WP there, the garden culture gives a huge boost.
Moscow will not be choked for quite a while. It can work the Pig and go on a 15 turn growth cycle between 2 and 4, timing clans for when it hits 4. Then in Dyna, the extra food from the pig will allow it to work a hill during the cycle and make significant shields (being on a hill, it can already make the required 4 at 2 pop). The nice thing about this is that it allows us to make vet units while building culture in the 25K city. If the capital is the 25K city, you can't do that.
>That 25K city would be very hard pressed for large size while competing with the capitol >so heavily. That would very much effect my opinion on this start.
The 25K city takes the camel (Moscow could share it on growth turns). With that food, it has plenty of tiles to work (the coffee mountain, 2xriver hills, 2xbonus grass, 2xplains) I would recoemmend getting our GA soon after Dyna, and working all shield bearing tiles. The city only needs about 7 pop to be a monster.
The 25K city takes the camel (Moscow could share it on growth turns). With that food, it has plenty of tiles to work (the coffee mountain, 2xriver hills, 2xbonus grass, 2xplains) I would recoemmend getting our GA soon after Dyna, and working all shield bearing tiles. The city only needs about 7 pop to be a monster.
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Doc Tsiolkovski said:
I really don't feel like we are cheating. In standard 3C3 the second city is often picked for best resources.
The garden culture buildings are very cheap shields for the amount of culture they give. Now we have to make sure the empire is big enough to build them.Bezhukov said:
Now that I understand the game plan go for this start. I never build 2 cities that close, and I didn't realize what you were up to.
Here's the turn log.
4000BC: Move 1 NW to get more hills, work Camel in starting nine. Very shield heavy spot with two food bonuses. Now this is a start! Already 4spt. Building Ranger in 3. Researching Masonry in 16.
3850BC: Ranger->Ranger First ranger finds double cereal site in near north.
3800BC: Hut=maps.
3750BC: Inca to SE, trade our two techs +1gpt and 10 gold for Masonry and Warfare. Change production to TG in 3.Now researching Pottery in 11.
3700BC: Meet American scout in north - he has no tech to trade.
3650BC: Meet Sioux to NE. He has Cultivation, but won't trade for both our techs.
3600BC: Hun tribe teaches us Boat Building. Trade it to Crazy Horse for Cultivation +14 gold. Trade that and Boat to Abe for Scrape and 35 gold. Sell it to Inca for all his gold (after gifting 25 to improve relations). Same with Crazy Horse. We have two sources of iron and an elephant near Moscow, but not in city limits (if I'd stayed at the starting location, would have had iron!
3550BC: Meet Iroquios to far east. He lacks Masonry, up nothing. Also find horse well to east. Borders expand, now working Pigs.
3450BC: Americans have horses, fairly close by to the north.
3300BC: Meet Aztecs to far west. Trade Cultivation and Alpha for Rit and all his gold.
Trade Abe Potery for Sailing and 60 gold. Writing in 16. Worker Housing->Ranger in 2.
3250BC: Meet England. They are down many techs. Sell them cultivation after gifting gold. Buy two Iroquois workers. We have incense in our borders.
3200BC: Ranger->Archer.
3100BC: Buy Aztec worker. Horses about six tiles south of capital. Archer->Granary in 6 (will need to slow growth one turn to keep granary full)
3050BC: Alemenni tribe teaches us weaving, and we have silks! Silk road, here we come! We trade it to Abe for the wheel, and coffee shows up on nearby mountains - this is very valuable, as it let's mountains give food.
3000BC: Caste System shows up - we can get it in 7 with writing.
Setting up another city for 25K will be tight. Without working the Camel, Moscow can only hold three pop. We may already be too late for this strategy. The overall strategy is to try to time an Oracle build to get Dyna and Philosophy. It may already be too late for that (to get Dyna, not the Oracle.) Doc, some advice there?
If you choose the second city route, here is a plan.
Adjust Moscow to finish granary one turn before growth. Skim a worker off to keep granary full at 3 pop, growing in 5. Build clan timed to growth to 4.
Found city and immediately join our two native workers. Get max shields with those three pop. Shrine is required for Oracle, Forge (and Worker Housing?) should be built before starting it.
The other question, research Myst or let the AI go down that tree?
I believe Oracle and MoM will trigger our GA. Hopefully after we are a Monarchy.
It's a plan, not sure if it's the best one.
4000BC: Move 1 NW to get more hills, work Camel in starting nine. Very shield heavy spot with two food bonuses. Now this is a start! Already 4spt. Building Ranger in 3. Researching Masonry in 16.
3850BC: Ranger->Ranger First ranger finds double cereal site in near north.
3800BC: Hut=maps.
3750BC: Inca to SE, trade our two techs +1gpt and 10 gold for Masonry and Warfare. Change production to TG in 3.Now researching Pottery in 11.
3700BC: Meet American scout in north - he has no tech to trade.
3650BC: Meet Sioux to NE. He has Cultivation, but won't trade for both our techs.
3600BC: Hun tribe teaches us Boat Building. Trade it to Crazy Horse for Cultivation +14 gold. Trade that and Boat to Abe for Scrape and 35 gold. Sell it to Inca for all his gold (after gifting 25 to improve relations). Same with Crazy Horse. We have two sources of iron and an elephant near Moscow, but not in city limits (if I'd stayed at the starting location, would have had iron!
3550BC: Meet Iroquios to far east. He lacks Masonry, up nothing. Also find horse well to east. Borders expand, now working Pigs.
3450BC: Americans have horses, fairly close by to the north.
3300BC: Meet Aztecs to far west. Trade Cultivation and Alpha for Rit and all his gold.
Trade Abe Potery for Sailing and 60 gold. Writing in 16. Worker Housing->Ranger in 2.
3250BC: Meet England. They are down many techs. Sell them cultivation after gifting gold. Buy two Iroquois workers. We have incense in our borders.
3200BC: Ranger->Archer.
3100BC: Buy Aztec worker. Horses about six tiles south of capital. Archer->Granary in 6 (will need to slow growth one turn to keep granary full)
3050BC: Alemenni tribe teaches us weaving, and we have silks! Silk road, here we come! We trade it to Abe for the wheel, and coffee shows up on nearby mountains - this is very valuable, as it let's mountains give food.
3000BC: Caste System shows up - we can get it in 7 with writing.
Setting up another city for 25K will be tight. Without working the Camel, Moscow can only hold three pop. We may already be too late for this strategy. The overall strategy is to try to time an Oracle build to get Dyna and Philosophy. It may already be too late for that (to get Dyna, not the Oracle.) Doc, some advice there?
If you choose the second city route, here is a plan.
Adjust Moscow to finish granary one turn before growth. Skim a worker off to keep granary full at 3 pop, growing in 5. Build clan timed to growth to 4.
Found city and immediately join our two native workers. Get max shields with those three pop. Shrine is required for Oracle, Forge (and Worker Housing?) should be built before starting it.
The other question, research Myst or let the AI go down that tree?
I believe Oracle and MoM will trigger our GA. Hopefully after we are a Monarchy.
It's a plan, not sure if it's the best one.
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