Order vs Ashen Veil

[Senethro]

I don't think you can say Horse Archers and Priests occupy the same Tier 3 as Champions and Stygians. They clearly beat axemen, they arrive comparatively soon on cheap technologies so I see them as occupying their own mini-tier.

 

[Mesix]

Warriors are Tier 1, Acolytes are Tier 2 (doesn't mean they're useful), Confessors are Tier 2.5, Crusaders are Tier 3, Popes (whatever they're called) are Tier 4.

Tier 2.5?

I've always considered the Priesthood units to be Tier 3 units. Each religion gets a Tier 2 Diciple unit, a Tier 3 Priest unit and a Tier 4 Highpriest unit. Other units vary. The early religions (FoL, RoK, and OO) each get a Tier 2 unit that can upgrade to a Tier 3 unit later on. The Order only gets the Crusader unit. The Veil only gets Diseased Corpses.

I don't think you can say Horse Archers and Priests occupy the same Tier 3 as Champions and Stygians. They clearly beat axemen, they arrive comparatively soon on cheap technologies so I see them as occupying their own mini-tier.

I think that the Priest unit is generally stacked with your Tier 3 units as they go conquering to provide Medic II and other benefits and it later upgrades to a selection of tier 4 units which provide other benefits at about the same time that you are rolling out your first Tier 4 units of other types (Phalynx, Archmage, etc.). Upgrading from a Priest to a Highpriest requires level 6 the same as an Archmage or an Immortal.

Deciple units are not meant to provide the same combat utility as units of the same tier. They are meant to provide support to them. Arcane units have even lower , but you would be hard pressed to convince me that an Archmage anything but a Tier 4 unit.

 

[kenken244]

I don't think you can say Horse Archers and Priests occupy the same Tier 3 as Champions and Stygians. They clearly beat axemen, they arrive comparatively soon on cheap technologies so I see them as occupying their own mini-tier.

But I can.

scout -> horseman -> horse archer/chariot -> knight/war chariot/camel archer/war elephant

Tiers are based on placement in upgrade lines, not on strength. Besides, you can't compare two units based only on combat strength, by that logic archmages do not belong in the 4th tier. Horse archers have good withdrawl and movement.


Getting back on topic, I voted that AV is slightly better, because it is possible to turn off the AC/ hell terrain. Outside of that, I find them to be mostly equal.

 

[Senethro]

Archmages are clearly Tier 4 as they are attached to a technology worth many thousands of beakers and have the national unit limit.

Priests are obviously more powerful than Axemen because 10 Axemen and 2 Ritualists will beat 15 Axemen, maybe even 20 if they get to move first.

Ranking by strength as part of their assistance in a combined arms force and position in the tech tree makes more sense than where the unit was in versions prior to BTS.

 

[kenken244]

        <UnitInfo>
            <Class>UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER</Class>
            <Type>UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER</Type>
            [B]<iTier>3</iTier>[/B]
        </UnitInfo>

Horse archers are tier 3.

 

[Senethro]

Yeah, good luck using them against Iron Champions. If the AI is using those files then it could do with an update. Chariots are the Tier 3 unit for the Mounted line (but only once they have Iron).

 

[KillerClowns]

The AV is a lot flashier, and its bonuses more direct. Overall, I'd call it slightly more powerful, although recent changes (defense weakening direct damage spells like Ring of Flames) may tip the balance. Funnily enough, in a straight-out Order vs. AV situation, it would take an imbecile (i.e. the AI) to let the AC get high enough for Stigmata to make a difference. And Bless is a subtle but useful way to make cannon fodder more likely to come out and fight another day. It can depend on your exact civ, though; I never go anything but Order for the Hippus, and the Sheaim are, of course, the Veil's best buddies.

 

[Breunor]

I think I would vote for the Ashen Veil by some margin. I think their big advantage is 'Sacrifice the Weak'. Used in the right circumstances it can be very potent; obviously health is an issue but the food bonus is so great it can be a powerhouse. I also think the AV priests ultimately are better. Finally, when the AC is very high, the stigmata promotion can be substantial.

However, when I play the Bannor, I always play Order (mostly for role playing) but they are a great combo.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Earthling]

I'd say they are very balanced as a whole, assuming the civ has some synergy in each case. I'd think AV is probably a bit stronger if you're the one to found it/control it - the holy city w/ shrine, Grimoire, and getting their heroes beats out Order under the same circumstances. If you're not the first one to either religion it's probably slightly better to follow along with Order (of course the real best choice here would be a religion of your own) since you won't have to deal with Hell Terrain and all that. The key to Order is having friends with it as well, and Basium alone is not enough for this (I generally think Hyborem is more effective than Basium as an ally).

But take my opinions with a grain of salt - this is a combo of theory/playing against the AI. In a multiplayer match I don't know how things would work out (relative effectiveness of corpses and Ritualists and all as mentioned) - but then again non-rping MP seems silly to me right now too since players can change alignment/alliances/religion at will.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

One additional thing I forgot to mention, is the Domination IV(Only Order priests can get it). Last time I played against AV, I ended up with enlisting several AV troops to my cause.
It was a delight to see how the evil ones could see and understand the wrong in their ways and how readilly they casted their ring of fire against their former friends

 

[Rystic]

Demon Slaying < Stigmata.

Demonslaying should be made into Divine Slaying, giving +40% vs Angels and Demons.

 

[WarKirby]

Don't the diseased corpses have the ability to use metal weapons?

I don't think crusaders do...

Ring of flames though, is an incredible spell. AV is one of only two religions that have a direct damage spell available on their base priest. And while tsunami is a far better spell, it only works on coasts. Ring of Flames can be used anywhere.

 

[xalien]

Diseased corpse is equivalent to champion. They can use cannibalize which is nice, but can't use haste and regen which is not nice ... not nice at all. Crusader with blessed is the same as iron weapons champion.

 

[psychoak]

Senethro, being an absolutist only works when there's a single answer to a question.

Your scenario with ritualists and axemen turns out the exact same way if you use ritualists and champions instead. Your view that horse archers are inferior to champions is equally flawed. You've obviously never tried using the flanking promotions to good effect. With horselord or homeland, flanking 3 horse archers have excellent survival rates even with zero chance of killing their target. When you can attack and retreat outside of retaliation range, your power is more than you raw strength.

They are vastly superior to even mithril weapon champions for defense of your own lands unless the attacker has commando. The enemy unit strength is all but irrelevant to them, and after they've struck, those mithril weapon champions wont need to worry about losing combats against the surviving, damaged units, that got squat for experience from their hollow victories.

As for the question, depends on map size and victory conditions. If conquest is all you have running, order takes the cake on larger maps, there's simply no comparison between them when you've got a dozen cities with 80% maintenance reduction from the courthouse and basilica. AV fairs much better for more moderately sized maps where four or five cities isn't particularly strenuous on your maintenance anyway. Being able to run Godking at 80% science with a dozen cities just can't be stressed enough, it's badass. AV is just plain nasty with a small empire though, three or four good cities is about right, not much of an edge from Order at that level. Even with the high priests, you can't put the happiness to use anyway.

 

[PaleJackal]

So are Withdrawal Chances on a per round basis? (I assume that's how combat works, since that's how First Strikes work.)

Also, I assume when you have ~14 cities with fairly fertile land, City States/Sacrifice the Weak/Slavery/Conquest is superior to City States/Religious/Slavery/Foreign Trade.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Crusader with blessed is the same as iron weapons champion.

And "immune" to rust, and produced much faster. Champions were pretty much a waste of time against AV when having Order. Crusaders begin with disease immunity.

Diseased corpse have -30% strength due to being diseased, and they are practically useless against Order troops.

The best army IMO, against AV was Valin + Shpener + Many Priests + 4 High Priests + A lot more crusaders + 4 Paladins
And after a while +6-8 ritualists for softening the enemy
A couple of fireball mages help,too

 

[civ_king]

Withdraw chance is checked when an attack would otherwise kill the unit

 

[PaleJackal]

Withdraw chance is checked when an attack would otherwise kill the unit

Thanks, makes sense.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

It seems that AV is winning clearly. Not so much of a surprize really. I had only hopped for more posts with arguments.

For example, zup mentioned about being hard to keep resources as Order because of hell terrain, but he obviously had forgotten that hell terrain does not spread in Order lands. kenken244 voted for AV because you can use the option turn Hell Terrain off.

I really respect everyone's opinion. I just hope for a bit more justification.

As for religion/civ synerges, Bannor /w Order is a killer against AV. Getting the numbers of the clan(crusade), with no WW and the quality of Order +Theocracy+ Demagogs etc...etc, I can hardly think of any AV civ able to stand against this...The only way I can think of is crippling them berore they manage to go there.

 

[Iceciro]

Bannor with AV is pretty hilariously awesome too. Remember, Crusade is a civic that requires ANY religion. Theoretically you could have an esus crusade.