Do you ever hold your tongue on facts to avoid arguments?

[Gori the Grey]

Well, I was going to tell you what I thought about this thread topic . . .

 

[Esperr]

Just had a guy try to tell me we won Vietnam until we cut funding.

must...hold...toungue

 

[Farm Boy]

Just blame Nixon for doing it. Or for Watergate distracting him enough to not send back the B52s when the truce was broken like he had promised he would in such an event.

Would that have been amusing?

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I'm going to hold my tongue around my mother more when I want to criticize American policy, because it usually just ends in her telling me partially seriously to leave the country.

 

[CavLancer]

I don't see how the situation is that much different if we had won it. Lets see, China would still be raising its ugly head in the region. Likely China would not have attacked Vietnam in the 70s if there was a contingent of US troops on the border. Doubt the nine dash line would include Vietnamese waters with USN coming and going. Vietnam could have been drilling for oil, but no. Of course with us it was just the south after the French lost the north, yes? Some deal with communist countries no doubt. So US troops would still be in the south, but China could more easily have its way with the north. The US would not have to negotiate for the return of Da Nang base rights, but we'll get those I'm sure. Vietnam needs defending from China again. So either way... What a waste that war was. Sad...

 

[tetley]

Sometimes the facts are just too complicated, or the person is clearly entrenched in their view, or the person is irrelevant and it doesn't really matter to me what they believe. Say for example my mechanic is misogynist. I'm not a woman, and my car is not a woman, so who cares. Are my facts going to fix my fuel pump?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Just blame Nixon for doing it. Or for Watergate distracting him enough to not send back the B52s when the truce was broken like he had promised he would in such an event.
Would that have been amusing?

I blame Obama.
Funding cut caused a crisis in public perception, at that time the US had left such a huge largess of Equipment that the Vietnamese couldnt even make use of all of it, including huge numbers of tanks and aircraft left behind when the US pulled out.
Not that the Vietnamese could have afforded to maintain this warmachine even if they had the trained personal, not for long anyways.

 

[aelf]

I just avoid getting into such situations as much as possible (not feasible when I see it on screen in the forum). Because if it gets to the point where someone gets huffy defending something factually wrong, then it would be difficult not to show that person the error of his/her ways.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Dear civver,

Going into this thread I was going to answer with "yes, I actually hold back quite a lot", but reading your opening post really made my blood boil

I don't even think you'd be a Dick Cheney for pulling out those credit card statements. You should look up the term "gaslighting", don't ever let it come that far

Though to be honest in my relationships and my current relationship I can't even remember a single case where I held back on correcting someone on a crucial fact that was wrong, nor will I ever do that. If I corrected my girlfriend she'll usually accept it or just lookt it up, because you know, information is readily available. I personally can't even imagine someone not willing to do that, it would drive me insane.

That was the last time you guys had significant money? That's what it is, trust me. Likely she got with her friends and one of them has a shiny new blah and all 'the girls' fawned over it and now she wants one. If you go into debt and get her one, next time she's out with 'the girls' you'll be facing the same **** but this time you'll be in debt.

Don't mean to be critical, not at all, just life, get used to it. But I tell you this: Men and women are d i f f e r e n t. If what I described is the case, and it often is, then if you are the breadwinner the real message here is that you aren't making enough bread. Edit: But trust me, in fact, t h a t is not the problem.

I'll catch crap from the ladies on the forum for this civvver. I'd have done better holding my tongue, but I'm not really good at that anyway. My point is this, you owe me a beer if we ever meet. You owe me a beer!

My friend, I think you made a grave error. You have been wronged. It appears all your previous relationships have been with magpies. These are a species of bird known (falsely) for liking shiny things. In this thread however we are talking about human females. Know the difference!

Sometimes the facts are just too complicated, or the person is clearly entrenched in their view, or the person is irrelevant and it doesn't really matter to me what they believe. Say for example my mechanic is misogynist. I'm not a woman, and my car is not a woman, so who cares. Are my facts going to fix my fuel pump?

What if he's a racist? Is it okay if you're white? What if he's a Klan member and tells you all blacks should be hanged? Still okay? I think you're kind of arbitrarily drawing a line here. If someone's being openly misogynistic around me I'll call them out. If someone tells a racist joke, I'll call them out, too.

Spoiler :

Unless it's a funny one, of course

 

[Esperr]

What if he's a racist? Is it okay if you're white? What if he's a Klan member and tells you all blacks should be hanged? Still okay? I think you're kind of arbitrarily drawing a line here. If someone's being openly misogynistic around me I'll call them out. If someone tells a racist joke, I'll call them out, too.

Spoiler :

Unless it's a funny one, of course

These are definitely the ones I avoid. A klan member or somebody who is openly racist where I live in 2016 isnt worth the time to try and argue with about there beliefs. Im also lazy and dont care enough to, but mostly the first one. This actually razes an interesting point. In one of the areas I used to work in, the culture was very much the "old south". We had a lot of white people who assumed that all other white people were secretly racist as well, but we all just mutually agreed to keep it secret because it wasn't PC or whatever. I would get a lot of clients who would make these racist comments when we were in the room alone together and I would normally just ignore it and move the conversation along.

 

[Hygro]

Never let a good story derail the truth.

 

[Agent327]

Do you ever hold your tongue on facts to avoid arguments?

Regularly. I don't like arguments, and if opinions get very opinionated, I will even leave. The difference between being right and showing other people wrong can be quite aggravating, and I dislike aggravation.

 

[dusters]

No. If I am asked directly and not in a rhetoric manner and the askee is a person I care about, I say everything that is relevant.

 

[Lexicus]

Depends on the social context. I try to keep it real but not always.

 

[Commodore]

To add on to what I said earlier in the thread: A lot of the time I also just can't be bothered to educate someone. I don't get paid to educate people so if they want to walk around blissfully ignorant about certain matters, I'll let them continue on being blissfully ignorant. The fact that we live in an age where just about everyone has internet access and search engines that could answer just about any question they could think of asking has only reinforced this attitude in me. Now, my response to anyone who disagrees with something I know to be factually true is "fine, Google it if you don't believe me" and then I move on to another topic of conversation.

 

[BvBPL]

I’ve been known to hold my tongue on facts as a means to escalate an argument.

But as to the question at hand, if we’re playing “Never Have I Ever” then I would be drinking.

 

[warpus]

Sure, but when I am hanging out with my parents and other family elders and they start saying BS I call them out on it.

As a result I will be probably spending far less time with them, I am sick of their nonsense. I also don't find discussing things over and over and over any fun.. things that we as a society have sorted out already and put to bed.

"Want to visit your aunt and hang out with us and stuff?
"And have another 5 hour long conversation about Muslim lesbians? Forget it"

They'll either learn to not talk "politics" around me or they will see less of me. I'm not going to stop calling them out on their bigoted ideas, they're close family, and I can't just stay quiet. What am I going to do, sit there quietly and/or agree with them? No way, bring it on, if you want to talk politics, let's talk politics. I would be doing this family a disservice if I didn't say anything.

At least my parents have sort of figured out that bringing up "politics" with me around is not a good idea. So there's less and less of that. Which is good. And everybody involved here (parents, uncle, aunt, etc.) aren't going to disown me or anything like that, we all get along. Hateful things are never said our disagreements, we never go there. We disagree, we talk about it, then we go to sleep. No fighting allowed. We do all love each other too much for that.

This also never happens over dinner. Well, sometimes, but it doesn't ruin christmas dinner or whatever. I would never do that. When my dad says stupid things during big family dinners (that we want to remember for reasons other than muslim lesbians) I just try to change the subject. But I will speak up if we are just sitting there, doing shots of vodka, discussing stuff.

In the same vein I am far more diplomatic with this sort of thing in professional settings. You gotta be. It's also wise to pick your battles when it comes to friends, but if a friend of mine is good enough to be called a friend, I will be honest with this person. It's the least they deserve.

So it totally depends on the situation, but having said all I have said I differentiate between "arguments" and "disagreements". Me and my family never argue. We disagree and we spell out our points, and sometimes it might get heated, but it never gets nasty. So I think if you are able to voice your point of view without things getting nasty, and if you know the people well enough, go for it. Even if it ends up in a big discussion about muslim lesbians.

 

[emzie]

I was with inlaws over thanksgiving who I actually like and get along with just fine, but they can be stubborn as all get out at times. My wife also is one who hates when I present facts and call her wrong about things, or google things on my phone to show her, like actual factual things. Like as an example, one time we were discussing grandparents and I mentioned how my grandma left us a decent chunk of money when she died and she said wow where did that money go? And I reminded her our honeymoon was at a very expensive place and we spent the majority on that. She goes no, no way it was not that much. That stuff just drives me crazy when she completely misremembers facts, it makes me want to pull our credit card statements and show her, but of course if I do that I'm the jerk for having to always be right.

Another example, we live in Michigan and were talking about the election around election time and I said there's no way trump will win Michigan, Michigan hasn't voted for a republican since the first bush. And she said that's not true, the second bush won Michigan at least one of his runs. And I said uh no he didn't. And she said yes I distinctly remember cus I was in college at the time, like somehow that bolsters her case? I don't really know what her point was with that, but again I have to whip out my phone and she gets all mad at me for pointing out her mistake and acting like a jerk and showing her up. Facts be damned I guess.

So, back to thanksgiving, we were discussing how an aunt who is a bank teller was getting laid off and unemployment came up and I said well unemployment for her probably isn't that bad, cus what do bank tellers make? Maybe $15 an hour? More? Cus unemployment in Michigan maxes at $362 a week which is the equivalent of $9 an hour for 40 hours. I knew offhand it didn't take much to max it either cus I remembered my wife was laid off from teaching one summer and got the max and she had an annual salary in the 30s. So my thinking was she would probably make more than half her salary while not working and looking for another job, which isn't that bad if you can afford it. For someone like me to be on unemployment would be catastrophic cus it wouldn't come near replacing my income, which is sort of the point, you want people to actively be looking for work.

However when I mentioned this my inlaws who are small business owners said no it's a percentage of what you make. And I said yes but it caps really low and is easy to reach the cap. And then insisted no there is no cap and they knew cus they often have to pay the benefit when they lay people off.

Of course it was at that time my wife gave me the look like you had better drop this argument, saying well they run a business so they know better than you. Despite the fact they were blatantly wrong and a 2 second google search could prove that.

So my question is, in a situation like that would you insist on showing them the facts and risk angering people or would you just drop it cus who really cares? I mean it doesn't personally affect me, but on the other hand why would someone be mad at facts? There's literally no interpretation there. Really they would be mad that they were wrong and I pointed it out, which is understandable. However if someone did that to me I would go oh wow I was totally wrong, thanks for pointing that out. I don't get why others are so emotional about being wrong about stuff that is quite literally black and white. However I hold my tongue all the time in conversations with my wife just cus I don't want to anger her lol.

Do you do the same?

What's more important, that you prove your wife wrong and make her feel stupid or just ignore that she made a mistake?

 

[CavLancer]

Wait, warpus, what's this about Muslim lesbians?

 

[whyidie]

For people I otherwise like and respect if they are repeat offenders I usually try to stay in my own orbit, but that doesn't always work as I'll usually get sucked in.

I'll usually try soft hints. Leading questions. Give them something to be right about. Like in your vacation conversation I might say something like :

"I'll be damned, its odd cause we financed the car and we didn't make any other large purchases that year. Where did we stay ?"
They answer.
"Oh right the $$$$ Hotel! We were only there for a day or two right ?"
They correct me, it was 7 days.
"Right that was a long stay, did we fly business class ? "
Of course we did you poor memoried sod.
"You're right! Maybe it does add up I guess"

If that doesn't do it I'll usually let it go if I respect the person as its clear there are other factors at play. If its just the two of us though, I'm not letting it drop.

1:1 situations the worst I'll do is backdoor it or engineer a soft landing.

Take your unemployment insurance example.

No cap.
"No kidding ? "
Yeah. Here are some tangentially unrelated anecdotes.
"Thats bizarre. So if millionaire CEO gets canned our taxes pay 85% of her salary ?"
Thats the law.
"Yowzers. Can you imagine. So when Ford canned their CEO the state was paying him millions ? How much you think he made ? "
Millions!
"We should look that up....10 million! He made 10million. So we were paying the weekly equivalent of 8.5 million a year!"
Well he probably didn't file for unemployment.
"Hmph. Huh, I don't know you really think we'd pay a person millions in unemployment ?"

At this point I've shown I'm willing to stoop to fact checking with the salary. I've been agreeable. I feel as if I've given them a lot of opportunities to back away from the non-facts. The choice is theirs on how the rest of the conversation goes.

Your dinner table discussion would drive me nuts. Especially the comment about "they run their own business they would know". That would grind my gears.