Yeah, that pretty much it from what I gathered from the video. One of the issues in it was the fact that the disease kept spreading and made a domino effect. I was wondering if that may become an issue in or mod where disease could get so out of control where it becomes more like computer virus than a real life virus.
Yeah, that pretty much it from what I gathered from the video. One of the issues in it was the fact that the disease kept spreading and made a domino effect. I was wondering if that may become an issue in or mod where disease could get so out of control where it becomes more like computer virus than a real life virus.
I am slightly concerned to see TB adding new mechanics for disease, which do not integrate with the property system, at the same time as DH is (and has been for some time) developing the unhealthiness mod. These need to be unified - it would be a disaster to wind up with two independent disease systems IMO.
I am slightly concerned to see TB adding new mechanics for disease, which do not integrate with the property system, at the same time as DH is (and has been for some time) developing the unhealthiness mod. These need to be unified - it would be a disaster to wind up with two independent disease systems IMO.
If you'll refer to the Modder's documentation on that subject, you'll see that it does fully integrate with the property system. There may be some ways to make that integration deeper to allow other properties to share similar dynamics. But it does tie into whatever he does here just fine in general.
However, note that these adjustments were made after DH had declared this project to be in Hydro's court. Then after I'd completed work in the code to enable greater functionality in disease design, he suddenly came back to work on this side.
But I do share some same concerns along the same lines where developing diseases without any consideration for how they could play into the added functions could make for a tough basis to work off of and I think it'd be preferable if we designed our diseases with that in mind.
On Koshling's suggestion I have set the AIWeight for the Disease property to zero. Once the Diseases are fully implemented, that will need to be changed, otherwise the AI will have serious issues. Just a heads up for anyone/everyone adding this system.
There are some diseases which don't quite fit with the disease mechanic currently suggested or fully integrate with the property system. Diseases which are not contagious human-human like malaria do not model well on the disease system as it stands. I am not totally convinced that anthrax does either. There are two other specific diseases which are "special" in that I am not convinced that the property system is totally the correct mechanism - Smallpox which is extreamly bad for a populous that has never had it, and a couple of the soldier diseases that only occur when you have large numbers of soldiers at war in a small area.
Should I remove "Disease - Malaria" for now (v27 release)? It double counts terrain unhealthiness and changes to that need much discussion. Also I am not convinced that what I done links with the other diseases properly.
Personally, I'd at least like to have an open discussion on its full workup as you have it now (the whole of the process.) I think we can probably work out most of the same considerations into the way our system works now (or will once the full processing on that disease system is refined properly.)
I have a plan to make it possible for diseases to spread to those units and cities that are vulnerable based on properties on the plots themselves. I think Malaria could work through that system into the whole (soon to be generic) mechanism quite nicely. My goal overall is to make it possible for every consideration you want to include in the design of that disease to be fully expressed with a high degree of accuracy and tie into the rest of the structure seamlessly at the same time.
So the more I know about what you're trying to achieve there, the more I can consider all the angles, many of which I'm sure are already fairly well covered by our current potential.
Malaria is a fairly simple disease to represent in Civ IV game turns and can be used to replace most of the unhealthiness currently given by terrains.
Malaria causes the following
unhealthiness
reduced production due to the lethargy the disease causes
slowed growth as cities get bigger due to increased mortality
I think I can replace all the unhealthiness from jungles and flood plains and most of the unhealthiness from marsh with this game disease called Malaria.
So do you have those penalties listed there attached to the actual (terrain) features as automatic penalties from those features for the city that has them in its radius? Or is it just that these features make it more possible for the disease to exist in the city?
As stated earlier, I was going to work out a way for a Disease to source from a terrain or terrain feature (and possibly even eventually by biome or ecosphere as some diseases that exist in some 'jungles' may not exist in others. For example, Rabies exists in most forests but does NOT exist in Australian forests.)
When sourced from a plot, it gives a constant potential for the city that has that plot in its radius to pick up the disease. It also gives the potential for a unit on that plot to pick up that disease Affliction.
This element hasn't been added yet but is very high on my agenda. Malaria would be a very good fit for this sort of sourcing.
The easiest mechanism I can use to replicate malaria is to have buildings with the desired affects which are given free to a city as it grows. I can also use buildings to represent the actions taken to mitigate the disease. Events can be used to reflect minor and major outbreaks of the disease.
I understand Malaria is medically combatable. Is there any crude methods of assisting those with Malaria to overcome it? In otherwords, can any generic health care giver at any tech level be somewhat capable of even helping a victim or helping the community deal with the disease? Is it possible to fight it off with a healthy immune system even when exposed to a source of the disease (which I understand is Mosquitos right?)
Part of what I'm getting at here is this: the generic disease property existing in a city is the level of vulnerability among its citizens. A low disease property is a very healthy overall population in terms of its immune systems and community support and health care network. Can this quality, if lower, create a resistance to malaria, or if higher, make malaria more likely to be a problem?
If that kind of overall health and well-being of the populace has anything to do with resisting an outbreak, then we'd want to set the iminimum value of the disease (as listed as a building object in the property system) as higher than 0. If its pretty much an irresistible disease when exposed to its source, the value would be at or lower than 0.
What is the chance of a moderately healthy person (or population) catching the disease when exposed to an environment in which it lurks? (In best estimate % terms) This would be its iCommunicability on the promotion end. (Mind you I'm not suggesting to program this into xml yet as THIS will likely become a more generic property based definition.)
This is where we'd start to define a disease under this mechanism.
Disease Buildings
As a city grows it will usually get a free building that is associated with its new population size. However cities without a malaria terrain feature may get malaria due to an event. When they reach the next size category they will get the next up malaria instead. So if a pop 15 city gets malaria t will get the "Disease - Malaria 3" when it reaches population 24.
Population is a base source of increasing Disease Property value. Therefore, in a sense, THAT part is factored in. You have an increasing value of severity in your buildings here, and that's something I still have to allow for but do intend to. In this intended system, when a city suffers an outbreak of a given disease initially, it suffers the first level of severity only. Then if it suffers another outbreak before it has overcome the first, it increases to another level of severity.
However, each level of severity requires a worse Disease Property level to suffer another layer of that disease outbreak, thus it takes the city getting overall generically more and more vulnerable (the Generic Disease property) for more severity to kick in.
In the current system this can be expressed with multiple buildings that 'replace' the lower levels and emerge at higher iMinimum values, and this should still create the basis of the more advanced mechanism that uses iMinimum as the base 50% chance point rather than an absolute point of emergence.
Then, whenever a disease has been overcome, it just means its taking a step down in severity and losing that higher level building to replace it with the lower level one again. Once all layers have been overcome, the disease is gone from the city.
One function in this all is that with every overcome, a city may gain some Tolerance for a given disease. Surely Malaria would have a Tolerance gain with every overcome, given that indigenous peoples seem to live freely in the jungles without much concern for it. But if I'm wrong, its just as easy to not give any tolerance factor. Additionally, Tolerance can also be set to erode over time which can lead to cycles of outbreaks (losing 1 from the tolerance value every round.) I'm not sure if Malaria works this way on populations or if it leaves a lasting resistance on the people who have long been culturally exposed to it.
Outbreaks do not require events. Its an every round check. Even under the current, more simplified disease mechanism, it checks for static emergence on iMinimum. And to currently represent the disease's prerequisite of having Jungle, Flood Plain or Marsh in a tropical zone, you can still make those building prereqs as I believe it should be checking against those prereqs before autobuilding the building. (If its not yet, it needs to quickly be updated to do so!)
Population loss events can be utilized if necessary, but extremely high values of unhealth should account for that on more severe levels of the disease in a current outbreak status. If its not causing starvation and it should, then its probably not strong enough. Again... unhealth under this C2C system would be a direct representation of mortality rate as it combats 'food' which is just as much a representation of 'birth rate' as it is of actual food storage.
Otherwise, most of these building definitions are a fairly good fit for representing Malaria in greater or lesser degrees:
City Size 1
. Building "Disease - Malaria 0"
. Requires - terrain feature near city - Jungle, Flood Plain or Marsh Or near the tropics
. Affect - none. Small chance of "Event - Malaria I"
. Building "Disease - Malaria 1"
. Requires - terrain feature near city - Jungle, Flood Plain or Marsh and near the tropics
. Affect - +1 . +30% more food needed to grow. Small chance of "Event - Malaria I"
City Size 3
. Building "Disease - Malaria 3"
. Requires - "Disease - Malaria 1"
. Affect - +1 , +5% more food needed to grow, -5% production, Increased chance of "Event - Malaria I"
City Size 6
. Building "Disease - Malaria 6"
. Requires - "Disease - Malaria 3"
. Affect - +1 , +5% more food needed to grow, -5% production, Small chance of "Event - Malaria II"
City Size 12
. Building "Disease - Malaria 12"
. Requires - "Disease - Malaria 6"
. Affect - +2 , +10% more food needed to grow, -10% production, Chance of both events increases
City Size 24
. Building "Disease - Malaria 24"
. Requires - "Disease - Malaria 12"
. Affect - +2 , +10% more food needed to grow, -10% production, Chance of both events increases
City Size 48
. Building "Disease - Malaria 48"
. Requires - "Disease - Malaria 24"
. Affect - +3 , +15% more food needed to grow, -10% production, High chance of both events.
Most of these buildings require a tech and a "Disease - Malaria" building to be present.
Spoiler:
Building - "Disease - Malaria - Bed Nets"
. Requires - Tech "Medicine", "Disease - Malaria 3"
. Cost - low
. Affect - +2 healthy, -5% more food needed to grow, +5% production. Reduces chance of both events.
Building - "Disease - Malaria - Fly Screens"
. Requires - Tech "Medicine", "Disease - Malaria 12", "Disease - Bed Nets"
. Cost - low
. Affect - +2 healthy, -15% more food needed to grow, +15% production. Reduces chance of both events.
Building - "Disease - Malaria - Eradication"
. Requires - Tech "Pesticides", "Disease - Malaria 24",
. Cost - high
. Affect - +2 healthy, -10% more food needed to grow, +10% production. Reduces chance of both events.
Building - "Disease - Malaria - Cure"
. Requires - Tech "Future Medicine", "Disease - Malaria 48"
. Cost - very high unless cure found by this civ when it is free.
. Affect - +3 healthy, -15% more food needed to grow, +15% production. No chance of either events.
World Project - Cure for Malaria
. Requires - Tech "Future Medicine"
. Affect - Removes all "Disease - Malaria xxxx" from this nations cities and future cities.
National Wonder - Cure Malaria
. Requires - World Project - Cure for Malaria to have been built. Can't be built bu nation hat has built the World project.
. Affect - Removes all "Disease - Malaria xxxx" from this nations cities and future cities.
Most of these are completely representable with tags in the advanced disease setup (which, again, will be soon genericalized as much as possible but will all still be available.) These new tags can establish all varieties of methods useable to combat not just generic disease property as a whole (which would mostly be a matter of preventative medicine) but also directly combat specific diseases themselves. Buildings, techs, unit abilities, all can be made to target both generic and specific disease issues, both from recovery and resistance considerations. A disease can even be made obsolete entirely.
I really want to get that conversion done quickly and soon. Its one of my highest priorities. Until then, I'm rather neutral on how this is addressed for now, though Hydro already has some diseases utilizing the current generic property now so whether the current structure you've put in place is 'harmonious' with that is questionable. Nevertheless, I hate seeing any efforts go to waste so I'm happy to support it remaining in the mod until I can get the system able to manage malaria just as effectively.
As far as I know a healthy person is just as likely to get the disease as an unhealthy one. Although someone taking quniene(sp?) is much less likely to catch it. One reason Gin and Tonic is so popular. The problem with malaria is that it not only affects the people with the disease but the people that support them and the community at large because they are not always out of action with the disease but are also less affective when they are not out of action.
So that would make it an extremely low base outbreak (iminimum) for those buildings. I'd suggest each building in the increasing chain be set to 50 higher than the first, which, based off that assessment, should be pretty low, like possibly even negative (-50 perhaps?).
Additionally, since it also makes it harder for the health workers, I'd say that it should penalize the city's Aid value (which I need to make sure can't go into negative... another item on the list now...). It should also, as many diseases would, as a building, add a little Generic Disease value to the city as its taxing the populace's immune systems. Unfortunately, Aid would only be useful under the Advanced Disease resolution system so this effect wouldn't be perfectly representable outside of its use.
The quinine would enter the game as an equipment (for units) that would add a Fortitude modifier towards Malaria. It would be a bonus outbreak modifier from alcohol access or whatever resource quinine is sourced from... (don't know much about the stuff actually... might make for a good manufactured resource that stems from a special building that can generate it upon certain tech/local resource prereqs.)
Malaria would most likely NOT have any trade communicability rating either since trade would have little to do with another city suffering an outbreak since it can't really spread too easily from one human to another.
And the promotion side of it (for the Advanced Mechanism) would also impact a unit's Aid ability among other effects. It would NOT, however, be spreadable from unit to city or from unit to unit as it is ONLY picked up from either a city that has the outbreak of malaria in progress (to keep it restricted to where the mosquitos, one of the prereqs of the malaria buildings would be) or from the terrain itself if such units go mucking about in jungle, swamp or along floodplains (I'll be looking to make it possible for the communicability on a given disease to vary here, thus floodplains wouldn't be quite as likely. And modifiers by climate or region type could create gradually reducing likelihoods or a complete elimination of possibility based on those regional factors.)
And I think Gin and Tonic might be popular regardless
The screenshot below shows Dysentery kicking in at 50 with +3 along with Scurvy another disease that kicks in at 50. Also the Common Cold kicks in at 1.
For the early game especially game start this is too low an insert level for all 3 and too much . So everyone in your city at game start has a cold, and very quickly has scurvy and the trots.
The common cold should come in at 20 level. Scurvy can stay at 50 but dysentery should be a level 100 disease, Unless the amount of is reduced. Yes, there are 2 + available for it but not until well into the game (@ Sanitation and Modern Sanitation ). It's too strong at 50 level.
The screenshot below shows Dysentery kicking in at 50 with +3 along with Scurvy another disease that kicks in at 50. Also the Common Cold kicks in at 1. So everyone in your city at game start has a cold.
For the early game especially game start this is too low an insert level for all 3 and too much .
The common cold should come in at 20 level. Scurvy can stay at 50 but dysentery should be a level 100 disease, Unless the amount of is reduced. Yes, there are 2 + available for it but not until well into the game (@ Sanitation and Modern Sanitation ). It's too strong at 50 level.
It's not at all forgotten. It's a major task for the next cycle (unless multi-maps gets to a critical point of forward movement) to complete the programming issues that remain for the combat mod options on this.
The screenshot below shows Dysentery kicking in at 50 with +3 along with Scurvy another disease that kicks in at 50. Also the Common Cold kicks in at 1.
For the early game especially game start this is too low an insert level for all 3 and too much . So everyone in your city at game start has a cold, and very quickly has scurvy and the trots.
The common cold should come in at 20 level. Scurvy can stay at 50 but dysentery should be a level 100 disease, Unless the amount of is reduced. Yes, there are 2 + available for it but not until well into the game (@ Sanitation and Modern Sanitation ). It's too strong at 50 level.
To echo the above, Dysentry in particular showing up at 50 disease with +3 , as it does right now, is too much. I find I get past 50 disease within the first 20 or so turns (@ Epic/Immortal), when there is pretty much nothing I can do to increase . My suggestion would be to have Dysentry show up at 75 disease, and cause +2 . I find that by the time I get to 75 disease, I have researched a couple of buildings that I can combat it with, & +2 means that the effects of Dysentry disappear at Modern Sanitation, which makes sense to me.
More generally, would it be possible to make Disease work more like Flammability - i.e. the amount of Disease (as well as a random variable) is a trigger for events that cause disease outbreaks to occur for set amounts of time in cities. As it is presently, diseases are a constant presence as long as your Disease level is above the required threshold - indeed, your city is likely to have the Common Cold (only requires 1 Disease) for the entire game. By having disease outbreaks be tied to events that have a random element instead, it adds a degree of variability and unpredictability, plus it can better reflect how disease actually operates - i.e. periodic outbreaks instead of a constant presence, plus perhaps the events could include variables that allows disease to 'spread' from one city to another.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
. +30% more food needed to grow. Small chance of "Event - Malaria I"
available for it but not until well into the game (@ Sanitation and Modern Sanitation ). It's too strong at 50 level.
