Order vs Ashen Veil

[Thunder_Gr]

I think this is an interesting chance to see what most people think about these exact opposites.

I tend to think that Order is more powerful than AV. But, of course, it also matters which civ uses the one or the other.

Valin and Sphener complement eachother, supported by priests/crusaders/paladins(preferable upgraded from priests to retain the spell casting), can tear apart any AV resistance. Immune to disease(nullifies diseased corpses), bonus vs demons, bless(+1 holy damage, more effective against AV creatures), the only real danger comes from the ring of fire, but can be arranged with some magic resistance.

So, what do you think?

 

[xalien]

AV also has Beasts of Agares and ring of fire casting eidolons are crazy. Then there's StW and ability to run Undercouncil. Yeah, I'll take AV.

 

[cyther]

The Veil has more cool stuff but Order just never stops. It will keep comming and comming until it crushes you. Plus demon slaying takes care of Eidolons and Beasts of Agares faster than they can be built.

 

[Senethro]

Order is the religion of the Haves, Ashen Veil is the religion of the Have Nots. A less developed empire with less strategic resources will be hurt less by raising the Armageddon Counter and turning into Hell terrain.

I prefer Ashen Veil especially with my favorite civ, the Doviello. I think that an Axeman invasion supported by Rust Adepts and RoF Veil priests is hilarious.

 

[petepetepetep]

Order lets you put as many happy faces as you want, anywhere you want to put them. Everything else is pretty much incidental.

 

[Mesix]

The research bonus that you get from AV is nice. It is one of the most unappreciated benefits to having AV IMHO.

BTW...I like pie.

 

[Honor]

I don't like AV, because it doesn't let me have size 35 über-cities like Order does with Social Order. Plus if I am the Sidar, I usually end up with a size 70-90 capital (great merchant spam ) in the late game, which can easily be kept content with unyielding order if I don't have the Tower of Complacency handy (stuffing 70 units into the capital for Social Order clutters the screen, so it is not really desirable).

 

[xalien]

Plus demon slaying takes care of Eidolons and Beasts of Agares faster than they can be built.

Demon Slaying < Stigmata.

 

[Luckmann]

I'd like to have Order tweaked a bit, so don't take this as "Omg it's overpowered don't nerf and/or change it!". But to me, Order is the clear winner.

The poll is claiming the opposite, though. Hearing mostly from the Pro-Order, isn't there anyone that wants to explain exactly as to why Ashen Veil is clearly more powerful?

 

[zup]

Initially Order might be better because of unyielding order and social order. If I can secure enough happy resources, it is not that important as I tend to build lots of buildings before I mass defenders. It might take lots of effort to protect your resources from hell though. Once future tech kicks in, I prefer AV, health and happiness issues are gone forever anyway. Since I do not play against human players who mass demon/undead slayers, demons and corpses are not in any particular danger. Hell terrain gives access to two important resources, sheut stones and nightmares. Besides, against a human opponent, hell terrain might discourage invasion. Why waste resources for taking land you don't want?

 

[Ajidica]

I feel Order is a bit more powerful due to Social Order, their Heros, and Crusaders with demon slaying. While Veil is fun and powerful and stronger than the Order in most respects, the Order is stronger overall. Veil is much nicer in a full game enviroment simply because it is really fun to burn the elves forests down (take that for settleing in my territory!). My opinion of the veil may be different because I play almost exclusivly with the Sheaim.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Order gives you a nice, but overrated, civic in social order (it shows up as natural happy caps are closing in on 20 anyways.. happiness past that is only worth much during a brutal war), fast spread, and a mehish pair of heroes. AV gives you a comparable but earlier powerful civic, a clone of one of the order heroes, a slightly better version of the other, and better priests in exchange for the really goddamn annoying AC events.

For most civs, you have a pretty even comparison between two of the junkier religions.

I voted that AV is slightly more powerful because there are a few civs which it has really strong synergies with to the point where it doesn't suck anymore. The Sheaim, who get bonuses from a high AC. The Malakim, who are much more reliant on priests than most civs and are well served to make the strength of priests a serious consideration when picking a religion. The Luchuirp, whose units are immune to a lot of the damage tied to the AC. I can't think of any such synergies for the order.

But for most civs, I don't consider chasing either religion. At least two of Empyrean, RoK, OO or FoL will be much better options.

 

[Iceciro]

Order, solely because AV raises the Armageddon Counter. And because I do a lit of playing in FF where StW is nerfed hard.

Even in standard FFH though... Armageddon Counter. The only people who want to see it high up are the Sheiam and the Infernals. Ring of Fire is fantastic though, the AV does get a nod on that. But so's maelstrom.

 

[Senethro]

Ring of Fire is a tier 2.5 spell, Maelstrom is tier 3. RoF is also associated with a spammable unit.

Veil Priests have unholy taint meaning non-Spr civs have an easier time raising them to Lvl. 6 for an extra Tier 4 unit.

StW gives an excellent synergy with Slavery civic for increased production, making an extra round of expansion worthwhile.

And finally: Infernal Grimoire. Or did you all forget?

 

[Ajidica]

I suppose if you are just looking at the religions, AV is more powerful, but in an actual game, Order is a bit stronger due to better empire manegement characteristics.

 

[Lade]

I like the Bannor, and like roleplaying. if you take into accoutn Basiliscs, courthouses, palace mana, and shrine mana, you already have -90% for city upkeep, and if you modded another 10% decrease for social order...

The main thing I dislike is their tire 3 priest's spell is worthless, since they already have a civic for increased happiness, and already have no worries about city upkeep. I wish their spell was more combat oriented to help them convert enemy units, and unyielding order became unyielding law for Law III.

I mean, why does the Empy have better combat priests then the order?

 

[Kenjister]

Order is about on par with the AV military wise, unless fighting the AV. Then it has the slight edge (demon slaying, bless, +holy damage). The Heroes are about balanced though, Sphener can use the AI garrisons that he captured and eliminate the need for a supply line making him slightly better than Mardero (who can only kill) but Rosier is better than Valin since the AI builds alot more diciples than demons.

Otherwise, they tend to have very different abilities which are about equal otherwise. So I voted approx equal.

 

[Iceciro]

T3 preist spell is not useless, especially for Bannor. You can use it to INSTANTLY end dissent in a captured city as well as giving it -100% maintenance, great for a far away invasion and giving you time to build courthouses/basilicas.

 

[Senethro]

Warriors are Tier 1, Acolytes are Tier 2 (doesn't mean they're useful), Confessors are Tier 2.5, Crusaders are Tier 3, Popes (whatever they're called) are Tier 4.

 

[kenken244]

Confessors are tier 3. The tiers are still intact from when there were many more types of units, almost each line having 4 tier 4 units coming from one tier 1 and 2 units.