Zulu Civ is a joke

[SxSnts9]

I'm in the middle of my first game as Shaka (Epic speed, Immortal difficulty) and it's basically a lul-fest.

It's well known that warring is always the best strategy in civ and I know that has a small part to do with this, but the early corps/armies +5 strength is wayyyy too OP. I conquered England immediately to my North as they forward settled me and were the weakest by far (Khmer had boxed them in). Then I went after the Khmer...he actually killed a few units, but by then I had unlocked early Corps so all my Impis became Impi corps. Once I took out him and grabbed Hong Kong I went south towards America. Roosevelt was slightly ahead in science, but by the time I reached him I had Impi corps and Knight Corps. He actually had a decent size army of about 5 knights attack me, but against corps they had absolutely no chance.

Even if the AI was better at war strategy they still would have been murdered by the fact that I had corps and they did not. Now I've just unlocked Nationalism so I'll have armies...it's basically unfair. Throw in the fact that I don't even need to combine units to make corps/armies because they auto form when they conquer a city and I'm basically wondering how the Zulu could ever lose.

 

[criZp]

they are designed to be op. same as aztec, scythia, mongolia, alexander, etc

 

[Portinou]

Just don’t play them?

 

[Scaramanga]

There are other victory conditions than Domination that could require a bit more finesse.

 

[bonafide11]

they are designed to be op. same as aztec, scythia, mongolia, alexander, etc

If everyone is OP, are they really OP? There's quite a few more I could add to the list you just mentioned above too. There are so many posts on this forum about civs or units being OP, it is sort of ridiculous. There are so many Civs that are extremely powerful in the game that I don't think we can really complain about a Civ being OP.

I don't think a nerf of the Zulu are necessary, but if they were to, I think they're strong even without allowing you to turn units into corps/armies from taking cities. Maybe they could do away without that. Not sure if it's necessary though.

 

[Phoenix1595]

There are other victory conditions than Domination that could require a bit more finesse.

I just played a science game with the Zulu and had a blast. I did warmonger a bit to rid myself of Alex from the continent we shared, but afterwards, Shaka was a peaceful but strong builder type who excelled into space, despite a good showing from AI civs with far better non-dom traits than the Zulu.

The point being, the challenge is to play and win through means *not* affiliated with one's strengths.

 

[RealHuhn]

Get a religion and the crusader belief. +10 combat strength near enemy cities that follow your religion. Makes every civ OP in combat. Granted, you can do the same thing as Shaka ^^

 

[criZp]

If everyone is OP, are they really OP? There's quite a few more I could add to the list you just mentioned above too. There are so many posts on this forum about civs or units being OP, it is sort of ridiculous. There are so many Civs that are extremely powerful in the game that I don't think we can really complain about a Civ being OP.

Everyone? I listed only civs focused 100% on war. War civs are always better than builder civs, in that buildings don't help you when they are on fire.

 

[Disgustipated]

I don't think a nerf of the Zulu are necessary,

I would probably get rid of the +5 combat strength for the corps. Early corps is an awesome enough bonus, not to mention free corps.

 

[Art Morte]

Like others have pointed out, there are other civs with possibly OP abilities. I don't like it how there's so much difference between the best and the worst civs, but it is what it is.

 

[bonafide11]

I would probably get rid of the +5 combat strength for the corps. Early corps is an awesome enough bonus, not to mention free corps.

Yeah, maybe you're right, since that gives them a military advantage throughout the rest of the game.

Still, I don't think the Zulu are that much more OP than many other civs in the game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It seems strong, but as it is not an early bonus, it sorta needs to be. But I suppose I should try it out.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Yeah it's crazy strong when it becomes available - like to the point where it's not difficult to pull off a domination without losing another unit. It does come somewhat late though so it's not completely game breaking. The AI is bad enough at combat without having to contend with super units that you get for free. Not to mention the fact that these will nearly always be combined with a great general which come very easily with the cheap encampments. I agree that it should probably be toned down.

 

[Sostratus]

Zulu has three factors coming into its Impi corps domination:
1) impis are absurdly cheaper than pikemen. 200 vs 125. (Btw, this is only because pikes are absurdly expensive. Swords only cost 90 and trade +5 vs pikes/impis.)
2) Early corps: this goes without saying. Because of how combat strength works in combat, a corps is actually a little more effective than 2 of the base units by themselves. The problem is that you can field impi corps that can overpower any unit for just a little more production than it takes other civs to build a single pikeman.
3) Corps combat bonus. Because of how combat strength works, a corps' unit +10 strength normally gives it 1.5x damage dealt & 1.5x less damage received. An Army is double dealt, half received. (Technically, +17 strength i like ~97% or something, but close to double.) This is how the formula is calibrated. Corps getting +15 strength puts them between those two figures. (+82% or so.) The relevant figure for armies is +141%.

That's right- if you compute combat effectiveness as offensive power * defensive power, then:
Civ6 corps: 2.25x effectiveness Armies ~4x
Chad Zulu corps: 3.31x Armies: 5.85x

From a production standpoint this is a little ridiculous. Shaka'a effectively fielding 3 units for your two in Medieval. When you rack up oligarchy, generals, etc, it only gets more ridiculous because the combat strength curve is exponential- each boost makes the other boosts more valuable.

This takes about 3-3.5 eras to get to, though, so I don't think it's actually as bad from a human v human standpoint as war carts.

On the plus side, Shaka does counter the Mongols quite well!

 

[vortical42]

Been playing pretty much nothing but Shaka since R&F came out. Yes he is strong, but that strength comes at a price. The window for taking full advantage of his abilities is surprisingly narrow and requires a careful balancing act. You need to rush science to unlock Impis. You also need enough culture to make sure that Mercenaries is unlocked around the same time. At the same time, you need enough gold and production to enable you to crank out your army in a timely manner. When you manage to line everything up just right, you get an unstoppable killing machine that steamrolls out of control. I've pulled it off one time out of the 20-30 games I've played. The rest of the games I was either dead before I ever got to Impis, or trying to fight enemies who were hopelessly far ahead. If you try to play him like the Civ 5 Zulu (non-stop aggression from turn 1) you are in for a bad time. Once I made the adjustment to playing patient and building an early empire it becomes a whole different game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There are other victory conditions than Domination that could require a bit more finesse.

You don't need much finesse to win any VC in the game when the only cities left on the map that aren't yours are city states and one surrounded/pillaged capital.

 

[steveg700]

I'm in the middle of my first game as Shaka (Epic speed, Immortal difficulty) and it's basically a lul-fest.

It's well known that warring is always the best strategy in civ and I know that has a small part to do with this, but the early corps/armies +5 strength is wayyyy too OP. I conquered England immediately to my North as they forward settled me and were the weakest by far (Khmer had boxed them in). Then I went after the Khmer...he actually killed a few units, but by then I had unlocked early Corps so all my Impis became Impi corps. Once I took out him and grabbed Hong Kong I went south towards America. Roosevelt was slightly ahead in science, but by the time I reached him I had Impi corps and Knight Corps. He actually had a decent size army of about 5 knights attack me, but against corps they had absolutely no chance.

Even if the AI was better at war strategy they still would have been murdered by the fact that I had corps and they did not. Now I've just unlocked Nationalism so I'll have armies...it's basically unfair. Throw in the fact that I don't even need to combine units to make corps/armies because they auto form when they conquer a city and I'm basically wondering how the Zulu could ever lose.

Civ V's approach to civ's tends to be devoid of finesse. The devs favor blunt instruments. They want Civ to be a facile game for facile players.

But even given that, the Zulu abilities are indeed a gross combination. Maybe it will make them decent AI opponents. Even with all of this, I'll take them over them over Sumeria doing an early rush with war carts.

If everyone is OP, are they really OP?

Of course. Its not a binary condition.

 

[Archon_Wing]

You don't need much finesse to win any VC in the game when the only cities left on the map that aren't yours are city states and one surrounded/pillaged capital.

But, finding the best way to win a psuedo victory condition when you basically could have won anyways because everyone is dead in the fastest manner is the epitome of skill.

 

[Disgustipated]

The window for taking full advantage of his abilities is surprisingly narrow

Didn't seem that way to me. Initially you get the Impi which are pretty good units. Then you get overpowered corps later on. Then you get armies later on. Then you can upgrade to pike and shot armies later on. You are really good until steel (when your battering rams will be useless), but even then you can keep going if you have siege units.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Didn't seem that way to me. Initially you get the Impi which are pretty good units. Then you get overpowered corps later on. Then you get armies later on. Then you can upgrade to pike and shot armies later on. You are really good until steel (when your battering rams will be useless), but even then you can keep going if you have siege units.

Yeah me either. Ikanda give some culture yield per citizen at half price plus production boost for building your army. I basically just made sure I had enough science to get Impi and then it's a slightly longer wait for corps but with some practice you can probably time it perfectly. After that there's really no need to build anything - just capture it all. I had no trouble pulling off the killing machine on my first try on emperor with AI+. It's probably somewhat difficult on Deity but not overly so with Magnus in the mix.