So what city-states are you missing?

[brianshapiro]

But it was much more than that historically. Rome-as-the-vatican-city had control over large pieces of Italy at certain points.

The Pope extended protection to states in the area which all had some degree of self-government. The Vatican is represented in Civ4 by the Apostolic Palace , I don't know if they ever plan on introducing that in Civ5.

 

[Caeserportugal]

Are they keeping Amsterdam out because they plan to put in the Dutch in later?

Needs Hong Kong, Jerusalem (though that could be an Ottoman City), Dubai, Jakarta, Panama, and Canada (sorry Canadians you will never be a real civ).

Also, thumbs up for Warsaw!

Canada as city-state? I think having instead Vancouver , Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec might be better.

 

[Calouste]

The Vatican today still has less than a thousand residents, its just an administrative center, nothing more.

The Papal states used to be one of the biggest Italian states from the time of Charlemagne to the Italian reunification.

 

[Tusked]

The Pope extended protection to states in the area which all had some degree of self-government. The Vatican is represented in Civ4 by the Apostolic Palace , I don't know if they ever plan on introducing that in Civ5.

It was feudal europe, everything had some degree of self-government. That's not an argument against Vatican City as a city state. There are other arguments that could be made, but that's not one.

 

[brianshapiro]

It was feudal europe, everything had some degree of self-government. That's not an argument against Vatican City as a city state. There are other arguments that could be made, but that's not one.

Its everything together; the fact that the Vatican isn't really a city formed by a group of peoples and just an administrative center, and that the individual states in the Papal states had self-governance. Vatican City represents something more on on a world wonder order with religion, like it was in Civ4.

 

[chaotoroboto]

I think the reason it feels a bit funny is that the influence Vatican city exerted over civs was religious - a mechanic that isn't implemented. Vatican city is a bit of an oddity among city states in that without the religious power of the pope it probably would have been ground into the dust halfway through the dark ages. That said, I have no problem with its inclusion.

Religion is under the purview of culture now - what's missing is the explicit religions from Civ 4. Vatican City would have been a pretty obvious cultural city state. But that's not to say there aren't others that are also awesome. My issue, like I said in the OP, is that the list as presented seems to have been chosen primarily by the interests of people who made the game, not on relevance or diversity or any other criteria other than "Hey Bob, you like history, name some cities you think were cool, you know, in history."

 

[Tusked]

Its everything together; the fact that the Vatican isn't really a city formed by a group of peoples and just an administrative center, and that the individual states in the Papal states had self-governance. Vatican City represents something more on on a world wonder order with religion, like it was in Civ4.

Well, there's no denying that the city of Rome had an effect on the landscape of feudal europe, and that it qualifies as a city state. With that in mind, what should we call it to distinguish it from classical Rome? Feudal Rome? Pope City? That one place with the guy with the hat?

Ooh, that reminds me of a needed city-state: Avignon. Cultural/Hostile. Gotta love antipopes.

 

[Tusked]

Religion is under the purview of culture now - what's missing is the explicit religions from Civ 4. Vatican City would have been a pretty obvious cultural city state. But that's not to say there aren't others that are also awesome. My issue, like I said in the OP, is that the list as presented seems to have been chosen primarily by the interests of people who made the game, not on relevance or diversity or any other criteria other than "Hey Bob, you like history, name some cities you think were cool, you know, in history."

One has to assume that the game designers knew at least somewhat what they were doing. At least they got Venice.

 

[brianshapiro]

Well, there's no denying that the city of Rome had an effect on the landscape of feudal europe, and that it qualifies as a city state. With that in mind, what should we call it to distinguish it from classical Rome? Feudal Rome? Pope City? That one place with the guy with the hat?

Ooh, that reminds me of a needed city-state: Avignon. Cultural/Hostile. Gotta love antipopes.

I don't know, I don't know if its necessary to try to find some way to put it in. They could add San Marino , though

 

[j51]

Oh no, I def think Bogota should be one.

Meh, Bogota should be a later down the list Spanish city, as should Panama, etc. Same goes for Rio and Bahia with Portugal. As for the Mayan cities, their dis-inclusion almost guarantees they'll be DLC at some point.

Tlaxcala - Should be Military. Allied with the Spanish to defeat the Aztecs. Were never conquered by the Aztecs themselves, but were "farmed" for sacrificial victims.
Teotihuacan - THE Ur-Central Mexican Valley state
Monte Alban - this feature was made for them
Cohokia - dito
Moche and Tiwanaku - pre-Inca, and important ceremonial Andean centers
Benin - c'mon - show some love! - I've always wanted them in some form in a Civ game ever since I saw a traveling exhibition of their art as a child.
Oyo and Ife - the two most important Yoruba city states: former Militaristic, later cultural.
Kongo would be a great central African fit.
Great Zimbabwe - the major historical Southern African center - give Capetown to the Dutch!
Kilwa was the major Swahili coastal city.
Zanzibar - no brainer. Where are they?
Napata or Meroë - although I hope the Nubians get added later as a civ finally.
Axum - If they're gonna be dicks and not add the Ethiopians within a year, or at all!!!
Kano - was the most important Hausa city state, and the Songhai even conquered and held it for a brief period.
Byblos - Why only Sidon and Tyre?
Palmyra - even temporarily held a quarter of the Roman empire.
Angkor - with Siam in, I doubt that the Khmer will be added as a whole civ.
Pagan - early Burmese city-synonymous kingdom
Malacca - Seriously were are these guys? They should be the Malayan one, not Kuala Lumpur!
Majapahit - if they're not gonna be a civ - need something Javanese (Bantam and yes, Jakarta, would work as well)
Ghent, Antwerp, Zurich, Danzig, etc. - to replace the modern Euro-Nation capitals.
Krakow - Instead of Warsaw. It was actualy a city-state in the 19th cent. for a while.
Kiev - after the collapse of Kievan Rus, functioned as a semi-city state paying tribute to various groups.

 

[chaotoroboto]

Canada as city-state? I think having instead Vancouver , Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec might be better.

I think, semantically, that "Client State" or "Minor Powers" might have been a better appellation. Using my incredible psychic powers, I'd say that "City State" was chosen to convey the whole "only one city" bit, and to avoid offending people. The downside is that instead of Brazil we have Rio and instead of Finland we have Helsinki.

Quebec (or Montreal) certainly deserves to be one, as does one of the less important (read: less French Canadian) Canadian cities.

 

[Tusked]

I don't know, I don't know if its necessary to try to find some way to put it in. They could add San Marino , though

I don't particularly care either way, I'm just arguing that it qualifies.

 

[j51]

Canada as city-state? I think having instead Vancouver , Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec might be better.

Quebec, Montreal as late-list French cities.
Halifax, Toronto, Van as English

 

[j51]

I think, semantically, that "Client State" or "Minor Powers" might have been a better appellation. Using my incredible psychic powers, I'd say that "City State" was chosen to convey the whole "only one city" bit, and to avoid offending people. The downside is that instead of Brazil we have Rio and instead of Finland we have Helsinki.

Agreed! They or we should actually implement this change. So they can have separate state and city names.

 

[ilikepies]

Canada as city-state? I think having instead Vancouver , Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec might be better.

That would get the Free Quebec people's hopes up. Adding Tibet was enough.

I would love a Papal States city-state, but it wouldn't work with Rome.

 

[brianshapiro]

I don't particularly care either way, I'm just arguing that it qualifies.

Under some rubric it would qualify, I just don't think its worth it given the problems. If I were a dev I'd avoid putting it in.

 

[chaotoroboto]

I think Avignon will probably be a French city.

That's a hell of a list j51. You've obviously been thinking about this too.

I don't think you can argue that the list isn't arbitrary when a third of it is Northern Europe and a fourth is Scandinavian. Don't get me wrong, I love the Northern European ones and I agree with every single one of them - I just don't see why there's not hundreds more that aren't northern Europe. There's no good reason to exclude cities/minor powers from the list.

 

[j51]

I think Avignon will probably be a French city.

That's a hell of a list j51. You've obviously been thinking about this too.

I don't think you can argue that the list isn't arbitrary when a third of it is Northern Europe and a fourth is Scandinavian. Don't get me wrong, I love the Northern European ones and I agree with every single one of them - I just don't see why there's not hundreds more that aren't northern Europe. There's no good reason to exclude cities/minor powers from the list.

Thanks! I'd be down with all the Northern European ones and even a few more if a way to separate the names of the cities and the states was possible. I'm just kinda a stickler about these semantic things.

Also, do all these Scandinavian capitals mean the Vikings aren't coming our way?!

 

[chaotoroboto]

Also, do all these Scandinavian capitals mean the Vikings aren't coming our way?!

I'd be okay with that. I'm sure no one else would though. If the naval combat perks up like it looks like it will, then maybe I'll change my mind.

 

[Kimuyama]

Thanks! I'd be down with all the Northern European ones and even a few more if a way to separate the names of the cities and the states was possible. I'm just kinda a stickler about these semantic things.

Also, do all these Scandinavian capitals mean the Vikings aren't coming our way?!

No worries! The only one of the scandinavian cities that existed back then was Oslo, so there might still be room for the vikings!