Monstrous Creatures

WarKirby · Apr 25, 2009

Monstrous Creatures v1.0 is here!
Download:http://www.magotek-industries.com/files/Monstrous Creatures.zip

It will break save games

Being a module, this will work with almost any other FF modmods. FF Plus, Fall Flat, etc. Anything that's based on FF should be compatible, though if any of the units listed here are changed in those, there may be some conflicts.

Changelog v1.0

Spoiler :

This module is an overhaul of large creatures in Erebus. I've reviewed their base strengths, as well as adding other bonuses here and there, some have gained new spells or abilities, and two have been visually scaled up. Making them bigger, faster, stronger, and more un-killable. With one possible exception (the tar demon, which now has no defensive bonuses) all of the affected creatures are at least slightly stronger, sometimes much more so.

The creatures I currently consider monstrous:

Drifa the White Dragon
Acheron the Red Dragon
Abashi the Black Dragon
Eurabatres the Gold Dragon
Auric Ascended
The War Machine
Mother
Gurid
Margalard
Leviathan
The Avatar of Wrath
Tar Demon
Meshabber of Dis
Coatlann the Wyvern
Mythril Golem

Most importantly, I've created a new promotion which is applied to all of these. aptly named Monstrous Creature

It's effects are:

Flat terrain movement cost (can't use roads, but isn't slowed by forests/hills either)
Ignores terrain defence on attack
Doesn't recieve defensive bonuses
Causes Collateral Damage. Up to 6 targets, with no damage limit. Can kill!
+25% vs Melee
-25% vs Archery units
-50% vs Siege Weapons
+25% City defence
Immune to collateral damage
+1 visibility range
50% poison resistance

This is not set in stone, and open to discussion. I will explain the logic behind each, though.

Spoiler :

-----------------------------------
Firstly, flat movement cost. This is a double edged sword. Essentially, one move, is one move. Regardless of what you move over. This means that the unit isn't slowed by forests and hills, but they're also not speeded up by roads.

I find this apt, because I feel a 50 foot golem would just trample trees underfoot as it goes. Cross a river in a single stride. Move across hills like mere speedbumps. It therefore also doesn't make sense that a line of paving stones along the ground, would make such a thing move faster. most big things would break the road if they tried to walk on it, and they can make their own roads across the countryside as they go.

There Is an XML tag to ignore only negative movement modifiers, so that a unit can still use roads, but isn't slowed by hills and such. the Jotnar use this. For now, I feel that flat movement cost is most apt, but it's changeable
------------------------------------
No defensive bonuses. Again, a logical choice. when you're 50 feet tall, it's hard to hide behind things. you can't just duck behind a tree to avoid incoming fire. This is one of the downsides of being big. For the most part though, the massive base strength of mega units helps to negate any need for defensive bonuses.
-------------------------------
immune to collateral damage. Generally, for things like catapults, I envision collateral damage as the rocks hitting people nearby, breaking apart, and you being hit by shrapnel from it. In general though, something massive is not something you damage while hitting something else. You focus your attention on it if you want to hurt it at all. Since massive things are usually going to be the stack defender due to their large strength, this won't come into effect too often.
----------------------------
Causes collateral damage.
Whether it's swinging your tree sized sword in a massive arc, or trampling fifty men underfoot without noticing, big things cause big damage. This will be reflected in a moderate amount of collateral damage done with each attack.

At the moment, I'm thinking hitting up to 4 extra people, for up to 80% damage. This is open to discussion and adjustment, of course.
-----------------------------
combat modifiers. Generally, you want to fight big things from afar. Running up to them with a sword isn't such a good idea, as you're generally just going to be stabbing fruitlessly at their shins.

With that in mind, big units will have a weakness to archers, due to being a big target. An even bigger weakness to siege weapons, which are generally the ideal weapon of choice. And a bonus against melee units, who they trample underfoot without even noticing.

Another thing to note, is the city attack bonus. This is primarily to not make it impossible to attack archers in a city. When in a city, archers get plenty of bonuses of their own, so this city attack bonus cancels out the penalty against archers. And also makes defending in a crowded city with units that attack with melee weapons, a really bad idea.
----------------------
no penalty attacking across rivers. Pretty simple one, not even a need for justification.
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+1 visibility. Because you can see better from high places. What I'd really like to do, is increase the height profile of the unit, so that it could see over hills and forests. This isn't possible at present, but xienwolf is working on it

Lastly, known issues.
1. Those who have been following this thread, may notice the omission of anything to do with war elephants. I've dropped War Elephants due to art problems. There were over 15 unique war elephant models, making a lot to change, and going beyond the scope of this module.

2. There is a graphical issue with the new promotions. In the little info box that appears when hovering over a unit, the promotion icons are pink boxes. but they're visible everywhere else. I'll fix this if possible, when I find out how.

This module is probably not finished. I have a few more things in mind, and a few more things will soon become more feasible thanks to xienwolf improving modular loading. yay.

Possible future plans:
1. Make dragons rideable
2. Weaken the Godslayer
3. Allow monstrous creatures to wade through water.

Image Credits:
Monstrous Creature Image: "To Chain The Beast" by Justin Gerard
Heart of Frost, Icy Breath, Molten Core, Acid Tongue, Spit Acid: All taken from Titan Quest

PPQ_Purple · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby said:
Do hyborem and/or basium seem big enough to fit?

Yes and no. They should get the -25% vs Archery units but that is it.
I imagine them being around 3-5 meters tall. Not quite what you clasify as monstrusly large.

WarKirby said:
Should big units be able to walk over mountains, too?

No, and not simply becouse of balance isues. Remeber Hanibal and his atack on rome? Yes, he did get elephants through the Alps but he lost most of them along the way. Any advantage a huge walking creature would get from it's long steps would do it no good in the narow pasages of a mountain range. It would be likely to meet it's doom by falling of a ledge, it's steps causing an avalanche, the ground breaking under his feet ect. The same thing is for dragons. They would have to fly as high as a modern airline to get over mountain peaks and that would prove problematic becouse such a huge creature would probably have troubles operating in the thin air present at that altitude.

WarKirby said:
Should they be able to walk in shallow water, essentially wading through it at waist height?

Not a bad idea. I propose allowing them to walk through shallow water but at half their regular movement speed. Even they would be affected by waves or ground features that lie on the bottom.

Vehem · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby said:
Should they be able to walk in shallow water, essentially wading through it at waist height?

PPQ_Purple said:
Not a bad idea. I propose allowing them to walk through shallow water but at half their regular movement speed. Even they would be affected by waves or ground features that lie on the bottom.

I think for the amount of effort required to implement it (AutoAcquires for half-speed etc) - the gameplay gain for this particular feature isn't really worth it. It's nice to be able to attack ships that come to the coast, but that's all it'd be good for.

I do like a lot of the rest though...

PPQ_Purple · Apr 25, 2009

Vehem said:
I think for the amount of effort required to implement it (AutoAcquires for half-speed etc) - the gameplay gain for this particular feature isn't really worth it. It's nice to be able to attack ships that come to the coast, but that's all it'd be good for.

I do like a lot of the rest though...

Why not just increase the movement costs for all water tiles by +1 and add a +1 movement to all sea units?

WarKirby · Apr 25, 2009

PPQ_Purple said:
Why not just increase the movement costs for all water tiles by +1 and add a +1 movement to all sea units?

It would have to be Double movement in water for sea units, not just +1

Also, "just".
This would require going through the unit list and changing every naval unit.

trireme
Galley
Carrack
Caravel
Queen of the Line
Frigate
Man o War
Sailor's Dirge
The Black Wind
Privateer
Pirate
Leviathan
Sea serpent
work boat
trade ship

And that's not saying anything about the balance issues it would cause with waterwalking units.

With the thought of wading through sea, I was just thinking to allow it at normal speed.

WarKirby · Apr 25, 2009

PPQ_Purple said:
The same thing is for dragons. They would have to fly as high as a modern airline to get over mountain peaks and that would prove problematic becouse such a huge creature would probably have troubles operating in the thin air present at that altitude.

Dragons can already cross mountains. I'm not changing that.
I'm also giving them the ability to cross oceans.

And also, magic
the answer to all questions of logic and realism

Seriously though, they're powerful godly creations. I wouldn't be surprised if eurabatres could fly into space.

ICanHasName? · Apr 25, 2009

I definatly want to see those stronger dragons and heroes.

Will the weakness vs siege units and archery apply to ranged attacks against them? With the drill line ranged attacks are basically going to become neccisary to take these things down, which will be a good thing.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby said:
Dragons can already cross mountains. I'm not changing that.
I'm also giving them the ability to cross oceans.

And also, magic
the answer to all questions of logic and realism

Seriously though, they're powerful godly creations. I wouldn't be surprised if eurabatres could fly into space.

Behind magic, there has to be a healthy dosage of logic. Lest we end up in a world that excedes the limit of belef. And than this forum will deteriorate into arguements like: "Why can't the the amurites cast a spell to shoot down the moon onto the enemy capital?! They come from the line of the greatest mage of all..."

deadliver · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby said:
Seriously though, they're powerful godly creations. I wouldn't be surprised if eurabatres could fly into space.

LOL! Great idea Warkirby. Can't remember his name, but is that Frost Giant hero still in the game?

WarKirby · Apr 25, 2009

Wilboman, and yes he is.

I'm not including him. Giants are covered by the Giantkin promotion. I'll add that to him, but he won't be getting Monstrous Creature

deadliver · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby said:
Wilboman, and yes he is.

I'm not including him. Giants are covered by the Giantkin promotion. I'll add that to him, but he won't be getting Monstrous Creature

I see. How about tar demons? They seem kinda big.

Sarisin · Apr 25, 2009

Some fun ideas, WK.

How about adding TumTum?

I would also suggest the Three Stooges (for comedic relief, perhaps), but with Jotnar they are not so monstrous anymore.

HadesScorn · Apr 25, 2009

WarKirby-

Fantastic idea, hope someone picks it up for main trunk as I hate installing these mini-mods. Seems balanced and reasonable.

Tarquelne · Apr 25, 2009

I like the abilities list, but I don't think War Elephants should be on the Monstrous Creatures list. They seem a very poor fit given your "single stride" description of how you envision the MC's operating. For some of the others MC doesn't fit how I've imagined them, but it's not a big shift.

Keyeth · Apr 25, 2009

Tarquelne said:
I like the abilities list, but I don't think War Elephants should be on the Monstrous Creatures list. They seem a very poor fit given your "single stride" description of how you envision the MC's operating. For some of the others MC doesn't fit how I've imagined them, but it's not a big shift.

What he said, they are not nearly so large as the other units, and definitely benefit from things like roads and would be slowed down by forests and hills, despite their size. They're probably smaller than giants, in fact.

WarKirby · Apr 26, 2009

About elephants.
I pondered this.

In erebus, I imagine the elephants to be much bigger than real world ones. As so much fantasy inspiration is taken from tolkien, why not take a little more?

I imagine erebus' elephants to be similar to the ones in Lord of the Rings.
http://membres.lycos.fr/frodon9/hpbimg/oliphant.jpg

FAR larger than normal ones.

WarKirby · Apr 26, 2009

HadesScorn said:
WarKirby-

Fantastic idea, hope someone picks it up for main trunk as I hate installing these mini-mods. Seems balanced and reasonable.

I share your feelings.

This is why I'm confining my work to modules. They don't break savegames, don't overwrite much. And for the most part, don't have to be maintained. Once I finish this, it could be used with every new version of FF, nd I'd only need to update it if any of the affected units are modified.

WarKirby · Apr 26, 2009

Sarisin said:
Some fun ideas, WK.

How about adding TumTum?

I would also suggest the Three Stooges (for comedic relief, perhaps), but with Jotnar they are not so monstrous anymore.

TumTum is an ogre on the back of a boar. As far as I'm aware, boards are a metre tall, at best. and smaller than horses in any case
I'd reckon anything small enough to ride one doesn't fit into this category.

The Three stooges are giants, and they have the giantkin promo now. So I'm not going to do anything to those. Giants in general, are the realm of the jotnar, and the giantkin promotion

deadliver said:
I see. How about tar demons? They seem kinda big.

This is an interesting question, are they?
Perhaps magister would know. I don't know enough about tar demons

Sarisin · Apr 26, 2009

WarKirby said:
TumTum is an ogre on the back of a boar. As far as I'm aware, boards are a metre tall, at best. and smaller than horses in any case
I'd reckon anything small enough to ride one doesn't fit into this category.

The Three stooges are giants, and they have the giantkin promo now. So I'm not going to do anything to those. Giants in general, are the realm of the jotnar, and the giantkin promotion

I get the impression that the boar and ogre are on the monstrous size rather than the size you mention. You can have small monkeys and spiders, too, you know.

I'm just going by the size of the TumTum model used in the game which is considerably larger than most units. I can't imagine a barb hero being only a few feet tall. The boar would have to be larger to carry an ogre, which are usually pretty big.

deadliver · Apr 26, 2009

Sarisin said:
I get the impression that the boar and ogre are on the monstrous size rather than the size you mention. You can have small monkeys and spiders, too, you know.

I'm just going by the size of the TumTum model used in the game which is considerably larger than most units. I can't imagine a barb hero being only a few feet tall. The boar would have to be larger to carry an ogre, which are usually pretty big.

Ogre.....3 meters
Riding Boar.....1.5 to 2 meters

These measurements assume the rider has most of his bulk and size above his hips.

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