I don't see anything wrong there, shooting down russian planes by Nato won't have any response worth considering.
Ah yes, Russians are free to cause trouble, but any defense against trouble caused by Russians should be avoided because Russians would escalate, which makes it the fault of the one defending :crazyeye:

But then, that's the Russian constant argument after all, that defending against their attacks means threatening them which justifies their attacks that one is defending against :crazyeye:
 
Turkey already did it, and Moscow complained, but that was it.
Turkey has no nukes. That no fly zone was over "Turkey" (which took advantage of it to shoot down a russian plane in it for seconds). Furthermore, I think you forget what type of country you are talking about, likely because to you Russia being evil means the others are all flowers in the pot of peace.
 
Such massive attack would with near 100% certainty provoke tactical nuclear strikes against NATO airbases and other assets where these attacks will be launched from.
Ah, the games of deterrence and containment...

That's also strategic ambiguity. You might. But then you might not. Since a Russian nuclear first-strike would very likely engender a nuclear retaliation strike.
 
Nuclear missiles, more likely. It's a dangerous (and not bright) dream to think Russia would engage "all of Nato" conventionally.

I think there are 2 different discussions here. I was talking of intercepting cruise missiles flying near NATO borders, not about launching deep strikes in Russia, those are not needed for that task.
 
Turkey has no nukes. That no fly zone was over "Turkey" (which took advantage of it to shoot down a russian plane in it for seconds). Furthermore, I think you forget what type of country you are talking about, likely because to you Russia being evil means the others are all flowers in the pot of peace.
Poland has no nukes, so we're fine.
 
I think there are 2 different discussions here. I was talking of intercepting cruise missiles flying near NATO borders, not about launching deep strikes in Russia, those are not needed for that task.
No, Gedemon, the response was about Verbose's idea of Nato forcing a no fly zone over all of Ukraine.

I don't see what Poland has to do with it. It's not "all of Nato", it's just one very small military power in it.
 
I don't know, I might be inclined towards Edward's view that we should be wary of retaliation against GPS jamming just because your particular transport vehicle didn't have a proper backup navigation system. Losing GPS is not the end of the world (figuratively). It's not like your engine conked out.
The Russians have been fiddling with the GPS and flying unannounced "dark" aircraft into civilian air traffic lanes for over a decade now, and we all deal with it all the time. It's "normal". Just like Russia annexing Crimea was sorta kinda accepted as "normal". Or sending the Russian army into east Ukraine in 2014.

Not responding does not work. Russia just keeps escalating.

However, what has not been tried is raising the threat-profile that something COULD be done.

I mean, part of the reason the Baltic states are bricking it on a regular basis is precisely that they KNOW that there is no credible NATO force even in the horizon that could stop a Russian invasion.

As the Baltics have put it – they want to be defended, NOT "avenged" – at some later point when NATO has got its crap together and ousted the Russian occupiers at least 6-12 months later, when the Russians have asset-stripped the Baltic states down to the bedrock already.

They KNOW they can't hold off Russia on their own. Still, they have all opted for national defenses based on putting as many armed people as possible in holes in the ground, since that is the best way to just hold on to it. And no one but they are going to be around to do it.

That means they have little use for anything like airforce or navy. Others can fly and sail those in pdq instead.

But the reason they keep bricking it, is that the Baltics ALSO know that there really is nothing like a strategic NATO airforce assembled anywhere in the vicinity, or so far on the horizon even, that could come flying in and rain fiery death on a Russian invasion force, in a timely fashion, at scale. Which is why they keep bricking it.
 
Question is whether you want to check.
Defense against such kind of attack was precisely what tactical nukes were made for.
Right back at you.

It's the point of things like deterrence and strategic ambiguity. Would be a pity if it was only Russia playing those games. Being confronted with it might mix things up on the Russian side as well. Or you lot are all OK with anything because you go to heaven anyway, or how Putin's words fell?
 
Then everyone flew using huge civilian radar systems (that were pretty much a US monopoly).

Those have been decommissioned a generation ago now, being anything but cost-effective. Meaning, in order to make up the shortfall, military radars need to pick up the slack and provide info to air traffic control.

And of course, should Russia decide to launch a surprise attack, it can expected to coincide with NATO military radars being busy with directing civilian air traffic...
Um, no. This post is entirely wrong. Before GPS, civil navigation has been done using a radio beacon system which has nothing to do with radar technology which started to be installed in the 1920s consisting on a worldwide network of special radio antennas and emitters working in medium wave and VHF frequencies, placed in particular locations. There are directional ones (VOR) which give information about the radial the aircraft is plus information about distance and speed (the ones including a DME system), enough for any pilot to know exactly his situation, and there also are also older non-directional beacons (NDB) which works like artificial north poles and only gives info about the relative azimut of the plane respecting the beacon.
This navigation system is still in use today, mostly as backup after the GPS has popularized, yet every aircraft is still equiped with instruments to use the radio beacon system and every pilot is trained in this kind of navigation, particularly pilots with instrumental rating (all airline pilots ) who can fly with zero visibility using this system without using GPS at all. And airports still use departure and approach procedures entirely based on the radio beacon system, apart of other GPS based procedures.

Independently, air traffic control use radars to locate and track traffic, and give particular instructions to the pilots to avoid collisions, bad weather and such, but has little to do with navigation. Furthermore ATC has different fly zones, be it large regions or whole countries or smaller areas around airports, and they are operated by each country and airport authorities not by any US monopoly.

Resuming, interfering GPS is only annoying for air traffic. Still I think Kaliningrad should be cut of any services, communications and supplies, making it untenable for Russia. Let's play the same game.
 
Yes, your name isn't Verbose, no need to think all of my posts are about one of yours. If it was, I'd had quoted you :)
(Edit, well, I eventually quoted you, but not the post you were happy to mention :p )

Russian aircrafts are not flying over the non-occupied parts of Ukraine anyway.

I agree that a no fly zone over the territories occupied by Russia, or Russia itself, by NATO, is a whole different matter.

I don't see that happening, much safer to provide more air defenses to Ukraine and AMRAMM for the F-16, they'll do the job on the front, while NATO could take care of the missiles straying in the west of Ukraine.
 
It's not games, it's written in Russian doctrine in plain text. Want to test if it's true, go full speed ahead.
You are so used to just threatening people, you start failing at reasoning? Think about it.
 
Moderator Action: Any new news today?
 
You are so used to just threatening people, you start failing at reasoning? Think about it.
If you forgot, the discussion started with you threatening large scale NATO attack against Russia.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/russia-invades-ukraine-eight.688393/post-16584105
Moderator Action: Any new news today?
Russian Su-27 fell into the water near Crimea, reasons unknown so far. Pilot survived.
Abrams tank was blown up by FPV.
Not much change in the frontlines, slow Russian offensive.
 
Nuclear missiles, more likely. It's a dangerous (and not bright) dream to think Russia would engage "all of Nato" conventionally.

Unlikely unless they're bombing Moscow.

There's various ways of doing it. Eg modern flying tigers.
 
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