On archers and city defence

kenken244

Grammar Nazi
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Feb 26, 2007
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I’ve never liked how archers are rarely used, and that melee units are just as good as archers are, but are much more versatile. Melee units end up being more important to your defense than archers. The reason is that melee units can defeat an attacking force.

There is a very simple solution to this; the capacity for it is already in the xml. The solution is ranged attacks. Ranged attacks work like this: when a non-air unit has a non-zero value for both its air combat value and it’s range value, then a unit can perform a ranged attack. The unit can then attack any tile within its range, attacking who would be the normal defender. The damage done is based off of the unit’s air combat value and any modifiers that would apply if the unit engaged in normal combat. The unit will then deal collateral damage to the stack like a normal attack.

Ranged attacks would also allow archery units some extra uniqueness. Marksmen could attack within two tiles with a very strong hit but no collateral damage, archers and longbowmen could have normal strength attacks within two tiles and deal moderate collateral damage and crossbowmen and flurries could attack within one square with lots of collateral damage. Then archers could defend the city’s fat cross, marksmen could assassinate mages from a distance, and crossbowmen could meet units in the field. I would also suggest that archers are given an extra move to simulate their lighter armor and give them more synergy with the blitz and drill line.

Even if archers are fixed like that, there still is one thing that is really unrealistic; a city with walls is just as defendable as one without walls. Firstly, I would get rid of cultural defense. Instead, culture would only have an effect on revolt time. Next I would replace archer’s city defense modifier with a bonus to the defensive value of the tile. This way an archer won’t be able to defend very easily even if the city has it’s walls destroyed. Then I would add more defensive buildings. These wouldn’t be just defense buildings, some could also have other effects; some could reduce the damage taken from bombardment, some could make defenses repair faster, others could increase the effect of other fortifications, and so on. Then, so that these buildings aren’t blown up in a single turn, I would make fireballs unable to bombard, and reduce meteor bombardment to 5% each. This way, your defenses will not be destroyed before an attacker can even get to it.

These changes would make a defender have to invest more to defend his territory instead of having defense be generated automatically without having to build anything, and would make taking cities be difficult like it should be instead of being able to destroy a civ without facing any problems.
 
I was planning to copy AoI's barrage mechaninc for my modmod, with a few changes for tile/building/improvement defense, but I think it may just be easier to implement it as you suggested it. I'm not quite sure where the problem is in the code I modified and put in the first version of my modmod, so I was already thinking of doing this (since playing a game of the Defense mod, where they do exactly as you suggest).


I was also planning on removing the cultural defenses from all but the highest few culture levels, and probably reducing those. (I'm also considering making the higher levels require more culture, and letting you reach the fat cross size a little sooner.)


Of course, it would be better if the buttons were changed, but that might be odd as I was also planing on adding an upgraded form of Birds (I'm renaming Hawks birds, since I'm using the old Raven and Hawk graphics as civ specific graphics).
 
Yeah, I think so. You could, for instance, also give archers an intercept chance so that they would "return fire at range" and defend stacks from ranged attacks. You could also set different evasion chances for different units so, for instance, Marksmen could have a much higher chance of actually landing their attack than crossbowmen would.
 
I dont like giving archers these ranged attack cuz it will steal a lot from the mages uniqness and abilites. And who says that these abilites could only work on defence? Then we will start seeing ofensive raids using archers.

I would much rather give archers uniqness and abilities by giving them interesting propmotions if they are stationed in a city or casstle.

Example of possible promotions given when archers are in cities or casstles:

1. Support: ability similar to casting a spell which boosts ofensive of units in stack.

2. NAME (?): walls gives archers 50% protection versus collectoral damage.

3. Counter-attack: archers gains cultural, wall and castle bonuses also when attacking from a city.
 
I dont like giving archers these ranged attack cuz it will steal a lot from the mages uniqness and abilites. And who says that these abilites could only work on defence? Then we will start seeing ofensive raids using archers.

I would much rather give archers uniqness and abilities by giving them interesting propmotions if they are stationed in a city or casstle.

Example of possible promotions given when archers are in cities or casstles:

1. Support: ability similar to casting a spell which boosts ofensive of units in stack.

2. NAME (?): walls gives archers 50% protection versus collectoral damage.

3. Counter-attack: archers gains cultural, wall and castle bonuses also when attacking from a city.


I think mages have enough power already. They make catapults totally unnecessary and have many many other benefits beside. I don't know whetehr giving the archers this stuff is a good idea but I think that not doing it cuz it takes away from mages is a bad reason not to do it.

Also I'd like to see some city buildings built that help block fireball damage. I think fireballs/meteor swarms are far too easy to use and too hard to counter for the same resource investment.
 
you could set the barrage/ranged attack to only work in cities (not sure if possible, though some other spells also have city limitations). That would prevent them from using it on offence. Archers gaining an additional defence bonus from walls would make perfect sence, could be tough to implement though. Attacking from a city? usually the armies are outside of archer range during a siege, so it would require them to go outside the walls to attack, negating the wall bonus.
 
And by the way, the BtS made air combat quit interesting. Is it possible to exploit this also in FHII? Maybe archers can be given a small intercept ability?

Introduce GREAT EAGLES, or something which can:
do all the things which normal eagles can, but with much higher range and
with the added ability to be able to intercept!

Flying Airship:
Flying unit able to carry units. (aka the helicopter in civIII)
LONG RANGE (15?) but without the ability to rebase...

We dont need to introduce the ability for air units to do damge to land units, but
some inteception could still be very nice.
 
I think mages have enough power already. They make catapults totally unnecessary and have many many other benefits beside. I don't know whetehr giving the archers this stuff is a good idea but I think that not doing it cuz it takes away from mages is a bad reason not to do it.

Also I'd like to see some city buildings built that help block fireball damage. I think fireballs/meteor swarms are far too easy to use and too hard to counter for the same resource investment.

part of my suggestion was to make fireballs unable to bombard...

you could set the barrage/ranged attack to only work in cities (not sure if possible, though some other spells also have city limitations). That would prevent them from using it on offence. Archers gaining an additional defence bonus from walls would make perfect sence, could be tough to implement though. Attacking from a city? usually the armies are outside of archer range during a siege, so it would require them to go outside the walls to attack, negating the wall bonus.

I personally am fine if archers are able to be used on attack. ranged attacks seem to be greatly effected by terrain defence in my personal tests, and since archers can't bombard they would be really weak. And as long as siege weapons are stronger in both collateral damage and strength, then archers would be still rarely used on attack.
 
my favorite suggestion involves the archer / wall modification.

city walls are a ridiculously weak building and a simple, flavorsome way of balancing both this and archers is for them to improve all archery units fortified inside.

1 change:
city walls added feature of +25% strength to archery units

archers are still getting no attention from the team after some 5 billion threads of balance complaint... i really dont know what it will take for them to be made useful!
 
So like this:
Archer: STR 3, range 1 attack.
Longbow: STR 5, range 2, moderate collateral attack.
Marksmen: Str ~10, range 2, no collateral attack to weakest target.
Flurry: Str 9, range 2, moderate collateral, causes collateral damage when defending.
T3 crossbow: Str 7, range 1, light collateral.
T4 crossbow: Str 10, range 1, moderate collateral.
Arbeques: Str 10, range 1, no collateral, ignores half of city defense.
 
I think it might be nice for being garrisoned in cities with walls or in forts/castles/citadels to give temporary promotions that increase <iAirRangeChange>, <iInterceptChange>, and <iEvasionChange>.

Too bad we can't make promotions appear and disappear based on cities/features/improvements/etc like we could when the sentry tower and forest stealth promotions were in.
 
i think the key would be to improve the archers just enough so that they are competitive and useful - but not overpowered. I would fear that over-improving them would basically turn the tables and make it so we don't use melee units for city defense.
 
i think the key would be to improve the archers just enough so that they are competitive and useful - but not overpowered. I would fear that over-improving them would basically turn the tables and make it so we don't use melee units for city defense.

Well I don't see how a melee unit would even be able to defend cities, in order to actually attack it's foe it would have to leave the walls and eliminate all defence they provide, along with possibly allowing the enemy to sneak behind them when they open the gates.

my favorite suggestion involves the archer / wall modification.

city walls are a ridiculously weak building and a simple, flavorsome way of balancing both this and archers is for them to improve all archery units fortified inside.

1 change:
city walls added feature of +25% strength to archery units

archers are still getting no attention from the team after some 5 billion threads of balance complaint... i really dont know what it will take for them to be made useful!

I don't see how being behind walls would make an archers arrows any stronger. the increase in defence from walls is already handled by giving them a precent increase to tile defence.
 
Being behind walls isn't all that important (although an archer could fire up and have the barrage of arrows hit the enemy without ever revealing his position. Since he couldn't target, this wouldn't work well with just one archer, but with enough it could help)

Of course, it is more likely that the archers wouldn't be so much behind the walls as on top of them (or better yet, if the wall has crenelations they can be fire from behind the walls shelter from atop platforms near the top). Firing from higher ground increases the archer's range, and gravity would increase the arrows' force upon impact.
 
what if we give the bombard a maximum damage. ie 75- 80% max damage. so they dont kill enemy units right out but severly weaken them. few battles on earth were won by archers alone (although i think Waterloo was a very famous english longbow vs french knight one)
 
I was thinking it could be cool if only marksmen could kill at range, the rest only soften up stacks. (It might require SDK changes to get it working like that.)
 
I am definately planning on giving archers a ranged attack for my personal modmod; mainly so that I actually have a reason to field them, but also because it seems a shame for all the nice range attack/air combat code to go to waste (I'm gonna add bigger Hawk-type units, too).

The other thing I did to help city defense is add a building requiring Walls, the Castle, that among other things gives free City Garrison to Archer/Disciple units built in the city. This both encourages building walls and does ~wonders~ for the ability of Archers to defend; with a couple good civics/other passive XP bonuses, Archers can easily start with City Garrison III in a city with a Castle.

And to deal with Fireballs and Meteors being HORRIBLY overpowered (they really are; my main argument for this point is that they outclass 75% of the summons in the game at their respective levels), I gave them a damage limit, like Catapults, so they can't kill units.

Humorously enough, this actually makes Fireballs ~more~ useful, as you can reliably use them to weaken a unit enough that your Mage can kill it for XP. :)
 
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