pigswill
fly (one day)
Its all yours. Enjoy 
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Screaming Orange Pumpkins - RR16B - It's tax day again ...
- Thread starter r_rolo1
- Start date
vranasm
Deity
come on guys...finish it...I want to lurk the other thread ;-)
timmy827
King
Thanks LK for handing it off with 1 golden age turn left. That made first moves obvious, forget building catapults, bulb philosophy, adopt caste + pacifism. Played until London captured, will finish in the morning.
vanatteveldt
Emperor
I'm probably missing something obvious here, but pacifism???
pigswill
fly (one day)
Interesting indeed. All will be revealed in due course. London has fallen.
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Interesting . The only reason I can think of is that we have enough gold and want to get some great artists culture bombs. That actually makes sense, because there is no point in buildings (OR) and leftover gold if worth nothing at finish...
. The only reason I can think of is that we have enough gold and want to get some great artists culture bombs. That actually makes sense, because there is no point in buildings (OR) and leftover gold if worth nothing at finish...vranasm
Deity
I guess caster for artist border pops, not sure if it is the best idea since we wanted to raze the last english cities and resettle for 5 turns border pops
we could maybe need some whips for emergency settlers to fill out gaps too...
let's see the save first ;-)
we could maybe need some whips for emergency settlers to fill out gaps too...
let's see the save first ;-)
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Well, even if you raze and resettle, having an artist in there means a two turn border pop rather than five...
Settler + Great Artist pairs are an amazing way to fill gaps quickly, I guess
Settler + Great Artist pairs are an amazing way to fill gaps quickly, I guess
vanatteveldt
Emperor
@lymond I didn't know that, that could be very useful in this game!
He presumably decided that enough is enough, or that new catapults will not make it to the front by war's end?
He presumably decided that enough is enough, or that new catapults will not make it to the front by war's end?
timmy827
King
Yep, you guys got it. Try to get a "starving Great Artist" to culture bomb was the biggest single thing to speed win time - picked Nidaros as prime target as it was fairly close to frontline. And plenty of cats + too slow to reach front. Before revolt I whipped any cats/phants with progress already and swapped other cities to HA's (speed over power). Right call on the cats, we clearly didn't need more, this is the deployment as Churchill died:
Looking at tech screen when starting, saw Churchill had Engineering, grr:
York was the biggest bloodbath - Churchill kept scratch whipping units instead of finishing that Castle, though since the city already had 60% defence that may well have been the right move. Lost about 13 units to kill 7.
Thanks for the leading Spy - made to London just in time and helped - London had 2 longbows, a Castle, and some mounted units; the first turn I could attack I had the Spy, about 8 vultures/phants/HA's but no cats. That worked out perfectly, Spy hit on the revolt, sacrifice one unit per longbow and romp over the mounted with WE's. (Aside on the AI - I wish it didn't build so many mounted units. They are perenially nerfed in the AI hands, it always mixes them with 1 movers so they lose the speed advantage. And any AI should be able to correctly choose between longbows, swords, and HA's when it is getting invaded...doubly so for a Protective one)
And in other good news, this city luckily had no longbows (on a hill too - for shame AI, for shame...):
Also assigned scientists and switched research to Drama in 4 turns - although Caste lowers the value of Theatres by allowing new cities to assign artists anyways, still the most useful tech that could actually be reached in time to do anything. Pacifism cost ~50 GPT (the "No Upkeep" does take a lot off the unit cost sting, even for Zergspammers like us but that's fine, had plenty of cushion.
I didn't plan the Great Artist too well - since Nidaros had FP and Artemis, even with all the artists the GA chance was probably only about 50%, and didn't hit jackpot there. Uruk was also in starving artist mode but we won anyways before it even popped, let alone had time to get to the front. And I could have done more with training more settlers to plop down filler cities as a backup.
But if I had, we probably would win before this on the last full turn:
Hmm, perhaps could have won one turn earlier by capping him with just Nottingham left - we were literally 2-3 tiles short at the time of this picture. But seemed more satsifying to cleanse. (Also our taxmen were happier burning some more 3GPT units in the last battle ) If we lose to team A by one turn I'll apologize then.
York and Hastings came out of resistance together on 1300AD, so assign artists for one turn pop and:
For those curious, I went into WB post win. Other continent was Hatty + Charly, kind of cramped. Unfortunately extra constrainted by AI weakness:
Humans would be smart enough to settle a city at the X and pop borders to reach that sizable island by galley (provided one of them is sharp like lymond to see it in the first place.)
Also WB'd in a Caravel, here's where they were on the tech tree:
@LK - yeah another go around with these rules, won without the zerg spam would be interesting. But looking at this tech screen I'm sort of glad we didn't have to take the fight to Hatty - even if she is not a big unit builder, seems like she might well have Destroyers before we got to Galleons under these rules and that would make intercontinental warfare a nightmare...on the other hand, we actually weren't that far from Astro. Could bulb MC with the Merchant I got, creep-research literature for NE followed by compass/optics/machinery, setup a double scientist bulb of Astro by avoiding CS and Theology.
Nice work all. Sorry I wasn't in peak form during the game as a whole. Now, time to go taunt the other team
Looking at tech screen when starting, saw Churchill had Engineering, grr:
York was the biggest bloodbath - Churchill kept scratch whipping units instead of finishing that Castle, though since the city already had 60% defence that may well have been the right move. Lost about 13 units to kill 7.
Thanks for the leading Spy - made to London just in time and helped - London had 2 longbows, a Castle, and some mounted units; the first turn I could attack I had the Spy, about 8 vultures/phants/HA's but no cats. That worked out perfectly, Spy hit on the revolt, sacrifice one unit per longbow and romp over the mounted with WE's. (Aside on the AI - I wish it didn't build so many mounted units. They are perenially nerfed in the AI hands, it always mixes them with 1 movers so they lose the speed advantage. And any AI should be able to correctly choose between longbows, swords, and HA's when it is getting invaded...doubly so for a Protective one)
And in other good news, this city luckily had no longbows (on a hill too - for shame AI, for shame...):
Also assigned scientists and switched research to Drama in 4 turns - although Caste lowers the value of Theatres by allowing new cities to assign artists anyways, still the most useful tech that could actually be reached in time to do anything. Pacifism cost ~50 GPT (the "No Upkeep" does take a lot off the unit cost sting, even for Zergspammers like us
but that's fine, had plenty of cushion.I didn't plan the Great Artist too well - since Nidaros had FP and Artemis, even with all the artists the GA chance was probably only about 50%, and didn't hit jackpot there. Uruk was also in starving artist mode but we won anyways before it even popped, let alone had time to get to the front. And I could have done more with training more settlers to plop down filler cities as a backup.
But if I had, we probably would win before this on the last full turn:
Hmm, perhaps could have won one turn earlier by capping him with just Nottingham left - we were literally 2-3 tiles short at the time of this picture. But seemed more satsifying to cleanse. (Also our taxmen were happier burning some more 3GPT units in the last battle
) If we lose to team A by one turn I'll apologize then. York and Hastings came out of resistance together on 1300AD, so assign artists for one turn pop and:
For those curious, I went into WB post win. Other continent was Hatty + Charly, kind of cramped. Unfortunately extra constrainted by AI weakness:
Humans would be smart enough to settle a city at the X and pop borders to reach that sizable island by galley (provided one of them is sharp like lymond to see it in the first place.)
Also WB'd in a Caravel, here's where they were on the tech tree:
@LK - yeah another go around with these rules, won without the zerg spam would be interesting. But looking at this tech screen I'm sort of glad we didn't have to take the fight to Hatty - even if she is not a big unit builder, seems like she might well have Destroyers before we got to Galleons under these rules and that would make intercontinental warfare a nightmare...on the other hand, we actually weren't that far from Astro. Could bulb MC with the Merchant I got, creep-research literature for NE followed by compass/optics/machinery, setup a double scientist bulb of Astro by avoiding CS and Theology.
Nice work all. Sorry I wasn't in peak form during the game as a whole. Now, time to go taunt the other team
vranasm
Deity
nice timmy...could you post winning save? i would like to check a thing or two
we clearly didn't calculate the tiles correctly if i read the report right, since we didn't need london borders etc.
we clearly didn't calculate the tiles correctly if i read the report right, since we didn't need london borders etc.
timmy827
King
Thoughts on cross team comparison:
They are at 700AD. They seem to have gotten a bit faster start at warring - killed Dutch at 2000BC (1600BC Amsterdam for us) and got a complete kill which we didn't. They captured Nidaros later (225BC vs. ~500BC for us) although they also wiped out the Vikings totally before we did. Their finances are much better than our comparable saves (580AD and 820AD) but it's "all dressed up and nowhere to go" - they can only buy Monarchy, Archery, and Poly right now, like us they built Pyraminds so not a lot of value. I didn't take the time to fully scrutinize their logs but it appears lymond's ideas of leaving crippled AI's around and relying on extortion more than bullying was superior. And their unit count at 700AD looks too small to compete with our finish - they have construction and are building some cats, but they would need 26 in the next few turns to match our 820AD save and have some cities on Markets-due-in-forever...
We appear to have realized Domination-without-Astro possible earlier (~25AD for us vs. 500AD for them) which certainly helps. So I think they are gonna try what we did but probably fall short (of our finish date, they should pull it off though), will be interesting to see it play out. Someone suggested they attack England soon, but they don't know that their Churchill is 5 turns from Feudalism, and also is starting Chichen Itza. (It is really fun to cheat with WB and great spys in doing post-play analysis like this. I will throw in a plug for T-hawk's Adventure while I'm at it - I haven't had time to start it yet but sounds fun even if likely on the easy side )
Also interesting that in their game, the English settling pattern was completely different, not sure what effect that will have.
EDIT: @vranasm - In this save we have just crossed it at 64.14% (takes one more turn to win, we didn't have some of York's first ring at the start of the turn because Nottingham's culture was still there). I see about 36 tiles outside these borders, which sounds familiar
They are at 700AD. They seem to have gotten a bit faster start at warring - killed Dutch at 2000BC (1600BC Amsterdam for us) and got a complete kill which we didn't. They captured Nidaros later (225BC vs. ~500BC for us) although they also wiped out the Vikings totally before we did. Their finances are much better than our comparable saves (580AD and 820AD) but it's "all dressed up and nowhere to go" - they can only buy Monarchy, Archery, and Poly right now, like us they built Pyraminds so not a lot of value. I didn't take the time to fully scrutinize their logs but it appears lymond's ideas of leaving crippled AI's around and relying on extortion more than bullying was superior. And their unit count at 700AD looks too small to compete with our finish - they have construction and are building some cats, but they would need 26 in the next few turns to match our 820AD save and have some cities on Markets-due-in-forever...
We appear to have realized Domination-without-Astro possible earlier (~25AD for us vs. 500AD for them) which certainly helps. So I think they are gonna try what we did but probably fall short (of our finish date, they should pull it off though), will be interesting to see it play out. Someone suggested they attack England soon, but they don't know that their Churchill is 5 turns from Feudalism, and also is starting Chichen Itza. (It is really fun to cheat with WB and great spys in doing post-play analysis like this. I will throw in a plug for T-hawk's Adventure while I'm at it - I haven't had time to start it yet but sounds fun even if likely on the easy side )
Also interesting that in their game, the English settling pattern was completely different, not sure what effect that will have.
EDIT: @vranasm - In this save we have just crossed it at 64.14% (takes one more turn to win, we didn't have some of York's first ring at the start of the turn because Nottingham's culture was still there). I see about 36 tiles outside these borders, which sounds familiar
vranasm
Deity
quickly checked the A team last save, they are at T145 India and churchill before them
they have 4 cats and 18 vultures, so they have 46 turns to beat us
they don't have any cities covering the fur area north and no cities on the island in the west and 19 cities of AI's to go
they have 1 advantage though, AI's don't know feudalism yet and tough to say how close they are
quickly checked our save at close point (820 AD), we had 4 cities more, bigger army, AI's knew feud and we were before taking some extort peace with India.
Willem was still on in the fur area, we had western island settled.
My poor guess is that we probably will beat them. The overall strategy seems the same (didn't check the thread from beginning yet, but the 700 AD save tells similar story as ours)
they have 4 cats and 18 vultures, so they have 46 turns to beat us
they don't have any cities covering the fur area north and no cities on the island in the west and 19 cities of AI's to go
they have 1 advantage though, AI's don't know feudalism yet and tough to say how close they are
quickly checked our save at close point (820 AD), we had 4 cities more, bigger army, AI's knew feud and we were before taking some extort peace with India.
Willem was still on in the fur area, we had western island settled.
My poor guess is that we probably will beat them. The overall strategy seems the same (didn't check the thread from beginning yet, but the 700 AD save tells similar story as ours)
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Good work guys! I'm glad I managed to squeeze in a turnset
I think the tech disadvantage with the other continent would have been smaller without the conquest pace.
I think the tech disadvantage with the other continent would have been smaller without the conquest pace.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Our good friends in the A Team haven't yet discovered HbR for elepults or even discussed it afaik; they're also not running PS which probably helped us in our endless unit spam. On the other hand there's some pretty decent players there so its hard to predict when they will finish.
vranasm
Deity
well 19 cities to go in let's say 45 turns and they have yet to settle the island + the north
and honestly the army is almost nonexistant for such task...
it will be extremely difficult for them, what is even worse they don't seem to make PPP's the way we did even in the critical phase so the coordination will be very very distracting in overall effort.
it's true that couple of last TS's were done without much discussion, but I think that up to the early AD's we really tried to be on the same page everyone.
and making some short turn sets around the T70 was great way how to handle the game.
one of the big differences between this 2 games were
1) we settled ivory, they don't
2) we settled gold and Eridu was super strong, they did 1-city axe rush (thus the date) and their city 3 is stone so really long time without gold commerce and hapiness
3) they didn't put the extort thinking, which honestly didn't worked out the way we wanted, but was helpful (that Willem situation was big debacle if I would use the hindsight)
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
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Great job, Timmy! We should definitely post the final save.
How was Willie a debacle, V? I thought we handled him perfectly. We got several key techs from him at an opportune time.
Honestly, I thought we would finish this game out sooner, but I think my not being used to the variant threw off any date calculations. I thought we might take out Asoka pre-Feud, but unfortunately he got to it during the fight which really delayed us, as well as his unreachable iron.
Good job, team, as a whole.
Not sure if we should post a message in the common thread yet or not. Just something saying we are done. The final save should be posted so Rolo can compare them later.
How was Willie a debacle, V? I thought we handled him perfectly. We got several key techs from him at an opportune time.
Honestly, I thought we would finish this game out sooner, but I think my not being used to the variant threw off any date calculations. I thought we might take out Asoka pre-Feud, but unfortunately he got to it during the fight which really delayed us, as well as his unreachable iron.
Good job, team, as a whole.
Not sure if we should post a message in the common thread yet or not. Just something saying we are done. The final save should be posted so Rolo can compare them later.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,126
hmmm...well, a big problem for them is Asoka now has machinery. He did not even have MC in our game. That can be as bad as Feud. Plus, if he trades it to Church it will be even worse. They really need HBR or lots and lots of cats.
They have done a fine job with their economy and expansion. Probably too much infra building, but then it appears that they decided on Dom much later than we did.
They have done a fine job with their economy and expansion. Probably too much infra building, but then it appears that they decided on Dom much later than we did.
