New Beta Patch - 1/9

[Stalker0]

Standard America on Immortal Communitas_79. DV on Turn 365

Spoiler :

Starting to see a consistent pattern. I took out Ethiopia in the Medieval and vasseled him. Then Carthage got beat up very badly and asked to be my vassal.

With 2 vassals....DV is all but guaranteed. I had so many votes this game that I could have ignored both CS and embassies and still had a comfortable margin for victory. DV has become the easiest VC in the game at the moment, as 2 vassals is very easy to secure now. I am all for the voluntary vassals, but if we keep it, we are going to have to adjust vassal voting for DV (I'm still in favor of halving their votes for that purpose, or simply not allowing vassals to vote).

1) In general Freedom's tenents feel pretty good, but I do think at minimum we should swap Arsenal of Democracy and Draft Registration. AoD is not very strong, but at least at Tier 1 you have more time to let its influence bonus work, at Tier 2 the influence is way too low (its probably still weak at tier 1 but then at least it has a chance). Meanwhile Draft Registration is amazing, I would still consider it at Tier 2.

2) I like the voting trading I can do with my vassals but the deal values are too low. They are offer me vote trades at a mere 4 GPT....which at point in the game is basically free. I'm all about a discount, but that is too low.

3) DoFs are a lot more dynamic now. I have enemies giving me one, taking it away 30 turns later, and then later on they come back to the table. Its good to see that late game politics are more dynamic, as that more mirrors real life.

4) I believe the AI lost some bonuses recently and its showing. I have become a very comfortable immortal player, I may even go to Deity next game, whereas before I was a 50/50 immortal player at best.

 

[cpm4001]

Strange thing: I'm still seeing the same city-state issue reported above and apparently fixed with Hotfix #5. Started a bunch of games, only getting 2-3 CSes (checked the number via the 'Retire' screen). I reinstalled CPP (using the installer, and making sure I had the right settings - 43 civ DLL, no EUI - selected), reinstalled the appropriate hotfix, cleared cache, etc.; issue persists. Can file a formal bug report but I still have a bunch of other mods installed so not sure how useful that'll be.

Edit: should add, I'm playing Huge Communitas v.79 maps with 4 extra major civs (so 16 major civs in total)

Edit 2: Disabled all mods save the core Community Patch ones. Still only 2-3 CSes, regardless of the map script or number of major civs in the game.

 

[Recursive]

Recursive, in what scenarios would you then be able to trade lump gold? IIRC, for embassies, open borders, defensive pacts, world maps, techs and war/peace declarations? I like the last three because you can't exploit it (as benefits on both sides are gained in full instantly), but defensive pacts, embassies and open borders could run into the same problem as trading for resources, so perhaps I'd eliminate that as well. On the other hand, I'm not sure why block it from being used on votes? I mean, once you've promised votes, they're cast automatically, so you can't go backsies, right?

I do like the ability to demand lump gold!

Changed my mind on demands, I tested it and it proved too exploitable - you can simply demand to cripple your opponent and then attack.

You have a point re: Embassies, Open Borders, Defensive Pacts, I'll disable those as well. But I wanted to make it available for Cities, World Maps, Techs and War/Peace declarations.

Vote agreements are cancelled if war is declared.

What I will do, however, is add an option in DiploAIOptions.sql to enable these trades.

I really like the changes to how the AI cares about World Congress. Passing their proposals/giving them World Congress seems to have a huge impact now.
Also just had Sweden declare war on me only to find out they had logistics and range cannons and blitz/formation on the Hakkapeliittas, first time AI has seemed genuinely scary to me. If they knew to avoid coast when they don't have naval supremacy vs a bunch of frigates I'd have probably lost that battle badly.

I'm glad it's more impactful!

Strange thing: I'm still seeing the same city-state issue reported above and apparently fixed with Hotfix #5. Started a bunch of games, only getting 2-3 CSes (checked the number via the 'Retire' screen). I reinstalled CPP (using the installer, and making sure I had the right settings - 43 civ DLL, no EUI - selected), reinstalled the appropriate hotfix, cleared cache, etc.; issue persists. Can file a formal bug report but I still have a bunch of other mods installed so not sure how useful that'll be.

Edit: should add, I'm playing Huge Communitas v.79 maps with 4 extra major civs (so 16 major civs in total)

Edit 2: Disabled all mods save the core Community Patch ones. Still only 2-3 CSes, regardless of the map script or number of major civs in the game.

I suggest making a bug report, then.

 

[cpm4001]

Right so then, bug report submitted. Cheers!

 

[Recursive]

For next version, I have fixed the exploit wherein you can bypass a Peace Treaty by declaring war on a Defensive Pact/master/vassal. I predict many people will be happy about this.

 

[Grassland Farm]

Some small piece of feedback: I have the tiniest army ever known to man and feels like the AIs aren't trying to punish me for that. Hell, I even have a close neighbour offering me a Defensive Pact with some extra gold from them to pay for the pact...
Not saying it should NEVER happen, but might be worth a look.

 

[Recursive]

Some small piece of feedback: I have the tiniest army ever known to man and feels like the AIs aren't trying to punish me for that. Hell, I even have a close neighbour offering me a Defensive Pact with some extra gold from them to pay for the pact...
Not saying it should NEVER happen, but might be worth a look.

AI opportunity aggression was greatly reduced unless they have a reason to attack you.

If you are competitive for victory or are denouncing them/etc. and they're not being aggressive, that's a different story.

 

[General_Drax]

The Castle is still not showing on culture panel in 1/9. As suggested on Gazebo github by myeong1129 deleting the Spanish mission is a good workaround if you are not playing Spain ofc.

Posting here for visibility.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

What I will do, however, is add an option in DiploAIOptions.sql to enable these trades.

Could an option to include lump sums whenever (or at least between friends) be there too?

 

[Recursive]

Could an option to include lump sums whenever (or at least between friends) be there too?

Yes, that's what I added.

 

[JamesNinelives]

(just a bit, its not way off)

This is great to hear, honestly. There are so many ways that resource trading can go wrong, that about right is a decent outcome .

1) In general Freedom's tenents feel pretty good, but I do think at minimum we should swap Arsenal of Democracy and Draft Registration. AoD is not very strong, but at least at Tier 1 you have more time to let its influence bonus work, at Tier 2 the influence is way too low (its probably still weak at tier 1 but then at least it has a chance). Meanwhile Draft Registration is amazing, I would still consider it at Tier 2.

Really? I actually quite like AoD at Tier 2. The influence is the secondary aspect not the main reason for taking it, no? Unless something has changed recently that I missed.

 

[CyberPhy]

AI opportunity aggression was greatly reduced unless they have a reason to attack you.

If you are competitive for victory or are denouncing them/etc. and they're not being aggressive, that's a different story.

I've noticed this also, it make the game feel easier compared to the last version even with aggressive mode on.
The AI should have no problem taking me over but they don't even try

 

[Recursive]

I've noticed this also, it make the game feel easier compared to the last version even with aggressive mode on.
The AI should have no problem taking me over but they don't even try

I'll make some adjustments...

 

[InkAxis]

Why is the mission even still in the game? You can see it in the pedia and everything, doesn't spain not have it anymore? You can't even build it right?

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I've noticed this also, it make the game feel easier compared to the last version even with aggressive mode on.
The AI should have no problem taking me over but they don't even try

And should they? Did they have a lot of room to expand still? Did they have enough cities already? Did they have unhappiness problems, or close to it? Did they consider you as a friend, or have no reason to attack, other than "just" for the sake of attacking (expanding)? Were they civs that have generally more friendly flavours, or those that like to go and eat a civ for every major meal? Are you on higher difficulties? Did you ignore their request? Are you competing for City-States / Wonders? Were there others that they had planned attacking, or maybe considered you to be a help against someone else? It's an equation with a lot of variables

I'm not against an aggressive AI, but it should be reasonable. I had my southern part whopped twice now by the AI, one joint war when after they were done finishing my poor neighbour they turned to me, other one Rome being Rome and expanding in the early game (and me being comfy and ignoring my army) All fair and square. (but at least I managed to stop two Mongol invasions in my current game yay!) And all of that on Emperor / Huge map, what's unless I make some grave mistakes is usually pretty comfortable for me.

Not to mention that a hyper-aggressive AI can put itself into a worse position: if they have DPs, the human has just bypassed it. A warring civ is also a more potential attack for others to attack (unless I'm mistaken, Recursive can correct me), and there is also war weariness, diplomatic penalties, etc. A slight increase probably wouldn't hurt if they have clear objectives against you, but these also have to be taken into consideration.

The point I'm trying to make is that just because you (or the AI) can do something, doesn't necessarily mean you (or the AI) should do it. At some degree, I think you should be able to overcome your military weakness by diplomatic means (however, if they hate you or have a clear reason to invade you, could do it easily and they don't do it, now then that's definitely something to adjust). And let us not forget to draw conclusions only after a fair number of games (I'm not saying you didn't, just an advice that I also have to tell myself ).

Poor Recursive is adjusting aggressivity back and forth between each patch (but at least hopefully we're getting closer to the optimal one by each step )

I feel the AI to be quite alive and dynamic (just an example from the same game: Ethiopa and I have some beefs regarding religion and CSs, but against the Mongol threat we made DoF, DP, and so on. That's exactly what I call as reasonable diplomacy!) It was really good before, and now I feel like some really good steps have been taken to make it even better!

 

[Recursive]

And should they? Did they have a lot of room to expand still? Did they have enough cities already? Did they have unhappiness problems, or close to it? Did they consider you as a friend, or have no reason to attack, other than "just" for the sake of attacking (expanding)? Were they civs that have generally more friendly flavours, or those that like to go and eat a civ for every major meal? Are you on higher difficulties? Did you ignore their request? Are you competing for City-States / Wonders? Were there others that they had planned attacking, or maybe considered you to be a help against someone else? It's an equation with a lot of variables

I'm not against an aggressive AI, but it should be reasonable. I had my southern part whopped twice now by the AI, one joint war when after they were done finishing my poor neighbour they turned to me, other one Rome being Rome and expanding in the early game (and me being comfy and ignoring my army) All fair and square. (but at least I managed to stop two Mongol invasions in my current game yay!) And all of that on Emperor / Huge map, what's unless I make some grave mistakes is usually pretty comfortable for me.

Not to mention that a hyper-aggressive AI can put itself into a worse position: if they have DPs, the human has just bypassed it. A warring civ is also a more potential attack for others to attack (unless I'm mistaken, Recursive can correct me), and there is also war weariness, diplomatic penalties, etc. A slight increase probably wouldn't hurt if they have clear objectives against you, but these also have to be taken into consideration.

The point I'm trying to make is that just because you (or the AI) can do something, doesn't necessarily mean you (or the AI) should do it. At some degree, I think you should be able to overcome your military weakness by diplomatic means (however, if they hate you or have a clear reason to invade you, could do it easily and they don't do it, now then that's definitely something to adjust). And let us not forget to draw conclusions only after a fair number of games (I'm not saying you didn't, just an advice that I also have to tell myself ).

Poor Recursive is adjusting aggressivity back and forth between each patch (but at least hopefully we're getting closer to the optimal one by each step )

I feel the AI to be quite alive and dynamic (just an example from the same game: Ethiopa and I have some beefs regarding religion and CSs, but against the Mongol threat we made DoF, DP, and so on. That's exactly what I call as reasonable diplomacy!) It was really good before, and now I feel like some really good steps have been taken to make it even better!

Thanks for the feedback!

There were in fact some issues with AI aggression, I've made adjustments for next version. Hoping it won't be too aggressive.

 

[aandrzej]

Ai so no non-agressive that i start to miss the old times

 

[doublex55]

I've noticed this also, it make the game feel easier compared to the last version even with aggressive mode on.
The AI should have no problem taking me over but they don't even try

Agree. Having a composite bowman, 2 spearman, and a pathfinder shouldn’t be enough to scare enemies from attacking you in late medical era. Enemy civs have knights FFS. December patch immortal difficulty. Hope it didn’t get even easier since then...

 

[dailyminerals]

Thanks for the feedback!

There were in fact some issues with AI aggression, I've made adjustments for next version. Hoping it won't be too aggressive.

Politely asking when do think this version will be fixed up and out of beta?

 

[azum4roll]

Some small piece of feedback: I have the tiniest army ever known to man and feels like the AIs aren't trying to punish me for that. Hell, I even have a close neighbour offering me a Defensive Pact with some extra gold from them to pay for the pact...
Not saying it should NEVER happen, but might be worth a look.

Is Defensive Pact value calculated correctly? Previous version when I had the largest army in the world by far everyone was asking me for my gold to make a DP. They should've been paying me for protection!