Wonder Ideas for C2C

In reality, without horses or elephant (or camel), you dont have mount units at all.
And having many of them is not really useful. You can build many type of units, but you will build only 2 of them (one archery, one melee).

In my actual game, because I have horses, I dont even build a single Megafauna Wonder. Bonuses are small and units would be useless. But look like AI are unable to see that Mammouth trainer in not useful when you have elephant, and deer and giraffe are totally seless if you have horses.

And dont forget they are wild animals. Train a zebra? Too much work. Why try to train them is you have horses? And why do this when you wont gain any benefits for this?

I never bother with horses. The Buffalo Riders fill my need for most of the early time line and i don't research the horse line of techs until very late in the Renaissance. If I don't get the Bison Rider, then Bear Riders do in a pinch.
 
I try for the Bison and Rhino riders first, then the Bear Rider. If I am not able to get the Bison Rider I go for the Deer one but it is intended for Arctic and Sub-arctic (and Antarctic) conditions.

My original intent was to try and make it so that your nation would only have one heavy and one light cavalry. So you would have Mammoths, bison, bears or elephants and Horses, deer, camel, or zebra. However there is not enough art to give a full set of each. Any resources you had of other types would be replaced by the ones you have selected.
 
Fight or Flight adds a little extra dimension to these types of mounts too.
Mammoths - of course they are just the largest brute force power sources and go unaltered on the option. Fairly poor withdrawal and pursuit.
Bison - these are largely unaltered with the option. Fairly good withdrawal for a heavier mount.
Bears - STRONG pursuit but not so good with withdrawal
Elephants - generally unaltered but are fairly weak with withdrawal and pursuit.
Horses - very strong withdrawal and pursuit depending on if heavy or light in nature.
Deer - VERY powerful withdrawal with some early withdraw makes them perfect for hit and run strategies.
Camel - much like horses. Capable of either heavy or light strategies.
Zebra - not as strong with early withdrawal but the strongest base withdrawal due to the stripes being a natural means to confuse those in pursuit.
 
I try for the Bison and Rhino riders first, then the Bear Rider. If I am not able to get the Bison Rider I go for the Deer one but it is intended for Arctic and Sub-arctic (and Antarctic) conditions.

Nearly the same.
So, if you can't build the Bear Rider because you alredy have the Bison, it's not a loss for you?
Because it was my suggestion... Only 1 Megafauna / civ.
 
It would be nice to have an option to turn all the various riders off. I don't really like them and there effects on strategy, balance and my love realism. Especially on the GEM map their completely out of place. Having an option on staring a game would be vary nice.

you can turn them off... find the folder in the Assets/modules/alt timeline and set the MLF file for mega fauna from 1 to 0.
 
Wonder Overview: Functional and Placeholder Wonders

This post is in response to the renewed discussion regarding skeletal wonders, particularly Vokarya's old wonders. I list the the wonders suggested by Vokarya below, as listed by Faustmouse before me, but now updated with current status. I have also grabbed other non-functional wonders to add to the list, and have indulged myself by including critiques of a few wonders that I fail to find particularly wondrous.

Functional
These wonders are functioning as Vokarya intended:
Spoiler :

Bauhaus = Complete (although the bonus currently applies to National Wonders instead of Achievements)

Bayreuth Festspielhaus = Complete.

Berlin Wall = Complete

House of Wisdom = Complete.

Rosetta Stone = Complete.

Woodstock = I assume that this is implemented, as it says it is. I haven't actually tested this building to see if the Python works.


Partially Functional
These wonders are missing bits:
Spoiler :

Aachen Cathedral = Revolution effect changed to a national stability bonus; original probably impossible without dealing with an unpleasant amount of revolutions code. +1 Happiness in cities with State Religion would be possible if the code was ported to buildings from civics, alternatively possible using autobuildings. Currently does nothing if not using Revolutions.

El Escorial = Partially complete; I am not sure how easily "Can build missionaries without special buildings" can be implemented.


Non-Functional
Placeholders, which don't currently belong in the mod without changes:
Spoiler :

Burning Man = Non-functional. Supposed to give +2 happy from all Culture Wonders, which is possible, but a lot of work!
Cabaret Voltaire = I'm not actually sure if this is supposed to do anything more than give +2 artists, but either way it is effectively useless - it actually reduces stability as well! (Suggestion: +75% faster production of Entertainers in this city, +25% faster production of Entertainers in all cities, free Entertain promo for Entertainers in this city.)

Capuchin Crypt = Non-functional. Intended function (free Graveyard in all cities) is overly weak, but easy to do.

Congress of Vienna = Doesn't currently seem to work at all, no idea if the special requirements for membership are possible, but unlikely to be simple.

El Camino de Santiago = +Gold from all cities with State Religion, cannot be built if you own Holy City. Could probably be achieved through a slightly janky arrangement of autobuildings and python. Not easily.

Ellis Island = Currently claims to proved a free Culture (European) in all cities, so presumably non-functional.

Gate of the Sun = Supposed to give +2 culture from Sundials. This is easy to do but remarkably weak.

Krak des Chevaliers = +20% strength when fighting units owned by the player controlling your State Religion's Holy City: impossible. How would you even represent this? +25% defence in all cities if you control your state religions Holy City: Possible, using autobuildings.

Las Medulas = Weak, not sure what intended purpose is.

Pere Lachaise Cementery = +50% from Great Artist producing Great Work: possible if this used Outcome code. Currently does nothing.

Westminster Abbey = +33% Great People bomb outcomes: possible, if this were converted to using Outcomes code?

Yasnaya Polyana = +artist from farms in city vicinity: not currently possible. Does nothing.


Differently Functional
These don't do what they were planned to do, but they still do something. The listed boosts are those originally proposed:
Spoiler :

Bank of China Tower = -25% maintenance for Corporations: not currently possible, but theoretically possible if the function was ported from civics. Currently somewhat functional, but description still claims to reduce corporation maintenance.

Crystal Palace = +4 culture from Culture wonders. Technically possible, but there are an enormous number of cultures! The work involved would be considerable. Currently operates as a weaker version of the Sistine Chapel.

Hill of Tara = 1 Happiness in cities with State Religion would be possible if the code was ported to buildings from civics, alternatively possible using autobuildings.

Madison Avenue = +50% faster construction of Executives: trivially easy, complete. +income from Corporations: impossible. Currently operating giving different bonuses.

Walk of Fame = +Happy from Celebrities and Artists likely impossible. Currently gives +commerce from Celebrities and Artists instead.

Warhol's Factory = +Unhealthy from artist likely impossible. Operating under different boosts.

Zurich-Orbital = +income from corporations: impossible. Currently functional under different bonuses.


Complaints and Speculation
In which I point to some assorted oddities, possible errors, and personal bugbears:
Spoiler :

Copernicus' Observatory/Plato's Academy = Very poor value for a Great Wonder; essentially just a more extreme version of the Observatory. Not sure what this is intended to do. Not very Wondrous at present.

Coral Castle = Technically working exactly as designed, but it wasn't designed to do anything. This is a remarkably weak wonder. (Suggestion: Have this give a Tourism boost in your coastal cities - +6 Tourism in coastal cities you control. This could be done easily using the expression system.)

Grand Marine Festival = Provides Sea Hunter I, a promotion also provided for free by Master Sea Hunter, and therefore to anyone with the Sea Hunting Tradition national wonder. This could be made more valuable by changing the free promo, or using the expression system to give Sea Hunter II if the city contains a Master Sea Hunter.

Fine Stoneware Carvers = Should probably be renamed Elamtu Stoneware, which IIRC is the stoneware the story references.

Kingdom Centre = Seem weak for a late age wonder, and description differs from effects. May be a placeholder?

Military Standards - Bison and Zebra are currently world wonders, which is presumably unintentional.

Six Harmonies Pagoda = Gives boosts to Hinduism, Taoism and Confucianism, but can be built with Buddhist, Taoist or Confucian Temples. Either the Hindu or Buddhist part must be wrong.

Tumen Amugulang Palace = Functional, but weak. Fountains are cheap buildings, so this resembles a national wonder more than a world wonder.


Note that this assumes that the most recent SVN revisions haven't changed these.
 
Last edited:
Just a few thoughts regarding some of the above:

Copernicus' Observatory/Plato's Academy - X% Faster construction of Observatory/Mathematics Academy in all cities?

Ellis Island - I don't think it's possible to have multiple free buildings from a single wonder, is it? That said, I can think of at least one way to have it provide all culture effects, in a roundabout way. Have it give a new Culture(Immigrants) to all cities, and use a large-scale find-and-replace to go through every culture wonder and change their prerequisites to Culture(Group) OR Culture(Immigrants). I actually feel like having it only give it to all cities on the same continent fits better, but that's a minor matter.

Grand Marine Festival - I actually think the creation of a new promotion uniquely available from the wonder (Master Sea Hunter?) that gives better sea animal subdue chances would be good. Normally subdue chance for sea hunting maxes out at, I believe, 45%? Maybe throw on a +X% faster training of water units. Another idea that I think sounds interesting but may not be possible is for it to allow the subduing of sea creatures sooner than usual. That is, allow subduing of small sea creatures even before Commercial Whaling.

Six Harmonies Pagoda - Almost certainly ought to be Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian, seeing as it's in China.

Also:
Svalbard Global Seed Vault - Currently functional, but it allows all of the vicinity buildings for its contained crops, which is rather suboptimal. Suddenly you've got an arctic city that has farms for every crop under the sun. I just finished tweaking its prerequisite terrains to add the new Tundra (to go with Taiga and Ice), and added in a lot of the missing bonuses as well, but I think it could use a rework. What if it instead allowed you to train a unique worker along the lines of the Great Farmer that can place any of the various plant-based resources, even without access to the resource in question?
 
Last edited:
Aachen Cathedral could be turned off in games that are not playing with the Revolutions mod on. There are a couple of other buildings that should also have that done Governors Pets/Menagerie are ones I intended to only be available if you are playing with Revolutions on.

Ellis Island - I don't think it's possible to have multiple free buildings from a single wonder, is it? That said, I can think of at least one way to have it provide all culture effects, in a roundabout way. Have it give a new Culture(Immigrants) to all cities, and use a large-scale find-and-replace to go through every culture wonder and change their prerequisites to Culture(Group) OR Culture(Immigrants). I actually feel like having it only give it to all cities on the same continent fits better, but that's a minor matter.

With Cultures I think you only need to give it to one city to have it available in all cities.

Grand Marine Festival - I actually think the creation of a new promotion uniquely available from the wonder (Master Sea Hunter?) that gives better sea animal subdue chances would be good. Normally subdue chance for sea hunting maxes out at, I believe, 45%? Maybe throw on a +X% faster training of water units. Another idea that I think sounds interesting but may not be possible is for it to allow the subduing of sea creatures sooner than usual. That is, allow subduing of small sea creatures even before Commercial Whaling.

This is one of those on my Hunter Promotion review. I like the idea of early subdue but it may mean we need some earlier buildings also.

Six Harmonies Pagoda - Almost certainly ought to be Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian, seeing as it's in China.

Agreed

Also:
Svalbard Global Seed Vault - Currently functional, but it allows all of the vicinity buildings for its contained crops, which is rather suboptimal. Suddenly you've got an arctic city that has farms for every crop under the sun. I just finished tweaking its prerequisite terrains to add the new Tundra (to go with Taiga and Ice), and added in a lot of the missing bonuses as well, but I think it could use a rework. What if it instead allowed you to train a unique worker along the lines of the Great Farmer that can place any of the various plant-based resources, even without access to the resource in question?

The way it is coded you can only have one unit like the Great Farmer. This is why we can't have a Great Geologist to find minerals.

having a special unit that can do the planting is probably sub optimal. Perhaps a worker promotion that lets all the workers in a nation plant the plants may work. Not sure how to implement that at the moment. The way the forest planting works is that the worker plants an improvement forest which is turned into the feature forest by python when it is completed. Maybe something similar.
 
Aachen Cathedral could be turned off in games that are not playing with the Revolutions mod on. There are a couple of other buildings that should also have that done Governors Pets/Menagerie are ones I intended to only be available if you are playing with Revolutions on.
OnGameOption or NotOnGameOption should be in place for buildings and thus easily employed to make any building option sensitive. One I know I've used the tag on is Bee Bombs (for a functional example.)

I realize, DH, you probably know this, but there are other team members that can help with these that might be able to do so with this slight guidance.

Six Harmonies Pagoda - Almost certainly ought to be Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian, seeing as it's in China.
Should probably research which one was behind it as you can almost guarantee one of them was.

Burning Man = Non-functional. Supposed to give +2 happy from all Culture Wonders, which is possible, but a lot of work!
This is pretty specific and not applicable to a wide range of effects so far as I can tell. I would suggest to do this effect with python.

Cabaret Voltaire = I'm not actually sure if this is supposed to do anything more than give +2 artists, but either way it is effectively useless - it actually reduces stability as well! (Suggestion: +75% faster production of Entertainers in this city, +25% faster production of Entertainers in all cities, free Entertain promo for Entertainers in this city.)
And/or free experience for Entertainers. I always like to research the real world building to try to get the best approach to modelling what it should do in Civ.

Capuchin Crypt = Non-functional. Intended function (free Graveyard in all cities) is overly weak, but easy to do.
If we're going to DO that then we need to make Graveyards a positive thing. Now that gold isn't trying to be addressed by overwhelming gold upkeep on some buildings like the Graveyard, perhaps the graveyard could be made to NOT require THAT much gold. I've long had a gripe about how much it costs in upkeep. Graveyards really don't cost much to the taxpayer y'know? A little, sure... someone's gotta maintain the grass I guess. But THAT much? Any time you have a wonder give a free whatever building to all cities, you must be careful that the building isn't one that is on the boundary of should/should not build. Graveyards definitely are right now in that category and I don't think its fair to have a building that is pretty much in even the smallest real world communities, let alone towns or cities, falling into this category.

Congress of Vienna = Doesn't currently seem to work at all, no idea if the special requirements for membership are possible, but unlikely to be simple.
Not sure what it's supposed to do but if it's supposed to be bringing up votes like the UN, then it's probably more a matter of that whole feature being currently broken if reports are not just a matter of the mastery victory condition interrupting votes, which it shouldn't be either. I know it's a problem but I don't know that area of code very well. Tripped? This would be a good one to research.

El Camino de Santiago = +Gold from all cities with State Religion, cannot be built if you own Holy City. Could probably be achieved through a slightly janky arrangement of autobuildings and python. Not easily.
The cannot be built part would be a little tough to provide but I can enable python to add a civilization trait. (The boolean to designate a trait as a civilization trait, one possessed by the people, not the leader, already exists.) With a trait, you would have access to a tag that would add gold to all cities with the state religion (pretty sure... would have to doublecheck).

Autobuildings and python could do it too.

Ellis Island = Currently claims to proved a free Culture (European) in all cities, so presumably non-functional.
Used to give all base ethnic level cultures to all of the player's cities. Surely that's not too much is it? Should probably filter out any that never existed on the map so far.

Gate of the Sun = Supposed to give +2 culture from Sundials. This is easy to do but remarkably weak.
Make it have +2 research from all sundials and watch civs fight for it. Might actually fit a little. The Gate of the Sun is quite interesting and very difficult to guess at it's benefit to the culture but the culture that built it was very advanced and extremely focused on astronomical science.

Krak des Chevaliers = +20% strength when fighting units owned by the player controlling your State Religion's Holy City: impossible. How would you even represent this? +25% defence in all cities if you control your state religions Holy City: Possible, using autobuildings.
To get close to the first effect:

Are we getting the religious combat classes coming up correctly for units built by players who have adopted a national religion? I don't think that IS working right now come to think of it. I might have to look into that. However, you could create a free promotion or set of free promos that gives a combat modifier against units of your own religion. That might be kinda close to the concept of that original issue. Python would be necessary to assign the proper promotion to your units correctly of course. Either that or assign the correct civilization trait to the leader that represents the adopted state religion and attach the promotion to all units of the player that has that trait. That would take a little less programming most likely.

Las Medulas = Weak, not sure what intended purpose is.
Has anyone got any research driven ideas?

Pere Lachaise Cementery = +50% from Great Artist producing Great Work: possible if this used Outcome code. Currently does nothing.
@DH: Is there a way to make this work with those great work outcomes the entertainers are using?

Westminster Abbey = +33% Great People bomb outcomes: possible, if this were converted to using Outcomes code?
hmm... not sure if this is doable without extra dll coding or not.
Yasnaya Polyana = +artist from farms in city vicinity: not currently possible. Does nothing.
Sure it is... autobuildings :) Surely you can give a farm prerequisite for an autobuild and possibly even have layers of autobuildings that count the # of farms in vicinity.

Ok... that's enough blabbering from me for now.
 
Six Harmonies Pagoda - Almost certainly ought to be Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian, seeing as it's in China.
The name comes from Buddhist principles, and I suppose if we had to decide on a single religion that it represents, it'd be Buddhism. It was constructed in a period when Confucian principles were predominant though, and there's always been a lot of overlap and intermixing between Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist principles and philosophy in China anyway. The distinction between religion and philosophy in China and its cultural sphere is much less distinct to begin with. I'd say that in terms of relevance, Buddhism > Confucianism > Taoism for this wonder. Hinduism is very clearly incorrect, in any case.
 
The name comes from Buddhist principles, and I suppose if we had to decide on a single religion that it represents, it'd be Buddhism. It was constructed in a period when Confucian principles were predominant though, and there's always been a lot of overlap and intermixing between Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist principles and philosophy in China anyway. The distinction between religion and philosophy in China and its cultural sphere is much less distinct to begin with. I'd say that in terms of relevance, Buddhism > Confucianism > Taoism for this wonder. Hinduism is very clearly incorrect, in any case.
Buddhism doesn't have many special buildings iirc. Confucian and Taoism already do, if I'm not mistaken. So it would be best for Buddists in game relevance anyhow.
 
Make it have +2 research from all sundials and watch civs fight for it. Might actually fit a little. The Gate of the Sun is quite interesting and very difficult to guess at it's benefit to the culture but the culture that built it was very advanced and extremely focused on astronomical science.
This is much better than a culture boost, in any case.

Not sure what it's supposed to do but if it's supposed to be bringing up votes like the UN, then it's probably more a matter of that whole feature being currently broken if reports are not just a matter of the mastery victory condition interrupting votes, which it shouldn't be either.
IIRC, this was failing to do anything ages ago. I will be able to give a report on whether the UN is working in a little while, my test game is just entering the Industrial Age.

Used to give all base ethnic level cultures to all of the player's cities. Surely that's not too much is it? Should probably filter out any that never existed on the map so far.
This definitely used to work. It may just be a display problem, but it isn't saying that it provides all cultures at present. I will be able to test this out in a few days, hopefully.

Has anyone got any research driven ideas?
Regarding Las Medulas: an effect that replaces Mountains in the city vicinity with Hills? The wonder is the site of a particularly large-scale form of mining used by the Romans in which they pumped water under hills/mountainsides until they collapsed, revealing a lot of gold and, presumably, unimaginable quantities of mud.

The name comes from Buddhist principles, and I suppose if we had to decide on a single religion that it represents, it'd be Buddhism.
The wonder specifically gives a bonus to each temple type. I believe that it is supposed to represent the syncretism of Chinese religion. All that would be required is to replace the Hindu reference with a Buddhist one. Buddhism already has some powerful wonders, I don't really think it needs any more.
 
Las Medulas: I rather like the idea about changing Peaks into Hills for its uniqueness, and it's certainly doable in Python, but changing all Peaks into Hills may not actually be beneficial. There are quite a few cultures, buildings, and other wonders that require a Peak in the vicinity. Also, as an obvious effect, why not have it provide a source of Gold Ore? It was a gold mine, after all. Possibly have it change just a single nearby resourceless peak into hills, and placing gold ore there?

Ellis Island: I don't remember this wonder ever giving more than just the Culture (European) in C2C, though it may have happened in a version that I skipped or otherwise missed. Also, to clarify, Native Culture (Group) is an autobuild that in turn gives a Culture (Group) in all cities, which is the prerequisite for the Culture wonders themselves. Ellis Island currently gives a Culture (European) in all cities, and there's nothing in its code that would appear to indicate it's meant to do otherwise. I still think the effect of Ellis Island should be limited to just the continent it's built on. For that matter, limiting Native Culture (Group) to providing Culture (Group) only to other cities on its own continent would also cut back on culture availability on most map types. Another idea that may not be possible, and would certainly require a bit of work, would be for it to provide a single random Culture (Group) that is not already available on its continent (or to its building civ), and is present in the world, to all cities on its continent/civ. I can think of a few approaches to get that effect in Python, but I'm not certain if Python granting of bonuses directly from buildings/wonders is working correctly at present. If nothing else though, it should be possible to have it randomly pick and create a secondary building that then creates the Culture (Group) building.

Congress of Vienna/UN: I'm fairly certain I've had a Congress of Vienna election come up at least once before, when playing with the United Nations option on (allows elections even if Diplo victory is disabled) and Mastery Victory off. I haven't looked at the membership criteria though, which I believe are stringent enough that having no other potential members to trigger the elections is possible or even likely. The United Nations elections are definitely working fine, at least under the above options.
 
Ellis Island was always intended to give you ALL cultures, not just european. This was just a place holder. But that's only the original idea behind that, I don't mind if it gets changed if people think it would be too overpowered. I personaly like the idea with all base cultures. But you are right, it doesn't make much sense to give you cultures that are not in the game.
 
Las Medulas: I rather like the idea about changing Peaks into Hills for its uniqueness, and it's certainly doable in Python, but changing all Peaks into Hills may not actually be beneficial. There are quite a few cultures, buildings, and other wonders that require a Peak in the vicinity. Also, as an obvious effect, why not have it provide a source of Gold Ore? It was a gold mine, after all. Possibly have it change just a single nearby resourceless peak into hills, and placing gold ore there?

Agree

Congress of Vienna/UN
: I'm fairly certain I've had a Congress of Vienna election come up at least once before, when playing with the United Nations option on (allows elections even if Diplo victory is disabled) and Mastery Victory off. I haven't looked at the membership criteria though, which I believe are stringent enough that having no other potential members to trigger the elections is possible or even likely. The United Nations elections are definitely working fine, at least under the above options.

The Apostolic vote is also working. The Congress is supposed to just be another set like it and the UN but for a different group of nations.
 
Top Bottom