Orbis - the original thread

[Seon]

Okay, the idea is that, if you get into a contract with the Hippie, than at least you know that they will not break the contract to preserve their reputation as a mercenary, but if you get into a contract with the Svarts, chances are that there already is a poisoned dagger flying towards your neck, you just don't know it until you collapse jibbering 3 days later when the poison takes effect. Your dying thoughts would be on how Svart managed to stick a knife in you without you noticing, but at least it proves something about them.

 

[A Golden Dragon]

btw. something i hate on worker automation, is that they sometimes build over mananodes, now i have seen in the option screen that it is possible to make them old improvements and trees alone, is it possible to include such an option for mananodes to?

 

[Isotope]

About alignments: Why are all the Svartalfar leaders evil? I can understand why Faeryl is evil, being paired against good Arendel; but IIRC, Amelanchier is neutral, so this mean that either Rivanna or Volanna could be other than evil. The Svarts really don't sound that evil.

It would be nice to implement Broader Alignments. In FF Faeryl was around -200 whilst sheaim were nearly -400 and Hyborem -500, I think.

 

[Gray-Z]

What do you need for mithril weapons for troops. I've researched mithril working. I have mithril mines. Constructed Caminus Aureus. Yet no mithrim weapons for anyone. What gives?

 

[Isotope]

Hello.
I think there's a bug with the xml tag "MaxCities".
If I make a trait which limits max cities, it also allows them to work the 3rd plot range even if I don't change to "1" the Sprawling xml tag. I haven't tried doing this with vanilla FFH2 so I don't know wether it's Orbi or vanilla problem.

 

[Ahwaric]

Reading about the espionage problems above, I thought it would be cool if the ratcatcher units could have a promotion to switch between attack mode and espionage. So in attack mode they would be like weak assassin units with a strength of 2 and marksman.

That would create even more problems. Now, it is much simpler to make sure they do not get the extra strength from promotions. It would be possible, but why would you want a ratcatcher do assassins job if you can simply get an assassin?
Allowing assassins work as spies has another drawback - spies can be stumbled upon and that kills them. Do you really want it for your combat assassins?

btw. something i hate on worker automation, is that they sometimes build over mananodes, now i have seen in the option screen that it is possible to make them old improvements and trees alone, is it possible to include such an option for mananodes to?

I thought that mana nodes do count as improvements and as such are spared by workers? Am I wrong?

It would be nice to implement Broader Alignments. In FF Faeryl was around -200 whilst sheaim were nearly -400 and Hyborem -500, I think.

Broader alignments sound great on paper, but they have many cons' too. One is, as I already posted here, AI can't tell right from wrond and all civs turn evil... Plus the mechanics can't tell the difference between the sacrifice that must be done to stop infernals etc and the one that serves them - both are equally evil. Also, it does not really add that much to gameplay. So I do not think it will be in Orbis any time soon.

What do you need for mithril weapons for troops. I've researched mithril working. I have mithril mines. Constructed Caminus Aureus. Yet no mithrim weapons for anyone. What gives?

Patch C unfortunatelly... The weapon promos (and many other) work differently in 0.22. You do not see the difference on teh surface that much, but it is quite huge - Xienwolf did a great job for FF and I got it here.
I forgot to enable mithril weapons for unitcombats, so none has it. If you know how to edit xml or use Orbis editor it is really easy to fix.

Hello.
I think there's a bug with the xml tag "MaxCities".
If I make a trait which limits max cities, it also allows them to work the 3rd plot range even if I don't change to "1" the Sprawling xml tag. I haven't tried doing this with vanilla FFH2 so I don't know wether it's Orbi or vanilla problem.

I can't check it now, but I think it is from FfH. Will have to check it anyway...

 

[Seon]

I have this bad feeling about CotD going even faster and wyrmhold granting 1 gold for every cotd infected cities in the world. First of all, the disease of CotD spreads extremely fast, in one game as the Kuriotates, I managed to infect 75% of the cities in Erebus, and 100% of the Illians. This was late game and imagine that with granting 1 gold per turn, this would, if used with guilds and bazaar of MAmmon, grant you extremely potent economy

 

[A Golden Dragon]

Originally Posted by A Golden Dragon
btw. something i hate on worker automation, is that they sometimes build over mananodes, now i have seen in the option screen that it is possible to make them old improvements and trees alone, is it possible to include such an option for mananodes to?

I thought that mana nodes do count as improvements and as such are spared by workers? Am I wrong?

seems so, i have noticed it on several occation's
---------

I have this bad feeling about CotD going even faster and wyrmhold granting 1 gold for every cotd infected cities in the world. First of all, the disease of CotD spreads extremely fast, in one game as the Kuriotates, I managed to infect 75% of the cities in Erebus, and 100% of the Illians. This was late game and imagine that with granting 1 gold per turn, this would, if used with guilds and bazaar of MAmmon, grant you extremely potent economy

well it works more like other religions now. though it spreads very fast.

@ ahwaric, perhaps make it an adoptable religion? Combining it with another religion seems to give great bonusses indeed. This would require some mayor changes though.

 

[arkham4269]

I know I really your elemental idea. The elemental essences and such fit taoism I think. The only problem I see, eastern elements are different than the ones we are used in the west. Wood elemental anyone?

That was sort of the point I was trying to make. To me, the Kahdi fit in with that whole naturalistic philosophy of the east and thus might use the 'magic of nature' in a different way than you might get with the FoL for example. I was also thinking that Taoism and Shintoism both center on the divine in the world but tend to get away from worshiping deified personifications. So while the Kadhi may be 'agnostic' they are not denying the Gods, but more of worshiping the divine in a more broad way.

In regard to their gate creatures, I just used the ice/fire/rock/air elementals as an example since they are familiar and already exist. However, I'd much rather see Civ specific things like wood elementals or what have you. I think making them unique is better for the game, more interesting and will make their Civ more Asian than just changing the unit animations for the more common units.

Plus, it gives people a chance to do some research into another culture's creatures, myths and lore. Always a good thing!

I know, it took me some time, too. But she is and even can flirt with Falamar...

I think Falamar watched to much Japanese anime when he was young and impressionable and it warped his fashion sense.

To me, she is like a she-wolf, always protecting her pack. I do not think it makes her evil.

I agree. Even if you go along with the whole theme that the Doviello live by the Nietzschean idea of "what does not kill us makes us stronger" you could seem them getting into fights to test themselves. That isn't evil, just them making sure they are strong enough to survive in a rough world.

 

[Isotope]

Another thing, I think spionage isn't complete without spy specialists and great spies.

 

[Wauthan]

Thanks for reporting this, I will block ratcatchers from getting sinister (and poisoned blade/blessed when we are at that). Good thing it is possible now using Xienwolf's code.
Do you think they should be recon units? And have combat strength? Upgrade to assassins? Does AI use espionage, especially the active missions?
Not much time to test it for myself, you know.
Catcherrat... You mean skaven hunter? I am thinking of some short menace from time to time. Goblins are not annoying enough (well, wolf riders probably are...), so maybe Skavens are the answer

Glad to hear you had an easy fix for this. The Ratcatchers should be recon, since any other class would not make sense. In my opinion they should not be able to upgrade. Being trained as a spy is a very different thing compared to being trained as an assassin, at least in the setting of FFH. I like the fact that the unit is weak and vulnerable. Makes you careful with deploying it. I would also like if there was a limit on how many you could build. Four Ratchatchers are more then enough to completely pin down an enemy city.

The AI, as expected, makes little use of the Ratcatchers. I encountered only two enemy spy missions in my last epic game. And passive spying of course tells the AI nothing it didn't already know.

Sadly version 0.22 is a lot less stable then 0.21. I'm not sure why but I suspect the passive espionage is responsible for at least some of the added strain.

And, while I greatly hesitate to say it, I have to admit that Orbis is starting to loose a bit of the charm I felt it had. I already know you're a bit of a tinkerer Ahwaric. And the hardest thing for a tinkerer is to put his tools down and say "There, it's finished".

What are your plans for Orbis Final Version? Do you have checklist? You have long since exceeded the mod you set out to create. At least that's the impression I get from rereading the beginning this thread.

 

[Isotope]

Balance; High level techs in some trees are nothing in others. Feral Bond and the Baron, and Beastmasters, (6000ish each) combined, cost less than Armored Cav, Warmounts, (15-20keach) etc... or, taken alone, Stirrups!!! - Horse Archers or the Baron, you choose? Optics (8000) or Religious Law or Medicine? It seems that the high levels are just not balanced.

Silos; I know. 'Specialization is the name of this game.' I don't care. I want a linked tech tree, I want natural advancement, and I do not want to reach 'pinnacle' techs like mercantilism and have them be a pinnacle! I want them integrated in the tree, with medicine, polearms, divine essence, and so on. I want to expand the lineup - so that we have more than 3/4 tiers of most units, and so that high priests and archmages don't come after all players (could be) fielding beastmasters and marksmen. I'd also like to make water and windmills worth something again.

So what does this rant come to? I don't know. I still have pages of notes of how I'd like to accomplish this. Orbimod fits my bill very close, and I can expand the entire low to mid tree to fit my needs. I have yet to successfully, ever, tie the silos at the to of the tree really together in my head.... how to we draw it to a close near the end game while still allowing people to play with their unique units?

Second, I'd love to hear opinions on this. I'd also love to do it, but I know my time constraints lately - I can't make these graphics even if I were to design a replacement tech tree again. (Much as I'd love to.) What does anyone think? I want - a longer FfH.

Make a post explaining in detail your changes. Ahwaric will read and implement some if he likes.

 

[Ahwaric]

That was sort of the point I was trying to make. To me, the Kahdi fit in with that whole naturalistic philosophy of the east and thus might use the 'magic of nature' in a different way than you might get with the FoL for example. I was also thinking that Taoism and Shintoism both center on the divine in the world but tend to get away from worshiping deified personifications. So while the Kadhi may be 'agnostic' they are not denying the Gods, but more of worshiping the divine in a more broad way.
In regard to their gate creatures I think making them unique is better for the game, more interesting and will make their Civ more Asian than just changing the unit animations for the more common units.
Plus, it gives people a chance to do some research into another culture's creatures, myths and lore. Always a good thing!

Yeah, the one that will have to do the most research is me. I am not that good in eastern lore... Guess I will do some reading when I have a time, plus play three kingdoms mod...
Anyway, I like it. But I think I will change the civ name - the differences would be too big to justify naming them Khadi. But the above concept is a start.
I think I will keep to classic elements, maybe add metal & aether ones...

Another thing, I think spionage isn't complete without spy specialists and great spies.

Well, I do not see much use for great spies, and thus for spy specialist. I want to flavour espionage (the current is just a draft BtS version), but do not think spy specialist is the way.

Four Ratchatchers are more then enough to completely pin down an enemy city.
The AI, as expected, makes little use of the Ratcatchers.

I think you have really good ideas here. I will limit the numbers to 4 plus remove the upgrade path. I did not feel comfortable with it.
I wonder why ratcatchers are rare...

Sadly version 0.22 is a lot less stable then 0.21. I'm not sure why but I suspect the passive espionage is responsible for at least some of the added strain.

Does it crash? Please give me details, maybe I will find a way to increase stability.
0.22 has a lot of changed code, I moved to Xienwolf's modcomp core things, so it could temporary decrease stability (before I fix it), especially that my coding abilities are not that good.

And, while I greatly hesitate to say it, I have to admit that Orbis is starting to loose a bit of the charm I felt it had. I already know you're a bit of a tinkerer Ahwaric. And the hardest thing for a tinkerer is to put his tools down and say "There, it's finished".
What are your plans for Orbis Final Version? Do you have checklist? You have long since exceeded the mod you set out to create. At least that's the impression I get from rereading the beginning this thread.

There is no such time I think... But I have added most of the features I wanted. I wanted to add espionage from the start - in fact, it was in the version I used before releasing orbi but decided it is not ready. It took almost a year to add it back. Same applies to Scions - I had to learn a lot.
Right now, I want to concentrate on tweaking. Flavour, art, AI - that is where I plan to work. Some bigger things too, but only if I am really sure I want them in.
Where do you think the charm suffered the most?

EDIT:

Make a post explaining in detail your changes. Ahwaric will read and implement some if he likes.

Could not say it better myself. Any feedback, especially with precise proposals, is welcomed.

 

[Wauthan]

Does it crash? Please give me details, maybe I will find a way to increase stability.
0.22 has a lot of changed code, I moved to Xienwolf's modcomp core things, so it could temporary decrease stability (before I fix it), especially that my coding abilities are not that good.

There is no such time I think... But I have added most of the features I wanted. I wanted to add espionage from the start - in fact, it was in the version I used before releasing orbi but decided it is not ready. It took almost a year to add it back. Same applies to Scions - I had to learn a lot.
Right now, I want to concentrate on tweaking. Flavour, art, AI - that is where I plan to work. Some bigger things too, but only if I am really sure I want them in.
Where do you think the charm suffered the most?

Unfortunately I haven't been able to narrow down the crash issue yet. But since no one else have reported any problems I guess it might simply be my rig acting up. As for the loss of charm... Well that's the trouble isn't it? Sort of hard to narrow down.

I think it's mainly due to the growing complexity. I constantly find myself unable to keep track of all the information. Espionage, minor leader traits, should I build castle commanders, what buffs is granted in what city, which units are currently debuffed, what improvements are the best to build at the current tech level, etc.

But one of the more tanglible issues is the fact that Orbis empowers the basic units. The animal totem promotions I already mentioned way back so I won't bring that up again. The metal upgrades are easier to gain in Orbis with the resource spawning. Buff spells last longer. Several buildings grant bonuses to units.

The problem is the AI, as usual, since I easily gain a huge advantage in unit quality. This is of course not due to Orbis, since it's present in the vanilla game, it's just that the mod polishes the players edge. Same thing with tile improvements. My economy is supercharged compared to the struggling AI. Only the elven civs can keep up in most games, though Lanun also seems to do surprisingly well. The guilds, and guild buildings, are in addition to the gold gained elsewhere.

In essence the loss of charm is the loss of challenge, mixed with burden of too many options. So, how to deal with this? Orbis gets you more resources. You've tackled food. Production, with the many tile bonuses, is a no issue in the late game. Fair enough, it speeds things up and at least the workers and the improvements are vulnerable. Commerce is very plentiful but there's few things that drain it. This makes gold almost a no issue. Perhaps units drain more gold the higher "tier" they are? Quality over quantity?

Perhaps Armageddon counter drains technology? Not for the Sheiam though. Would slow down the end game techsplosion, and make stealing tech espionage more useful. Perhaps five set events, or buildings by the barbarians, that increase the AC by ten? The four riders, and all the "big" units, have been greatly helped by the archer nerf. No longer can three crossbowmen deal with anything hell can throw against you. Still, they are far from the Godzilla like terrors I imagine them to be.

Feh! I'm rambling again. Better return to my current Orbis game instead.

 

[arkham4269]

And, while I greatly hesitate to say it, I have to admit that Orbis is starting to loose a bit of the charm I felt it had. I already know you're a bit of a tinkerer Ahwaric. And the hardest thing for a tinkerer is to put his tools down and say "There, it's finished".

What are your plans for Orbis Final Version? Do you have checklist? You have long since exceeded the mod you set out to create. At least that's the impression I get from rereading the beginning this thread.

While I'm sorry you feel like like this, I don't agree. I've actually gotten to the point where it's hard to play FF now that I played Orbis. Base FfH is almost like vanilla BTS now: it's just not played.

While I do believe there is a 'mostly done' standpoint, that's the whole point of mods: they can be changed as new things come up.

 

[Calcobrena]

I love this mod, but I can never finish a whole game.

I'm having consistent crashes in my games and i have no idea whats causing it. I've uninstalled and reinstalled all the files to make sure that wasn't it. Maybe its the settings? I play with erebus/huge/epic speed and increasing difficulty. And i'm running windows vista, i dunno if that matters. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Both of these are 1 turn before i crash.

 

[arkham4269]

Yeah, the one that will have to do the most research is me. I am not that good in eastern lore... Guess I will do some reading when I have a time, plus play three kingdoms mod...

Yeah, me too!

Anyway, I like it. But I think I will change the civ name - the differences would be too big to justify naming them Khadi. But the above concept is a start. I think I will keep to classic elements, maybe add metal & aether ones...

I agree. I never understood why with a leaderhead of Toshiro Mufuni ended up with a name like "Kahdi" which sound more Arabic to me. Of course many of the animations if FF for the Kahdi look Middle Eastern.

Personally I think you could fiddle with them, change the name and then in your "download my mod!" section, describe where you got them and how you changed them just like you did with the Scions.

Actually, I think you should do the same with the Matzal since they seem to be a bit different in Orbis and have a different back story.

 

[Pohlmann]

the combination of the 2 scientistguilds ist just way overpowered. founding both of them in my capital and spreading them in my 10 citys (kuriotates on standard -> 3 cities, 7 settlements) lead to me finishing research in turn 266 on emperor. while i research future tech 5 basium appears and most other civs dont even have iron working.

but still: great modmod

 

[Isotope]

Where do you think the charm suffered the most?

Needs more text. I remember the days when I spent hours reading and rereading leaders, heros and technologies civilopedia text entries and then playing again and again with some leader I sympathized or constantly micromanaging some hero I liked. A good backstory makes you feel the FFH2 fairytale and makes you want to play it because FFH2 is both a tale and a game. Personally I think the success of FFH2 is this well made combination: You can read but unlike books you can also play.
In the end, not only the technical changes attract but an elaborated backstory as well.

The background of all minor leaders are completelly empty as well as several techonogies, UUs and UBs, and civics. Things like that can be done by anyone who knows FFH2 lore but theese details are starting to lose their charm to the ones who already red them because they were never actualized. FFH2 has good modders but I think there's a lack of writers willing to work whith civilopedia.

For example, from where comes Verocchio? Personality? I'm sure it's not a random character you invented, and if it is, more reason to support him with a background. And Maer? Who she is? What about Boris? Also, mechanos text entry can be amplified.


Another point are civics and traits. If you could make more advanced options to be available to be changed by XML it would encourage people with no knowlege to do their own little changes as they see fit. I, for example, spend more time meddling with buildings, units, traits and civics than playing the game. If I could meddle with dlls and python as well I would probably be doing the same as you.
For example, when you changed Financial trait to give happines with tax office. That made available a whole new tag to play with. Same goes to FeatureGrowthRate from Dexterous and Sinister and the peace conditioned commerce modification tag that you added when changing Tolerant.

Orbi as well needs either you working the civilopedia or the aid of someone with an advanced english dominion and willingness to write.

 

[Seon]

I consider myself (or at least my parents) pretty good at Eastern Lore, especially China, Japan, and Korea .