GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

[AlanH]

Welcome back, Alweth. Now we just need some reassurance that MacBaldrick has survived his weekend of running and drinking and we'll be back to full strength.

The roster:

AlanH
Smackster
Karasu (playing)
MacBaldrick (on deck)
Alweth

Please let us know if you think you'll need to switch or skip.

BTW. In case you haven't seen my post in the shared SG23 thread, I've enjoyed this so much that I've signed up for SG24, and I'm hoping we can get a quorum together for another Civ3 team. There are still places free, and it starts on the 9th. Karasu is tentatively on board as well, so give some thought.

 

[smackster]

Reputation

I loaded up 350AD to see how our reputation looked and then trashed it to see the effect.

I'm not 100% sure what our reputation was at this point but I believe that may have been close to perfect, we had autorazed one city which I know effects attitude.

Now I looked at Egypt to see how much I could get Theology for (they had an exclusive):

625 Gold or
139 Gold and 27 GPT (=679 gold)

The interesting thing is that 139 gold is the minimum lump sum, if we offer 138 Gold and 1000GPT they wont take it, but offer 139 Gold and suddenly its possible to do the GPT deal. I don't know why the minimum, I know that I've recently got a tech for simply GPT, and no cash, so I wonder if one of the above can affect that a little, the only thing I did not do in that other game was autoraze any cities.

or for Chivalry (we had one turn left to research it)

110 Gold or
1 Gold and 6 GPT (=121 gold), and actually can get this for 7GPT.

I now declare peace with Rome, and that trashes our alliance with Otto, who we are now at war with (no warning).

I go back to Egypt and this is what I can get Theology for:

625 Gold
But not for any GPT, or luxuries.

Chivalry for:

110 Gold or
59 Gold and 27 GPT (=599 gold), so GPT is at a crazy price now

Now I try ROP rape, alliance breaking multiple times but not against Egypt, it has no more effect same price, so "per turn" reputation is either good or bad.

Then I break a deal with Egypt and they now keep the price the same but will not accept GPT or resources at any price. So there is such thing as "per turn" reputation against each individual Civ and "per turn" reputation against other Civs.

Now I tested ROP, I could always get a ROP from Egypt regardless of my repuration to them or others for free, but once I broke a ROP it would cost me 550 Gold to get one with Egypt. Once I broke ROP you can't get another with the same Civ.


Conclusion

Absolute gold price for tech is not affected by reputation (it is by attitude).
When a per turn deal or alliance is broken to another Civ then the GPT price for a tech goes up exponentially (to the point where you think you can't use GPT).
When a per turn deal or alliance is broken with the Civ in question then GPT does not seem possible anymore (maybe its too high for my test)
ROP price is not affected by "per turn" reputation.
ROP rape for another civ adds a large premium for ROP with an individual Civ (remember that the size of your land adds to the price of ROP so it may be free if you land is big enough even after trashing the ROP).
You can only ROP rape any one civ once.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by smackster
Conclusion

Absolute gold price for tech is not affected by reputation (it is by attitude).
When a per turn deal or alliance is broken to another Civ then the GPT price for a tech goes up exponentially (to the point where you think you can't use GPT).
When a per turn deal or alliance is broken with the Civ in question then GPT does not seem possible anymore (maybe its too high for my test)
ROP price is not affected by "per turn" reputation.
ROP rape for another civ adds a large premium for ROP with an individual Civ (remember that the size of your land adds to the price of ROP so it may be free if you land is big enough even after trashing the ROP).
You can only ROP rape any one civ once.

I believe our Reputation is shared by all civs, whereas attitude is a per-civ parameter. So it sounds like ROP rape is having an effect on some aspect of attitude rather than rep, since its effect depends on who you do it to.

There's an article by Zwingli here that, if I had any energy left tonight I'd read and it *might* explain these results ... or not!

 

[smackster]

Originally posted by AlanH

I believe our Reputation is shared by all civs, whereas attitude is a per-civ parameter. So it sounds like ROP rape is having an effect on some aspect of attitude rather than rep, since its effect depends on who you do it to.

There's an article by Zwingli here that, if I had any energy left tonight I'd read and it *might* explain these results ... or not!

I've read that before and I did the see the attitude effect here, but it only has a little effect on the total Gold required, and in the Chivalry case only 10Gold. But I think I proved that reputation is not shared equally between all civs. If I trash my rep with civ X then GPT trades with them are impossible, but civ Y will still give me a GPT trade albeit at inflated prices.

Here are the reputation levels

When dealing with a specific civ

1) "per turn" reputation with other civ = good/bad
2) "per turn" reputation with this civ = good/bad
3) ROP reputation with other civ = good/bad
4) ROP reputation with this civ = good/bad

*note if you break ROP you break "per turn"

That is it, your level with each civ is defined above

 

[Karasu]

I'm back.
Got to play terribly late last night, as I needed to write a complaint letter to Alitalia...
so I only played half my turns. The last five are up for sale now...

Turnlog

Pre-turn
Everything looks fine.
Change production to Cataphracts wherever possible.

Press Enter.


IT - Alliance with Spain against France expires. We don't extend it.
Alliances with Carthage expire. She doesn't want to extend them. Well, this basicly settles who we are going to attack next...

Besides, Egypt is still paying us some gpt deals, which won't hurt to keep alive for a while more.

A Persian archer outside Susa kills an Elite Cataphract. Not a good start...
Our worker close to Punjab irritates Gandhi. I promise the worker will leave (Cataphracts will come to replace him )

Forgot to do anything with Madinah. We now have a Cathedral there (see what happens to play late at night?).


Turn 1 - 450 AD
Most of our cities have built something and are continuing with Cataphract.
Pisae (now renamed Livorno) and Viroconium are building a Temple.

MM'ed Madinah to speed up growth, aiming to achieving those 30 spt.
France already has Invention. I switch off research: we will be able to get it by trade or extortion before 13 turns.

Declare war to Carthage. Alliances have become very difficult to sign now...

Hurried Spearman in Aydin

Susa conquered with no losses. Temple
Tyre is conquered with no losses. Temple
The stupid Archer is killed. Promotion to Elite.
The Persians must have a settler wandering somewhere

Captured Leptis Magna with no losses. Temple
Captured Theveste. One lost.

Pikemen from Jeddah and Najran are moving towards the new border with Carthage.


IT - Carthaginian Persian Mercenary kills one Cataphract in Leptis Magna


Turn 2 - 460 AD
Rome: Marketplace. Cataphract
Aydin: Spearman. Temple
Byzantium: Temple. Settler
Muscat: Spearman. Temple

By the looks, Indian troops are marching towards France through former Persian lands: I give Gandhi a RoP to help him fight more effectively. When we have enough troops...

Apparently, we have at least one option open for a RoP rape. I would try to sign more with France and Egypt


Turn 3 - 470 AD
Attack on Utica. Two lost, will have to wait next turn.
Hippo conquered. No losses.

Hurried Temple in Theveste
Hurried Temple in Aden
Hurried Cataphract in Snagha
Hurried Pike in Fustat


IT - Two attacks on Leptis Magna kill two defenders.


Turn 4 - 480 AD
Theveste: Temple - Cataphract
Abydos culture-flips to us!

Alanah founded. Temple

Hurried Temple in Antium and Ravenna


IT - India and France sign a peace treaty


Turn 5 - 490 AD
Antium: Temple - Spearman (city not connected yet)

There is a superHoplite in Utica who redlined three Cataphracts in a row...

Hurried Temple in Leptis Magna
Hurried Aqueduct in Akaba
Hurried Pikeman in Sogut

Ok. Enough for me tonight.



Conclusions

I have been sending troups towards India (Muscat and Persepolis IIRC) in preparation for the attack, and towards Carthage (Basra and Najran).

Reading your discussions, I came to love the idea of a TRIPLE RoP-rape, on India, France and Egypt. We need to amass a good number of troups for that.

We already have a RoP with India, and I think we can succeed in signing one with France and Egypt.
On second though, Egypt may be left out of the deal if we can't manage enough cataphracts (besides, if we have a RoP in place with them, we can always abuse it later on... )

So, we can concentrate our present effort in finishing the carthagians, and prepare for the 'final attack'.

I think we can afford a little wait here, waiting (as Alan said) for Egypt to settle the lands to our south and India to settle the desert between us.

Spain is almost gone, and I think we can leave the westernmost parts of the Zulu territory last, to acquire only if we really need more tiles to reach the domination limit.

I also suggest to rush a Temple between Cataphracts in the Roman cities that still miss it, and to rush a Settler from time to time in the small, useless cities we have scattered around. We will need them to recover some auto-razed cities and to fill some gaps.


Carthago Delenda Est

Oh, and please, put to the sword all male citizens of Utica, won't you?


P.S.: Just to strenghten somewhat Alan's 'gentle persuasion', I would like to point out that a most interesting variant of GOTM24 is about to begin... We don't want to miss this marvelous chance, do we?

 

[AlanH]

If I read Karasu's post correctly we are now at end of his turn 5, next turn is 500 AD, and he is handing over. MacBaldrick, you're next up, so assuming you're still in one piece, here's the current schedule:

AlanH
Smackster
Karasu
MacBaldrick (24 hours to get it)
Alweth (on deck)

Thanks for the entertaining log, Karasu. I usually love all things Italian, so I'm sorry to hear Alitalia are giving you grief. What's the world coming to?

I'm at work now, with a PeeCee in front of me and no Civ3, so I'll have a look at the state of our proud empire when I get home and offer some badly thought-out pearls of wisdom, as is customary on these occasions.

I assume you've all noticed that the PTW team have finished. It'll be very interesting to compare results.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Hi all,

I'll take things forward another 10 turns later tonight (when I get home).

The idea of the GOTM24 sounds great - count me in - I have yet to look at it or download the upgrades - that can follow this turn.

 

[AlanH]

Roster update:

AlanH
Smackster
Karasu
MacBaldrick (playing)
Alweth (on deck)

 

[smackster]

MacBaldrick,

You need to post in the GOTM24 SG thread to get signed up for that.

 

[AlanH]

Well, I've poked around a bit, and here are some thoughts (hopefully they're too late to mess up MacBaldrick's thinking):

Production
Our cities are churning out the Cataphracts well, we have 46 now, but we have only a few more turns left of our golden age. I think it ends half way through MacBaldrick's set, at which point our productivity will take a dive.

Catapracts cost 60 shields each, so the magic spt numbers in each city are 15, 20 and 30 - 4, 3 and 2 turns per Cataphract. I've sorted F1 by shield productionm and I can't see anywhere that will produce 30 spt now, and there's no chance of it after our GA ends, so we should be mm'ing shared tiles for 20 spt in as many cities as possible with the aim of building enough Cataphracts to last us most of the rest of the game, upgrading them to Cavalry if we haven't finished before then.

I'm wondering if we should get a few courthouses built in the semi-corrupt cities.

Victory
According to JMapstat we currently need 847 more tiles, with 792 unclaimed tiles out there somewhere. So a couple more mergers plus some fast expansion may be all we need. Settlers are cheap now, and could be built fast in cities that currently struggle to deliver timely Cataphracts, and there's lots of land we could fill by building cities. We don't care what they achieve, just that they occupy space in no man's land.

JMapstat says Persia owns a city somewhere. That being so we could wipe the rest of the civs out without risking a conquest victory. Alternatively we could find out where they live, delete them and see if there's more territory available there.

[Edit] We can find out where Xerxes lives by selling a peace treaty for their world map and cash

We are only at 3000 culture points right now, so there should be no danger of a 100K victory sneaking up on us.

 

[AlanH]

I've just spotted Xerxes new home. He's set up a small bazaar on the eastern tip of the continent, next to India and a barb encampment

 

[smackster]

I had a look at the map, and with a quick count I can see at least 200 squares we'll get when our culture expands for each new city. Obviously we have to build temples, but I suggest we systematically start building, and rushing temples once the GA has finished. I think it is 116 Gold to rush a temple on the second turn.

 

[MacBaldrick]

At last I've finished it ~ 1.30 am. Trust it was worth waiting for.

The Conquest Continued.

War Situation : Good progress on erasing the Carthaginians. Massing troops to attack India. Option of marching troops into France or Egypt prior to ROP rape.

Use workers to build roads towards borders.

General Situation : plenty of spaces in our empire need filling to assist towards domination goal, particularly in South & around Rome. Use Temples to push out boundaries of newly conquered cities then focus on pop growth to build (some rushing?) settlers to fill in any spaces (we need all the territory we can get).

Diplomatic Situation : At war with Zulu, Carthage, France & Persia (did they ship out ?). ROP with India. Spain will offer free ROP.

AD 490

Make peace with Persians for Territory map (we locate them on the tip of Indian peninsular – they will go when we clear out the Indians).

Review MM of all cities for growth (temples) or settlers / workers (convert pop in more land occupied) where suitable. Note Veil could make 2nd settler farm. Rush temple in Bukhara (40g).

EOT

Sogut: pikeman – cataphract, Rome: Cataphract – settler, Veil: cataphract – settler,
Izmit: settler – worker, Lemptis Magna: Temple – cataphract,
Neopolis: Temple – galley (Lets look for some islands for easy extra land include coast tiles as there is some interesting marks from (hidden) sea tiles north of this city).
Bagdad: settler – worker (further growth will create disorder), Riyadh: cataphract – cataphract, Alawetha; pikeman – cataphract, Akaba: pikeman – cataphract,
Bukhara: temple – worker,

Turn 1 - AD500

Utica captured at cost of 2 Cataphract + 3 redlined ! Build worker (slaves) to drive down the pop + starvation regime J.
Move up towards Carthage but wait for healed Cataphracts to return.
Move up to mountains above Chartres / Madrid leaving options open (spot French knight which spells trouble). Generally move cataphracts to borders and move/employ workers to extend roads.

EOT

Spain request renewal of peace treaty – accept, we can always break it.
Makah: settler – settler. Bagdad: worker - cataphract
Utica; worker – worker (make ‘em slaves), Pompei: worker – temple,
Dharahn; cataphract – cataphract, Basra: pike – cataphract,
Aximanistan; cataphract – cataphract, Samarra: pike – settler,

Turn 2 – AD 510

Found Merw west of Iznit (infill).

Kill French horseman nr & spear in Chartres. Move 3 x cataphract S via Madrid.
Capture Rusicada at no loss. Move more cataphracts up against Carthage.
Generally move troops west from Roman lands and re-arrange spear protection in cities.
Road to connect with Egypt.

EOT

French horse dies nr Chartes. archer dies S of Carthage, Indian continue to move west !
ROP with Spain (nothing to lose & can use to get at France / Carthage / Zulu)

Rome: settler – cataphract, Madinah: cataphract – cataphract,
Utica: worker – cataphract (has been starved into submission),
Cumae: temple – cataphract, Iznit: worker – cataphract, Anjar: pike – cataphract,
Livorno; temple – galley (use to move slow troops around S coast when attacking Egypt)

Did I mention attacking Egypt J, India should be easy once they sort out France (we should trail after then and try to grab cities) and I like Egypt next as it has lots of soft (i.e. small) cities and only sporadic mountains and should give max territory for the effort – please discuss as such a move with be beyond this turn.

Najran: cataphract – cataphract, Sirplebidah: cataphract – cataphract,

Turn 3 – AD 520

Carthage falls at cost of 1 cataphract, + nearby archer dies.
Lose cataphract attacking Sabratha (regroup)
General troop & worker redeployments to push south and link captured Carthage lands.

EOT

Merc kills French horse nr Chartres
Veil: settler – temple, Diryhah: cataphract – cataphract, Kufa: settler – cataphract

Turn 4 – AD 530

Merc kills carthage merc (>vet) & Cataphract kills archer nr Leptis Magna.
Sabratha captured with loss of cataphract - capture catapult. Usual starvation / worker policy.
Move worker to road towards Egypt.
Kill French straggler nr Valencia which is taken without loss.
Regroup/heal N cataphtacts in Susa.
Found Balkh nr Alanah – warrior.
Found Al Jawf in southern desert - warrior

EOT

French kill merc nr Chartres but 2nd merc repells knights.
Damascus: cataphract – cataphract, Bursa; pike – mercenary, Mansura: temple – cataphract

Turn 5 – AD 540

Kill archer n of Leptis Minor.
Move Caraphracts up to Leptis Minor
Continue roading & spear/merc movement west.

EOT

Merc dies before Leptis Minor.
French knights capture workers outside Susa (the trap will be sprung)
Rome: cataphract – cataphract, Makkah: cataphract – cataphract,
Madinah: cataphract – cataphract, Pompeii: temple – cataphract
Vericonium: temple – cataphract, Akaba: cataphract – cataphract
Mosul: pike – cataphract,

Turn 6 – AD 550

Kill knight outside Susa (loose vet cataphract). Kill spear escorting captured workers.
Capture Leptis Minor at no cost.
Capture Ocea at cost of 1 vet cataphract
Rush temple in Tarsus (76g)
Found Al Hufuf NE of Rome- temple (by wine)

EOT

Leptis Minor recaptured (careless – but it cost them a merc so it will not hold)
French knight dies nr Chartres.
Veil : temple – pike, Antium: Galley - mercenary, Neopolis: galley – cataphract
Dharhan: cataphract – cataphract, Najran: cataphract – cataphract,
Tarsus: temple – pike, Shiraz: cataphract – pike, Fez: pike – cataphract,

Turn 7 – AD 560

Leptis Major destroyed on recapture.
Rush settler in Uticca to replace.
French Axeman killled nr Seville.
Rush temples in Gordium, Susa & Muscat, switch Snaga & Makkah to settler.

EOT

France & Spain sign peace treaty.
Makkah: settler – pike, Snaga: settler – pike, Utica: settler - cataphract
Diriyiah: cataphract – cataphract, Susa: temple – pike, Aydin: warrior - spearman
Theveste / Riyadh / Bagdad / Jeddah / Basra / Aximanistan: cataphract – cataphract,
Gordium: temple – pike, Muscat: temple – pike,

Turn 8 – AD 570

Hardrumetum captured with loss on vet cataphract – temple.
Move Cataphracts towards Indian borders.
Lots of Indian troops are on-route to fight Zulu (if they ever get there) and will have to be mopped up quickly when we attack India – a job for Alweth

Attacking Chartres loses 2 cataphracts (tough nut)

EOT

Zulu & Egypt sign peace treaty ! Is this the time to Attack J
Rome / Madinah / Cumae / Sirpladibah: cataphract – cataphract,
Tarsus / Sardis: pike – pike,
Sabrath; worker – pike (forgot to turn of pop reduction)


Turn 9 – AD 580

Organise troops but no fighting. Continue roading & misc improvements.

Is Egypt massing for an attack? They will be very foolish to do so with chariots.

EOT

French kill Cataphract & capture worker near Susa but lose knight.

Carthage: worker – pike, Makkah / Veil: pike – cataphract,
Iznik: Cataphract – cataphract, Sammara: settler – settler, Bukhara: worker – worker,
Aleppo / Merw: temple – pike,

Turn 10 – AD 590

Make peace with Carthage for Invention. (their single city is insignificant and too hard to get at right now)
Found Adha – pike west of Carthage.
Found Al Qatif in southern Desert – pike
Use workers to grow various cities.
Spend gold freely to rush pikes & cataphracts in various cities.

Summary – Carthage is out of the game. We have major forces along India’s border and similar ly in the South / Central sectors facing Egypt. A small force holds France at bay but now would be the time to strike a peace deal before getting involved with new wars.

Could someone check how much our territory has grown as there has been regular expansions as smaller cities grow & we found new ones.

Your mission – should you accept it – is to conquer the known world.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Posted the game in upload 5 as
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23C_AD590-SAV.zip

No time for screen shots etc.

Time for bed - said Zebedee

 

[AlanH]

Roster update:

AlanH (on deck)
Smackster
Karasu
MacBaldrick
Alweth (next up - 24 hours to get it)

Good job MacBaldrick . You keep late hours as well!

I see our navy is making a courtesy call on Xerxes

648 tiles to go, so that's your 200 tiles in-fill almost exactly, Smackster. There's lots of space to fill in old Carthage. Egypt, India and France have over 200 each, the others have a little over 100 between them. To get our 2/3 we need to take out most of that, so where's the other 1/3?

[EDIT] I didn't realise Smackster took 5 turns to trigger the golden age, so it actually started in 400 AD. Our 20 turns are up. We'll be back to normal production next turn.

 

[Karasu]

Good progress!

I agree on making a peace deal with France. This should also include a RoP, even if it costs us something: they have two Irons and two Horses that would be good to disconnect upon starting a new war with them.

I would agree on attacking Egypt. It may be safer to make peace with Zulus prior to that: a front with India and one with Egypt may be enough...

And don't forget to RoP rape Gandhi! :devil2:
BTW, those 5 missing turns are still there to be picked...

 

[AlanH]

BTW, those 5 missing turns are still there to be picked...

Sorry, I'm a newbie to SG etiquette, and I just assumed we were now running 10 turns each from 500 AD. There's no magic about keeping to the ten turn timetable - we were already off it by one turn, anyway.

Here's my 2 cents:

I vote we continue at ten turns per session. If you want to play those five turns as an add-on to your next ten-turn session then I guess that's OK, as you have been short-changed, but I don't think we want extra five-turn sessions, as it will slow progress down just at a time when some of us are going to be looking for time to play the SG24 game.

Please feel free to shout me down ...

 

[Karasu]

No problems, really. I'm quite new too, and it was more a joke than anything else. I should have thrown some more smilies around...

Anything will work fine for me. If Alweth wants to play a bit longer, it's ok. Otherwise, let's keep the 10.


The end of the GA will hurt a bit. I still think we can win this game without Cavalry.
Muskets will most probably appear, so we will have to pay attention to who gets Gunpowder first and where the Saltpeter is.

 

[AlanH]

Sorry Karasu, I must have hada sense of humor break-down! I'll try not to take it all so seriously. It's just a game, damn it!

I was pondering again, so don't all laugh.

With gunpowder not far away we should, of course, go forth and pillage/deny access to saltpeter wherever it turns up. We need to stop enemies getting it either within their own territory or via trade with others.

If we fail at any stage and someone succeeds in building muskets, we can reduce the attrition rate on our Cataphracts if we build a bunch of catapaults now ready for upgrade to cannons, using our considerable wealth. If we can knock a musketman or musketeer down to 1 hp before attacking with a Cataphract and it will dramatically reduce our casualties and let us move forward faster with less healing required.

 

[Alweth]

Okay. I got it. I'll probably play 10 turns this evening, since 15 would take me too long, I think.