also as a note, i think I will just cut out the mongol invasion of china; or make the Song Dynasty, as well as the Xixia, and Nan Chao tributary vassals of the mongol empire (the jin will probabley be mongolian toast, and I havent decided on Koreas fate as of yet)
Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Insane_Panda
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Bwahaha.. I think you all know who I want...
Vive le France! Ever since alvarez-communeros NES died I wanted to be France again in this time period! The time is coming close for the grande armee...
Vive le France! Ever since alvarez-communeros NES died I wanted to be France again in this time period! The time is coming close for the grande armee...
das
Regeneration In Process
(Its interesting to note that I posted a smilie in that first sinophobia post, meaning that I was only half-serious)
But anyway, Mongol invasion of WHICH China?
But anyway, Mongol invasion of WHICH China?
das
Regeneration In Process
As for the map... Well, within this week, Azale.
ThomAnder
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- Mar 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,237
Um... If you're gonna make them vassals of the mongol empire, then they should be pretty small... if they're even relatively big (like southern song was in history) they'd put up a fight... they were pretty nationalistic about being han and being ruled by foreign barbs back then.
das said:
Song china will be spared; not because they beat off the mongol, but because 1)the song actually aided the mongols in the conquest of the Jin, by sending them much needed siege engineers, and th emongolks conqoured them because the song turned on them first, and tried to capture a few cities that the mongols had won, such as kaifeng, and Luoyang; this prompted the mongol conquest of Song China @)in this time line, the song wotn turn, and infact, will even accept tributary status under the Mongols (such events are not entirelly unherd of, and severla times china has been put under the yoke of annual forced tributes by the northern tribes) similerlly, so will the Xixxia, the Nan Chao, which were both well orginized non chinese, and non cultural chinse nations on chinas border that prevented the spread of Chinese rule to the boundaries it had known during the Tang dynasty.
this results in smaller mongolia, but the NES isnt supposed to focus on them anyway
ThomAnder said:
I thinking about creating a different dynsaty that ruled during when the tang dynasty historically did; it was onyl during the Tang period did the concept of a "unfied CHina" actually take hold; no tang Dynasty, no unfied concept, no problem with a split up "China"
Okay, as my little scenario for an alt hist slowlly comes together, i suppose I shoudl shed a little detial on the set up, which I plan to be fairlly well developed;
The entire scenario is based on what woudl happen is Belisarius did, indeed, declare himself emperor of the west, and the scenario starts well after this event occurs- and well after the Western Roman empire is not considered to exist, just liek the eastern empire is not considered to exist; instead, it liek the eastern empire is the byzantine empire, the western empire has transformed into the "Kingdom of Ravenna", but unlike its counterpart, is a strong nation; due
A)to the genious of Belisarius estbalishing a very well estbalished military
B)the mighty Liberius, a general in his own right, and THE central figure in Italy from the time of the Odoacer and Theodoric, through Justinian (in our case, Belisarius), and a native Roman; his exploits are great and many, particuraley in the civil realm, and can be described here-http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/liberius.html
C)with a well established state, the Papacy wasnt as free to wiggle around in Italy, ans estbalish itself as a free authority in europe; it holds a great deal of importance in europe, and has a mutuially benificial relationship with ravenna, as they mutually support one another; in the early days ravenna usually exploited the apapcy, when the NES starts, it is ravenna who generally backs up the Popes words
D) a well estbalished string of Important marriges that legitmized the ruling dynasty to everyone involved; I have illustrated this large dynastic tree below
The entire scenario is based on what woudl happen is Belisarius did, indeed, declare himself emperor of the west, and the scenario starts well after this event occurs- and well after the Western Roman empire is not considered to exist, just liek the eastern empire is not considered to exist; instead, it liek the eastern empire is the byzantine empire, the western empire has transformed into the "Kingdom of Ravenna", but unlike its counterpart, is a strong nation; due
A)to the genious of Belisarius estbalishing a very well estbalished military
B)the mighty Liberius, a general in his own right, and THE central figure in Italy from the time of the Odoacer and Theodoric, through Justinian (in our case, Belisarius), and a native Roman; his exploits are great and many, particuraley in the civil realm, and can be described here-http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/liberius.html
C)with a well established state, the Papacy wasnt as free to wiggle around in Italy, ans estbalish itself as a free authority in europe; it holds a great deal of importance in europe, and has a mutuially benificial relationship with ravenna, as they mutually support one another; in the early days ravenna usually exploited the apapcy, when the NES starts, it is ravenna who generally backs up the Popes words
D) a well estbalished string of Important marriges that legitmized the ruling dynasty to everyone involved; I have illustrated this large dynastic tree below
for the most part on the above image, if i did not know the name of a historic entity, I left is blank, and the only non-historic enetiy I have named, that being Numerius, who is credited with changing the western roman empire into the kingdom of Ravenna
now, the tree needs some explination;
the familly trees are colour coded, and to make a full understanding certain marriges are coupled with certian events; first the colour codeing-
Western Roman
Eastern Roman/Byzantine
Ostrogothic
Lombard
Geat
now, the first half is rather easilly explained; Belisarius conqours Italy, and North Africa, accepts rule from the Ostrogoths, and to cement his rule, has his son marry the daughter of the ex-queen of the Ostrogoths, to give him even more legitimacy- his son becomes hier to the throne.
This has a very important impact, in that italy is now spared 18 years of draining gueilla warfare against renegade Ostrogothic nobles, and the Ostrogoths,by then setteld in the far north fo the Italy, and the slowlly being formed native italian military, that Liberius, when Preatorian prefect for Theodoric, had actually begun under the reign of the Ostrogothic kings of Italy and Rome, were sparred form this fighting; combined with the genral ship of Belisarius, these two elemts coudl be formed into a real corps of troops; and thanks to the tax system Liberius had also created under the Ostrogoths, the west was also generating money, without raising taxes.
However, all of this success was lost on the Lombards, who, as historically, invaded Italy, after, witht he aide of (as in history) the Byzantines and the Alans, conqoured the Geats, and subjegated them, the king of the lombards taking a geat as a wife; now, historically, the Lombard king Alboin got himself killed by his wife, who then fled to the exarch of the Byzantines in ravanna, because he had killed her father, mad his skull into a drikign cup, hung it at his belt, and made her drink from it; in this case, she was sparred having to kill him, by dear old Alboin getting himself killed by an early version of what woudl be come the dreaded Italian foot knight; this foot knight just happend to be son of Belisarius son; killing the king of Lombard took the fight out them, and a peace treaty soon ensued, with the grand son of belisarius marrying Rosemund, the former wife of Alboin; the Lombard becam subjects of the western empire, and had to evactuate all lands on the souther side of the danube river; restoring territorial integrity to the western empire in that quarter, and creating a buffer state completelly loyal on the far side of the danube- an invaluble ally when the Slav attempted to push into the region hard not long after.
the grandson of belisarius and his wife, the geat Roseumund had a daughter, who was married off ot the desecendent of Liberius; the two famillies had long been allied, and worked closelly together, and this was seen as the natural next step; particuraley since, with two generation of Barbarian blood behind the daughter, she didnt seem all the Roman, while the descendent of Liberius, by contrast, was full blooded; they married, and the child, Numerius, prooved ot be a capable ruler; changing the national language to the ever spreading italian dialect of Latin, as well as constituting other assorted reforms, he changed the western Roman empire, in both form and name, to that of the Kingdom of Ravenna, whom had a name, a culture, and a ruler suitible to all involoved.
by the tiem the scenario starts, the Postrogoths and lobards are seperate Duchies ruled by Ravenna, and Ravenna has gon and occupied much of th eformer Illyrian territory of old rome, preventign it from Slavic incursion; north africa, after a tiem when Ravneese rule was confined to little more then Carthage, has now, after the first crusade, recaptrued western northe africa, and maintians good relation with the islamic power, the muslim emierate of Tripoli located on thier eastern border
now, the tree needs some explination;
the familly trees are colour coded, and to make a full understanding certain marriges are coupled with certian events; first the colour codeing-
Western Roman
Eastern Roman/Byzantine
Ostrogothic
Lombard
Geat
now, the first half is rather easilly explained; Belisarius conqours Italy, and North Africa, accepts rule from the Ostrogoths, and to cement his rule, has his son marry the daughter of the ex-queen of the Ostrogoths, to give him even more legitimacy- his son becomes hier to the throne.
This has a very important impact, in that italy is now spared 18 years of draining gueilla warfare against renegade Ostrogothic nobles, and the Ostrogoths,by then setteld in the far north fo the Italy, and the slowlly being formed native italian military, that Liberius, when Preatorian prefect for Theodoric, had actually begun under the reign of the Ostrogothic kings of Italy and Rome, were sparred form this fighting; combined with the genral ship of Belisarius, these two elemts coudl be formed into a real corps of troops; and thanks to the tax system Liberius had also created under the Ostrogoths, the west was also generating money, without raising taxes.
However, all of this success was lost on the Lombards, who, as historically, invaded Italy, after, witht he aide of (as in history) the Byzantines and the Alans, conqoured the Geats, and subjegated them, the king of the lombards taking a geat as a wife; now, historically, the Lombard king Alboin got himself killed by his wife, who then fled to the exarch of the Byzantines in ravanna, because he had killed her father, mad his skull into a drikign cup, hung it at his belt, and made her drink from it; in this case, she was sparred having to kill him, by dear old Alboin getting himself killed by an early version of what woudl be come the dreaded Italian foot knight; this foot knight just happend to be son of Belisarius son; killing the king of Lombard took the fight out them, and a peace treaty soon ensued, with the grand son of belisarius marrying Rosemund, the former wife of Alboin; the Lombard becam subjects of the western empire, and had to evactuate all lands on the souther side of the danube river; restoring territorial integrity to the western empire in that quarter, and creating a buffer state completelly loyal on the far side of the danube- an invaluble ally when the Slav attempted to push into the region hard not long after.
the grandson of belisarius and his wife, the geat Roseumund had a daughter, who was married off ot the desecendent of Liberius; the two famillies had long been allied, and worked closelly together, and this was seen as the natural next step; particuraley since, with two generation of Barbarian blood behind the daughter, she didnt seem all the Roman, while the descendent of Liberius, by contrast, was full blooded; they married, and the child, Numerius, prooved ot be a capable ruler; changing the national language to the ever spreading italian dialect of Latin, as well as constituting other assorted reforms, he changed the western Roman empire, in both form and name, to that of the Kingdom of Ravenna, whom had a name, a culture, and a ruler suitible to all involoved.
by the tiem the scenario starts, the Postrogoths and lobards are seperate Duchies ruled by Ravenna, and Ravenna has gon and occupied much of th eformer Illyrian territory of old rome, preventign it from Slavic incursion; north africa, after a tiem when Ravneese rule was confined to little more then Carthage, has now, after the first crusade, recaptrued western northe africa, and maintians good relation with the islamic power, the muslim emierate of Tripoli located on thier eastern border
das
Regeneration In Process
Actually, the idea of an united China dates back to Confucius, and was by the time of the Sui Dynasty too influential.
das said:
not according to John Haywood, Andrew Jotisckhky, and Sean McGlynn; if it dose date back to then, it obviouslly wasnt as influential, or entrenched as you woudl make it out to be, considering how many times Chine was split before the song Dynasty.
das
Regeneration In Process
Do note that it was also split after it as well. Ofcourse, not as often - but there was not as much time AFTER Song Dynasty then BEFORE it. In that regard the Mongols were important, ofcourse.
das said:
the precedent is rather clear; even if confuscios says a split china is a no no, it didnt become widelly spread that it apllied to china as a whole until the tang dynsasty; perhaps people felt more regionally connected until the tang, which estbalished itself after large amounts of the Northern population, from th emore classic chinese states moved south, so spreading the ideal fo Idea of a unified china whith them; this woudl make sense all things considered.
das
Regeneration In Process
Actually, during the Song times (i.e. after the Tang times) the division of China widened (the Jin Chinese and all...). The united China and all was well in place when the Qin united it, and it was strengthened under the Han Dynasty.
das said:
thats not quite true; the Jin were a orgionally a steppe peoples whi invaded and conqured Northern China- they eventually culturaley converted, but that dosetn stop the fact that as invaders, you use them as a legitimite division of "China" in fact that we're arguing, which would be internal division within China (by that time, defined exclusivlly by Song dynasty territory) itself; if the song had collapsed into varrying states warring with eachother, then you would have a point; but it didnt, partially because of the cultural cavets that were instituted during the Tang dynasty, and reaffirmed byt he coming and institionizing of the Song empire.
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC: Deja vu... I thought I already replied to this twice. Ah well...
The only reason Song China didn't fall apart into warring states was that the Mongols killed them off before they could.
Okay, this is a rather low-quality continuation, but I want to get to the 19th century already.
IC:
The events of the last two decades of the 18th century were quite ground-breaking indeed, even outside of North America. And it all had something to do with rebels.
For example, the Spanish fleet was decimated at Havana by the British one, and the British naval superiority made for a lot of trouble when in 1782 Tupac Amanru II, the descendant of a Sapa-Inca, led a joint Creole-Incan rebellion against a sadistic governor (speaking of sadism, Marquis de Sade was pretty much like in OTL here). The rebellion was very popular, and eventually the Spanish had to de facto acknowledge the new Incan Empire of Peru (but it was only limited to Peru, ofcourse). This was a very rude awakening for the Spanish colonial administration (much ruder then the American rebellion against the French), and numerous reforms were undertaken so that it could never happen again in other Spanish colonies. The reforms actually worked. Some of them did. In some places. Portugal followed suit.
The defeat in the American War and the worsening economic situation caused the Risings of 1791 in France, a result being some moderate increase of the Parlement's power.
One of the few non-rebel related events (or rather trends) of the time was that Burgundy, Austria and Hannover were, through bribes, bullying, inheritance and other "peaceful" methods, taking over little German nations and parts of little German nations. Ofcourse, such nations were in large supply, and the process was slow...
Corsica was also up in rebellion against the Austrians. The infamous Corsican pirate, Napoleon Buonoparte, was especially damaging to the Austrian commerce. Ofcourse, his greatest days of glory were yet to come in the 18th century...
During the American War, the Russians had their hands free. As in 1788, the Swedes tried to retake Viborg, the Russians not only fought them back, but also advanced somewhat into Finland. But eventually, the attack stalemated. So the Russians, annoyed with the Swedes, decided to create a buffer state, an independant Finland with the western border on the river Pite. The king was picked from the House of Nassau, which at that point was forced out of its territory by Burgundy. King William I (former Count Wilhelm VI) was a very pro-Russian ruler.
Also during the aforementioned American War, some Poles rebelled against the growing Russian domination. They killed Poniatowski, too. The Empress was not amused; Russian forces overran Poland; little Alexander Romanov, the heir to the Russian Throne, became the new king of Poland under the regency of General Orlov. France and Spain were too busy, while the other Brussels Treaty nations felt themselves to be not strong enough to fight Russia and Austria all by themselves. Eventually, ofcourse, Catherine died. Alexander I became the Emperor of Russia and the King of Poland, officially uniting the two nations into one.
Georgians rose up against an Ottoman attempt at conquest in 1789. Ottomans were beginning to guess where this was going, and they were right - Russians came in, took Georgia, and the Ottomans were "lucky to get away so easily". The need for military reforms was increasingly obvious, but the Ottoman Empire was by then quite inefficient, and the reforms were unlikely to come in time. Not even the previous defeat of the Ottoman expedition to Syria in 1788 (btw, Egypt was holding on to its ground for the moment, but it was increasingly unstable) changed that.
In Africa, the Xhosa tribes and the Dutch colonists fought a series of inconclusive Suurveld Wars. In India, the Sikhs were on the rise with French assistance; France also allied with Mysore and Bengal, but was engaged in constant warfare with the Marathans.
Oh, and a rebellion was put down on Taiwan. And far to the south of Taiwan, a Dutch explorer called Pieter Rupertsen discovered gold in the heretofore ignored huge island (or continent?) of Greater Tasmania...
The only reason Song China didn't fall apart into warring states was that the Mongols killed them off before they could.
Okay, this is a rather low-quality continuation, but I want to get to the 19th century already.
IC:
The events of the last two decades of the 18th century were quite ground-breaking indeed, even outside of North America. And it all had something to do with rebels.
For example, the Spanish fleet was decimated at Havana by the British one, and the British naval superiority made for a lot of trouble when in 1782 Tupac Amanru II, the descendant of a Sapa-Inca, led a joint Creole-Incan rebellion against a sadistic governor (speaking of sadism, Marquis de Sade was pretty much like in OTL here). The rebellion was very popular, and eventually the Spanish had to de facto acknowledge the new Incan Empire of Peru (but it was only limited to Peru, ofcourse). This was a very rude awakening for the Spanish colonial administration (much ruder then the American rebellion against the French), and numerous reforms were undertaken so that it could never happen again in other Spanish colonies. The reforms actually worked. Some of them did. In some places. Portugal followed suit.
The defeat in the American War and the worsening economic situation caused the Risings of 1791 in France, a result being some moderate increase of the Parlement's power.
One of the few non-rebel related events (or rather trends) of the time was that Burgundy, Austria and Hannover were, through bribes, bullying, inheritance and other "peaceful" methods, taking over little German nations and parts of little German nations. Ofcourse, such nations were in large supply, and the process was slow...
Corsica was also up in rebellion against the Austrians. The infamous Corsican pirate, Napoleon Buonoparte, was especially damaging to the Austrian commerce. Ofcourse, his greatest days of glory were yet to come in the 18th century...
During the American War, the Russians had their hands free. As in 1788, the Swedes tried to retake Viborg, the Russians not only fought them back, but also advanced somewhat into Finland. But eventually, the attack stalemated. So the Russians, annoyed with the Swedes, decided to create a buffer state, an independant Finland with the western border on the river Pite. The king was picked from the House of Nassau, which at that point was forced out of its territory by Burgundy. King William I (former Count Wilhelm VI) was a very pro-Russian ruler.
Also during the aforementioned American War, some Poles rebelled against the growing Russian domination. They killed Poniatowski, too. The Empress was not amused; Russian forces overran Poland; little Alexander Romanov, the heir to the Russian Throne, became the new king of Poland under the regency of General Orlov. France and Spain were too busy, while the other Brussels Treaty nations felt themselves to be not strong enough to fight Russia and Austria all by themselves. Eventually, ofcourse, Catherine died. Alexander I became the Emperor of Russia and the King of Poland, officially uniting the two nations into one.
Georgians rose up against an Ottoman attempt at conquest in 1789. Ottomans were beginning to guess where this was going, and they were right - Russians came in, took Georgia, and the Ottomans were "lucky to get away so easily". The need for military reforms was increasingly obvious, but the Ottoman Empire was by then quite inefficient, and the reforms were unlikely to come in time. Not even the previous defeat of the Ottoman expedition to Syria in 1788 (btw, Egypt was holding on to its ground for the moment, but it was increasingly unstable) changed that.
In Africa, the Xhosa tribes and the Dutch colonists fought a series of inconclusive Suurveld Wars. In India, the Sikhs were on the rise with French assistance; France also allied with Mysore and Bengal, but was engaged in constant warfare with the Marathans.
Oh, and a rebellion was put down on Taiwan. And far to the south of Taiwan, a Dutch explorer called Pieter Rupertsen discovered gold in the heretofore ignored huge island (or continent?) of Greater Tasmania...
das said:
A)even if the mongol had never appeared at all, Song china showed NO signs of collapse, and indeed, as the Jin (Jurchen/manchurians) rebelled from the Mongolian Khitan-Liao kingdom, which controlled Northern China and Manchuria, and forced the Song kingdom back to a point south of the Hangzhou, it showed NO signs of either disporder, or collapse, indeed, it remaine dmroe then strong enough to be able to hold the Jin Manchruian kingdom off entirelly from its attempts at further conquest
B)the sopgn dynasty itself was establsihed by unfiying the the multiple kingdoms that had split up after the fall of the tang dynasty, through mil;itary effort, and the cultural caveats that had sprung up durign the tang Dynasty
Insane_Panda
Deity
My god das, France better get Napoleon... 
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