Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

It wasn't Htiler who drove World War 2... World War 2 drove Hitler. He only reached such heights because he was in the right place at the right time.

I believe it was Hitler-controlled Germany that invaded Poland which started WWII.

WarlordMatt said:

I just had an interesting idea. What if Hitler was indeed accepted into the Academy of Arts in 1907? He may as well go on to be an artist, and never run out of money and move to Munich. Perhaps he never even develops strong anti-Semite beliefs. Result? No rise to power, no WWII. Germany continues to abide by the Versailles treaty into the 1930's, and the NES would start around 1935. However, this is all assuming that no one else takes the same path as Hitler, and Germany remains bound by Versailles.

Was an althist like this done before?
Also, any big flaws in it? This is my first attempt at an althist.

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However with the death of Hindenberg I feel more people would have turned to the ever increasing parties to the left and far-left(communist). With no strong conservative party such as the Nazis there would only be one place for the people to turn. Eventually Germany could have became a Soviet ally and still have invaded Poland along with the USSR. it would be ironic if that happened.

But what if they didn't?

Also what you said above would make a pretty cool althist in itself.

erez87 said:

Ok
All in all it's Napoleon victory. Now to diffrences.

Ottomans were allied to Napoleon agaisnt Austria and later Russia, so was Persia. With more allies Napoleon won agaisnt Russia and created a huge Poland that ruled his eastern lands and was allied to him.
With enough power against Russia Napoleon also won in Spain, annexing the mainland. USA conquered most of Canada and northern Mexico. Mexico, loosign lands, went south to those Spanish lands until stopped by French troops in Panama.
It's not a Culombia. It's the Holy Christian Empire. It's ruler is the pope that left Rome, moved to Spain, and than had to leave that to, he left to the Spanish colonies (Spain was always a great catholic country) In there is was accepted by everyone and ruled a new Vatican, this time with possibilites of expansion...
Ally of Frane as well China is right now the fastest growing and second strongest country... Korea, Japan and SOuth Eastern Asian vassaldom (dark green) are their vassals... France doesn't like that (You know all the revolution stuff are back, with Democrazy...)

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I asume PoD means Point of Divergence. Where is your PoD. Did napoleon ever launch his invasion of Egypt. If not, what the hell was he up to at this tiem to bering himeven more fame. How did Napoleon create a navy strong enough to counter the English?

There are a thousand questions i'd like to ask. Napoleonic times are full of goings on.

WarlordMatt said:

I believe it was Hitler-controlled Germany that invaded Poland which started WWII.

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Any other German rule rwould have done essentially the same, trying to avenge their people's sufferings. Or do you think that they would have accepted Versaillies, the most humilitating treaty ever wroght on Germany? No, they would still have fought a war. Perhaps it would have avoided the Holocaust. In which case there would still be large amounts of Jews in Europe, but still a lot of Anti-Semitism. There wouldn't have been an Israel (and that's probably better for world peace), so probably no occupied palestine, no percieved US interventionism, no terrorism, and a world which is more peaceful but more outspokenly racist.

Or do you think that they would have accepted Versaillies, the most humilitating treaty ever wroght on Germany?

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That's what my althist assumes, perhaps military police from Allied nations are sent to prevent uprisings, etc.

But that's another good-sounding althist you wrote above. I'd like to see either that or Warman's idea turned into a NES.

@ French troops munitnyed in OTL did Was the French government unable to deal with and commies seized control?

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Well, yes, to an extent. Okay, let me change the game name to "Guess-the-French-Socialist-Leader"...

I just had an interesting idea. What if Hitler was indeed accepted into the Academy of Arts in 1907? He may as well go on to be an artist, and never run out of money and move to Munich. Perhaps he never even develops strong anti-Semite beliefs. Result? No rise to power, no WWII. Germany continues to abide by the Versailles treaty into the 1930's, and the NES would start around 1935. However, this is all assuming that no one else takes the same path as Hitler, and Germany remains bound by Versailles.

Was an althist like this done before?
Also, any big flaws in it? This is my first attempt at an althist.

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Great minds think alike - I wanted to write a detailed (sort of) scenario on such a world. Hitler's anti-semitism was by then quite developped, I'm afraid. Technically, Versailles treaty was being gradually repealled at the time anyhow - the reparations were decreased, and the Germans were playing quite well on the Red Scare thing. That was why they were allowed to rearm in OTL. I think WWII will be started by either a German military junta, either by the Poles (well, I remember writing about that sometime long, long ago in a forum far, far away). Then again... We'll see.

There wouldn't have been an Israel (and that's probably better for world peace), so probably no occupied palestine, no percieved US interventionism, no terrorism, and a world which is more peaceful but more outspokenly racist.

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Doubtable. Terrorists in Palestine would be fighting Egyptians instead, big deal... Terrorism will be even more spread out in the Middle East, though it is hard to say what would happen to USA in this case (I sort of suspect it will still intervenne during the Cold War - ofcourse, this is assuming that we are talking simply about an Israel-less scenario). Also, please tell me what will you do with the numerous Zionist colonies ALREADY in Palestine and who ALREADY were promised a national homeland with a hint of future independance? If they don't get that, I suspect that they too will run around and blow up themselves. Heh, how about the infamous terrorist Ariel Sharon?

Also, about German communists. I doubt STALIN will allow THEM to come to power ther and will try to hinder them - he feared that this will place USSR into a position of a junior member in the Comintern. And even if they do come to power, Stalin probably won't support them anyway. Nothing on the scale of OFFICIAL actions or protests, but no allies neither. In fact, possible accusations of Trotskyism.

"Guess-the-French-Socialist-Leader"

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Thorez? ennenetnnentnetnententnententene

das said:

Heh, how about the infamous terrorist Ariel Sharon?

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That is OTL.

Lets not turn this into a area for political debate. Althistory only!

Thorez? ennenetnnentnetnententnententene

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No, not quite.

That is OTL.

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Well, I personally happen to like Sharon. Largely for war-mongering. But, yeah, like Insane said.

Btw, here's the Hitler-less timeline:

Late 1914 in a forest somewhere in France was rather noisy due to constant gunfire.

"Forward!" - a bloodied Bavarian volunteer officer commanded - "Forward!" - he shouted yet again, firing at what seemed to be a Frenchman. The battered remnants of his unit followed him. One of them shot another Frenchman as they went through the forest, charging to break out of here.

Suddenly, that particular volunteer heard an odd noise. He stopped, and was afraid to turn around. When he did, he noticed an odd, big, white, furry shape. It had big claws, too. Enraged, it tore apart the unfortunate volunteer, thus making sure he doesn't one day beat that... thing's internesional genocide record.

Thus died Adolph Hilter. I mean Hitler.

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This is a rather brief description of the consequences of the aforementioned occurance in 1930-1950 period.

Hitlerless as it was, Germany continued under conservative/moderate rule with growing socialist involvement. Eventually, in 1936, there is a military coup caused by the infuriation with the SLOWNESS of the reparation decrease and the generally humiliating peace terms. A military junta led by Erich von Mannstein took over, combating inflation and in the same time stopping reparations and beginning re-armament. Mannstein played carefully on the "Red Menace" card with France and Britain, and thus was allowed to do all this (note that there is no remilitarization of the Rhine, no Anchluss and no Munich Congress); meanwhile, he secretly negotiated with Stalin about Poland. Mannstein wanted 1914 borders restored, in the east at least. Stalin wanted the same, and clearly, the two leaders struck common ground. In 1937, Colonel Koc, a Polish nationalist and government strongman, came to power in Poland. Mannstein claimed "mistreatment of Germans" and invaded Poland before the western powers could as much as say anything. The rearmed German army DID face some problems with the Polish one, but the risky attack towards Warsaw paid off. Colonel Koc was overthrown, Poland ceded the old German lands back. Then, just as the Germans withdrew, the power struggle that followed in Poland was exploited by the USSR. Soviet forces crushed the stunned (two sneak attacks in a row) Polish forces quite handily, facing major resistance only around Warsaw itself. Eastern Polish territories were divided between BelSSR and UkrSSR, the remnants were at first declared a "people's republic" and later annexed as the Polish Soviet Socialist Republic into USSR. Mannstein condemned it "in the harshest of terms", but did nothing "for the sake of peace". Almost immediately after, the newly-gained positions allowed the Soviets to stage the 1920s plan for Pribaltic annexation once again. Well-organized communist coups took place in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Soviet forces entered to "defeat the counter-revolutionary forces". After that, the Polish annexation scenario was carried out. Shocked, Britain, France, Germany and Italy signed the Elminau Entante and guaranteed territorial integrity of Finland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Turkey. But Stalin was satisfied with the western border for now anyway. Meanwhile, he begun fostering good relations with Turkey and with Spain, where the Nationalists were finally defeated in mid-1938 due to bad organization of Entante intervention.

Thus, a "cold war" has started in Europe. But Stalin by then switched his attention from there.

In 1939, a Japanese army (as in OTL) invaded Mongolia. It was crushed with humiliating ease by Zhukov at Nomonhan. As this time around, there was no serious "fascist threat", Stalin ordered a counter-attack. Superior Soviet doctrine and weaponry was used well by Zhukov, who, with reinforcements, blitzkrieged through much of Manchuria. Stalin's alliance with Chiang Kai Shek was reactivated, and the Nationalist Chinese started an offensive of their against the Japanese. Concerned with the Soviets possibly overruning Japan (after their fleet won a series of minor skirmishes) and getting all of its lands, the Americans decided to attack Japan as well, claiming war atrocities in China. January 1st 1940 became the "Day that Will Live in Infamy", as Emperor Hirohito put it, as the American sneak attack on Japan caused major damage to their fleet. Pacific colonies were secured by the quickly-mobilized marines, but at this point American luck ran out - the Japanese naval counteroffensive defeated their fleet in the First Battle of Luzon, while attempts to seize Okinawa were repulsed. Soviets meanwhile bogged down in South Korea, after a naval defeat at Sapporo. Stalin decided, while the steady offensive went on, to use his secret weapon... Soon after, Japanese-occupied Sakhalin faced, after an intensive air battle, an airborne attack. The Japanese were surprised by it, and failed to use their opportunity to destroy it in the earnest. Eventually, the Soviets managed to sneak through some reinforcements and to establish a fairly working supply route, enabling their forces to overrun Sakhalin. This seriously frightened the Americans, who accelerated their new attack preparations. It must be noted that by then the Japanese "dunkirked" out of China and Korea. They prepared to face the onslaught on the Home Islands...

It was then that the British intervenned, proposing to hold negotiations. They suggested war reparations and some territorial cessions that the Japanese accepted, as it gave them a peace with honor and a chance for a later revenge. Manchuria was directly joined with the USSR; in Korea, a People's Democratic Republic was set up as a puppet state. South Sakhalin went to USSR as well. USA got the Japanese Pacific island colonies, but to the enragement of the American general public, Taiwan and Okinawa remained Japanese. Stalin viewed this as acceptable, and signed peace, followed by Nationalist China out of which the Japanese withdrew and to which they paid reparations. USA was very bitter about it, but faced with the (rather, lets be true, unlikely) prospect of a war with Japan AND the Entante all alone decided to accept this.

The remaining 40s were filled with minor tension, of which the most notable three included Peruvian military expansion at the behalf of Ecuador, Brazilian-Argentinian war over Uruguay which Brazil won and in which it annexed Uruguay and some borderlands (causing Argentina to improve relations with USSR following a "People's Front" coup) and finally the Italian-Greek war (1941-1942) which ended in an Italian defeat and the loss of the Dodecanese. It was also a time of preparation and brooding. USA was brooding at the Soviets for getting more then they did, at the Entante from preventing it from getting more then the USSR and at Japan for not losing and was preparing to take revenge at whoever seems the weakest - the fleet was being built up rapidly. Brazil and Argentina prepared for rematch. The Entante generally was preparing to face an "inevitable" Soviet attack, and was also trying to unite Europe in its alliance - not very succesfully, as Hungary and Yugoslavia had improving relations with USSR due to large amounts of shared enemies. Stalin, for his part, didn't like the Entante a whole lot for barring the western expansion, and was thus further industrializing and adopting the lessons learned in Manchuria, as well as building up his military quantity-wise. Oh, and he also integrated Mongolia and Sinkiang after there was no Japan left to limit expansion in that direction. Oh, and Japan wasn't happy neither, it has surrendered on the topic of land wars and instead decided to fight a naval-and-aerial war in the future. It was making some approaches towards the Entante, which made the Americans seriously wonder whom did they hate less, the Soviets or the Entante. Thus far, it is a draw.

The British already let go of Iraq, and were now considering creating a parliamentary monarchy bi-lingual state in Jordan (basically Transjordannia and Israel). That project is the most popular in Britain. Not in Jordan, though, where the Arabs are bitterly polarized on the "Jewish Question" - mostly, those in Palestine want to kill the Jews off, while those in Jordan are beginning to lean towards the British version just because it makes the Palestinians mad. Meanwhile, the Egyptians plot.

In 1950, the technologic levels are largely "1943", though the missile, jet plane and nuclear research is coming along VERY slowly. The Entante nuclear project is doing the best, with USA and USSR behind it by a significant margin.

What about the first world war...

Like it would have never started, i mean no communism, no nazism, perhaps no fascism...

What about the first world war...

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Yeah, what about it?

Like it would have never started, i mean no communism, no nazism, perhaps no fascism...

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How can we avoid it being started?

No communism? It, as an ideology, already existed - simply yet to be implemented anywhere. No nazism? It strikes me as a nice compromise between communism and fascism. I think it is quite likely to exist nonetheless. No fascism?! Don't you dare touch fascism, its my favorite 20th century government (in NESes at least)!!!

Well, I meant that no communism in so large scale as it's been now.

I mean no soviet union, because there's no first world war... No nazism, because germany did not loose eny war witch hitler could have used as a... a... umm... reason to start wars, or something...

Or, here's another idea what if the communist revolution in russia would have failed.

Well, I meant that no communism in so large scale as it's been now.

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Again, by then it was pretty widespread. In China, in Germany, in France - in Russia, ofcourse - there already were growing and strenghthening communist parties. Ofcourse, they COULD have been prevented.

I mean no soviet union, because there's no first world war...

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Now, that's not a given... Knowing "Nicky", he will probably still fight somebody and lose, and even if he doesn't fight/lose, I think that without Stolypin AND with Nicholas, there isn't much hope for the Russian EMPIRE.

No nazism, because germany did not loose eny war witch hitler could have used as a... a... umm... reason to start wars, or something...

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Nazism as government system does not neccessarily have anything to do with revanchism. It could have appeared, say, in China or in Russia due to economic reasons and ethnic minorities...

And also, the FRENCH still have an excuse for war. As do the Serbs. As do the Bulgars. As do the Japanese. As do the Greeks. As do the Italians. And so forth.

Or, here's another idea what if the communist revolution in russia would have failed.

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Well, yes, Kornilov could establish a military dictatorship. BUT that doesn't prevent any communist revolutions from taking place elsewhere - in fact, with no discredifying effect of the nastier parts of the Revolution, the Civil War and what followed communism WORLD-WIDE would probably be more popular.

man....you know das, we need a map for a PoD as good as that

man....you know das, we need a map for a PoD as good as that

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For which one? I understand you're talking about the polar bear killing Hitler? I think making a map for it should be easy, really...

Btw, speaking of maps - I have recently finished work on a new Guess-the-PoD one. Well, technically, there are several maps in various time periods. I really like this one, and would appreciate questions about anything on that map, because there are so many interesting nations that appear during it all. Want me to post it/them?

YES! I love planning who I might be in a future NES based on these maps, and making plans I know will soon be shattered into little pieces

Honestly, my favorites so far is the one you had in 1905 with the Coalitions (France, Russia, Britain, Monroe Doctrine nations), this recent one, and the one a bit back thats set in 1960.

And btw, the French socialist and the "father of the revolution" was Jean Jaures, who was NOT killed in 1914 by a French nationalist but merely wounded and who came back to public life in 1916 after the French situation begun to look desperate again.