Civ 6 drops below Civ 5 on Steam

Where did you get the idea that I think they're not in it for the money? Of course they are.

You equated the designer's goals as the project's goal. So I figured since you made that error you didn't know how basic capitalism works.

A designer's goals are irrelevant to the project's goals. If the designer's goals do not fit the project goals, it will not be approved/funded.

You are still crystal-ball gazing when you claim that Civ6 is somehow doomed to failure in the long-term
after being out for less than 2 months.

Don't extrapolate other's comments onto me. I never said Civ6 will fail.
 
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I wouldn't be too worried. This is pretty much the standard cycle for Civ (and other similar games). Their older versions have a loyal playerbase (or people who just own the game and don't want to pay for the next one yet), and the new one has teething issues and such. Over time the numbers pick up as patches, DLC and expansions improve the game and update the content.

Also, Firaxis know that extending the life of Civ5 isn't profitable long term. It is always much better to release the next version before the last one has died off. Virtually every successful company follows this pattern. When you release a new product it grows (often following the same pattern people are pointing out here, where the previous version still outdoes the new for quite a while). Eventually it will peak and begin declining due to sales saturation, disinterest etc. You keep it fresh for a little while, by adding DLC or whatever, but these dont stop the overall decline. Before that decline becomes too significant you release the next version, as this keeps things fresh and makes it easier to bring over existing customers. Having your product and/or name out of circulation for too long is potentially disastrous.

Apple and Google are both masters of this. Microsoft do too, but used to be even better at it.


I'll finish your sentence.....

"and catered for the casual gamer to make money rather than making a good game for the traditional fanbase."

Oh..... isn't that what 2K is doing?

As you point out games need money. Developers just cannot make a game for the love of it these days (unless it is a low budget indie game), as developers live on the knife edge. Unfortunately casual gamers are the biggest market. Especially as the glory days of the TBS are seen as being in the past, so financers are even more reluctant to drop large amounts on hardcore TBS games.
I would love a deep, engrossing Civilization title but it's just not on the cards unfortunately.

And while it sucks, it's not Firaxis' fault. They are a small time developer in a horribly high risk/low return industry, and each major release is a big risk that could end the company.


Did they REALLY thrive?
- CivSocial: failed.
- Sid's Dinosaurs: scrapped.
- CivRev2: failed outside a couple minor markets.
- Civ4 Colonisation: luke warm reception didn't do as expected, support scrapped.
- CivBE: luke warm reception didn't do as expected, support scrapped.
- Lost an entire team to BHG.
- Lost an entire team to Oxide.
- Lost an entire team to Stardock.
- Lost an entire team to other indies such as Mohawk.
- Firaxis had to sell out to Activision, and then to 2K just to stay afloat with enough financial backing.

Games development is a tough industry. There are many more failures to successes. No one company can boast continuous success.

Isn't it quite common for developers to have entire team changes with great regularity. The industry is prone to such things due to the development cycle. So people get dropped after a game's release and then others get hired (or re-hired) as they really kick into gear with the next one.
Also note that games like Colonization and BE would have been much cheaper to make, and less resource intensive as they were using what already existed with tweaks. But, it also looks and sounds (based on what employees have said at times) that they do operate under significant constraints so can't always achieve their end goal.

And this is why it's important to not pay for unfinished games. Selling and marketing garbage half-baked releases makes money. Fixing them after the fact does not. So if you remove the incentive to release finished games, you get crap games that the developer forgets about as soon as they collect the money.
Actually, it's not that simple. Because games are so expensive to make while costing exactly the same now as they did 2 decades ago, it is getting harder for most developers to release games with the full range of features. They need to streamline and simplify to be able to release the game, then once they make money (which directly gives them more cash, but also allows them to chase further investment) they can then add more to it.
Completely cutting off support to these smaller developers would be disasterous. It already has been. How many of those awesome, creative developers that we grew up with and loved (and who really made gaming what it is today) still exist?? Instead we have EA and ActivisionBlizzard who dominate the gaming market and we get the same games updated and re-released every year.
 
And while it sucks, it's not Firaxis' fault.

Note that I was talking about 2K making the call to move to a casual gamer focused game, not Firaxis. If anything, I am a strong defender of Firaxis, but do not like what 2K has forced Firaxis to do due to 2K owning the purse strings.

Isn't it quite common for developers to have entire team changes with great regularity. The industry is prone to such things due to the development cycle. So people get dropped after a game's release and then others get hired (or re-hired) as they really kick into gear with the next one.

The team movements at Firaxis have been hostile though.
- In 2000 a big chunk of the Civ3 dev team up and left to form BHG with Brian Reynolds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Huge_Games
- Between 2005 and 2008 a big chunk of the Civ4 team seeped over to Stardock.
- In 2007 Soren took a couple of people to EA to work on Spore, leaving Civ4 dev team.
- In 2013 a big chunk of the Civ5 dev team up and left to form Oxide with Stardock CEO Brad Wardell. http://www.oxidegames.com/about/

Firaxis is prone to hostile team movements for some reason. The entire company was founded from a hostile team movement from Microprose in 1996.
 
Complete speculation, but given the age of the company and the obvious generational ties (Meier to Johnson, etc) I'd imagine it's due to personal "loyalties". These arise as a matter of fact over time even in a completely professional workplace (we're only human; we like people like us more than people not like us, etc), and so you'll see 'groups' forming, for better or worse.

Of course, it could also be down to market expectations and the hope of a better job situation. Given the unreliability of job security in games development (non-games tech is seen as "safe" to give some perspective, haha), people simply could have been taking the best chances they could at the time.

Again, complete speculation.
 
Actually, it's not that simple. Because games are so expensive to make while costing exactly the same now as they did 2 decades ago, it is getting harder for most developers to release games with the full range of features. They need to streamline and simplify to be able to release the game, then once they make money (which directly gives them more cash, but also allows them to chase further investment) they can then add more to it.
Completely cutting off support to these smaller developers would be disasterous. It already has been. How many of those awesome, creative developers that we grew up with and loved (and who really made gaming what it is today) still exist?? Instead we have EA and ActivisionBlizzard who dominate the gaming market and we get the same games updated and re-released every year.
Don't forget inflation!

The sticker price may be the same today as a few decades ago, but when accounting for inflation, video games are cheaper than before!
 
Difficulty to say if this is to be expected as we don't have comparable data for Civ IV/Civ V. There may have been a similar fall off until G&K was released

The grand unifying law of "THEY RUINED IT" always prevails. Civ X+1 is always worse than Civ X until Civ X+2 is released, at which time it could never replace the masterpiece that is Civ X+1.
 
The grand unifying law of "THEY RUINED IT" always prevails. Civ X+1 is always worse than Civ X until Civ X+2 is released, at which time it could never replace the masterpiece that is Civ X+1.
This reminds me of Saturday Night Live casts. The current cast is never as good as the former cast, until new cast members come in and suddenly the previously "current" iteration is considered iconic.
 
I still adore Civ1, due to its simplicity, not complexity.

All mechanics whe straithforward, easy to grasp, but take time to master.

AI is dumb but combat system is random enough that high AI unit numbers can compensate (rush and overwhelm). Also runaway civs were high posdibility giving extra level of fun.

Diplomcy was simple, but effective.

And visual touches were great to make game not look like boring spreadsheets.
 
I'd consider Civ 1 the gold standard. If a Civ version can't match it, it's below par. And sometimes 'more' isn't better.
 
The grand unifying law of "THEY RUINED IT" always prevails. Civ X+1 is always worse than Civ X until Civ X+2 is released, at which time it could never replace the masterpiece that is Civ X+1.

Nice theory.

Except Civ got better each iteration till Civ4 BtS, and then it's gotten worse each iteration since.
 
Don't forget inflation!

The sticker price may be the same today as a few decades ago, but when accounting for inflation, video games are cheaper than before!

The prices of new ones I've looked up have gone up significantly in the past two decades; roughly equal to inflation.
 
Nice theory.

Except Civ got better each iteration till Civ4 BtS, and then it's gotten worse each iteration since.

Beyond the Sword was a buggy mess that required community patches to be made playable. Was great once the unofficial patches became official though, too bad that it was well over a year after the release.

The funny thing is that there were people going on about the same kind of thing when Civ V was at this point in its lifecycle, the few who were edgy enough to still love Civ III (ugh...). At that point in Civ IV's lifecycle of course, there was the "it's gone backwards since Civ II" people as well, but anyhow, I digress. It was always a minority, though an over represented one here for obvious reasons. The repetitiveness of the community, of any community really, is startling.

This reminds me of Saturday Night Live casts. The current cast is never as good as the former cast, until new cast members come in and suddenly the previously "current" iteration is considered iconic.

It happens with literally anything that changes with time. People don't like change. A lot of players judge it as
 
Beyond the Sword was a buggy mess that required community patches to be made playable. Was great once the unofficial patches became official though, too bad that it was well over a year after the release.

I was equating game concepts and depth, not bugs. Bugs get fixed, even if eventually. Faulty game concepts, tard AI and lack of depth do not get fixed.

Civ 5 introduced a number of concepts that the AI could not play or simplified something through the removal of depth. Okay so Civ 6 returned some of the depth but is hurt massively by the completely inept AI. Not only has the Civ 6 AI inherited the tardness of the Civ 5 AI, but it's even worse as it doesn't even know how to use the new concepts properly.

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A lot of people keep saying over and over, "Civ 6 has potential". Sure it does have potential. But then Civ 5 and Civ BE had potential too, and look how they ended up! So my faith in Civ 6 being expanded fully to its full potential is lacking.
 
I was equating game concepts and depth, not bugs. Bugs get fixed, even if eventually. Faulty game concepts, tard AI and lack of depth do not get fixed.

Civ 5 introduced a number of concepts that the AI could not play or simplified something through the removal of depth. Okay so Civ 6 returned some of the depth but is hurt massively by the completely inept AI. Not only has the Civ 6 AI inherited the tardness of the Civ 5 AI, but it's even worse as it doesn't even know how to use the new concepts properly.

EDIT:
A lot of people keep saying over and over, "Civ 6 has potential". Sure it does have potential. But then Civ 5 and Civ BE had potential too, and look how they ended up! So my faith in Civ 6 being expanded fully to its full potential is lacking.

Civ IV, even in the state it ended up as, is riddled with poor game design and weak systems. It's a good game, it's arguably one of the best strategy games ever made, but it wasn't without it's problems. Warlords was one of the most underwhelming expansion packs seen in the series, while Beyond the Sword added so many counter productive systems that the AI couldn't handle properly that it rendered it near braindead without mods. Corporations in particular were guilty of that. You can talk about bugs and inept AI, but this was the hallmark of Civ IV, don't let the nostalgia goggles hide that.

Doesn't work.

Civ5 is still a crap game. :lol:

Tell that to the wider gaming community, which these days hails Civ V as the best entry in the series.
 
don't let the nostalgia goggles hide that.

I don't. I played Civ4 BtS right up to Civ6 release. And just before Civ6 release I played a few games of Civ5 BNW so that I could see if Civ6 is going to be a step up or not. Yes it's a step up design wise, but the AI is a major step downwards. And like you say, Firaxis has a tradition of not fixing the AI, so I do not anticipate it to improve in Civ6 over time. I've played 165 hours of Civ6 (over 3/4s at the top 3 levels) so have a very good idea of how bad the AI is in the game.
 
And this is where peoples' opinions differ. You consider Civilisation 4 a deeper and more mechanically-satisfying game? Or words to that effect.

Broken AI is a (set of) bug(s). You can't criticise the AI for not working properly (unless you're arguing the state of the AI in Civ 6 is as-designed, which I doubt), but handwave people pointing out the issues with the last expansion for Civ 4 (i.e. it's most-complete state).
 
interesting results. it appears that people who play civ5, stick to it. civ6 attracts those that like civ games before V. fascinating.

A lot of people keep saying over and over, "Civ 6 has potential".
Mo03 has potential, new MoO has potential, Spore has potential, civ:be has potential, civ4:col has potential. even At the Gates has potential :eek:

unless you're arguing the state of the AI in Civ 6 is as-designed
civ6's AI is working as designed. Firaxis had ample time to test the AI.
 
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