snipperrabbit!!
Deity
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They will not sell Kongo well unless there is Portugal too.
Sunday's PAX talk (with summary of the info)
- Thread starter anandus
- Start date
I am against Sweden-Finland combo Civ. I rather would like to get them both as independent Civilizations (as they should be represented). But you just can't have them all and three (Denmark, Finland and Sweden) Scandinavian Civs would be overkill, so I'd grimly accept the Sweden/Finland representation (though I would be very happy about it in notime) IF the uniques would heavily have Finnish representation. Like Hakkapelitta UU, Sauna UB or Tar Kiln UI.
"In Sweden, there are 1100 known hill forts with a strong concentration on the northern west coast and in eastern Svealand. Only in Södermanland, there are 300, in Uppland 150, Östergötland 130 and Bohuslän and Gotland 90-100 each."
Hakkapeliitta (Cavalry replacement) and Borg (Castle) UI would be very fun combo. Borg would be Fort replacement and could be build outside friendly territory. It would spread religion 10 hex radius (like city) and would give 'free' city walls if city is placed in tile that has Borg in it. Swedes build about 100 Hill Forts (Borgs) in Finland during Swedish occupation and converted Finns from Finnish Paganism (Nature/Kalevala belief) to Christianity. After several Crusades (with help of German Priest) Finland was essentialy converted but the whole process took Centuries (and cost many lives in both sides). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Swedish_Crusades
"National-romanticist Swedish and Finnish historians in the nineteenth century gave the name "crusades" to military expeditions which resulted in the Swedish conquest of Finland in the Middle Ages."
I think they should have Finland somehow build the Mannerheim line in CiV, man did they give those Soviets a drubbing in WW2. Sure they made peace and lost 10% of their territory, but they put up a noble determined fight.
"The Soviet forces had more than three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks."
Soviet losses in the Winter War 1939
126,875 dead or missing
188,671 wounded, injured or burned
5,572 captured
3,543 tanks
261–515 aircraft
323,000 total casualties in about four and a half months of fighting.
I agree, and this would make an excellent DLC pack. Along with a scenario about Portugal and the exploration of Africa, with a theme to find a trade route to India.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The problem is the game doesn't just stick two civs randomly together. The Norwegian Ski Infantry existed at the time Denmark ruled Norway. The Finnish units that fought the Soviets obviously do not belong in a Swedish civ.
Why not if it represents both countries? Why should everything be all Swedish? Although what would a civ be called that represented both Finland and Sweden? Interesting question there.
I say UA Mannerheim line (Finland)
Cannon UU representing Gustavus Adolphus "The Father of Mobile Artillery". (Sweden)
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
If the Civilization is Sweden, it represents Sweden. It can include Finnish territory and the Finnish contributions, but it doesn't include both Civs.
It's like having France and giving them Panzers and then claiming it represents both France and Germany. France represents France. Sweden represents Sweden, but can also represent the Swedish Empire that included Finland where Finnish soldiers fought for Gustavus Adolphus. What it can't represent is an unrelated point in history where Sweden and Finland have no connections besides history.
It's like having France and giving them Panzers and then claiming it represents both France and Germany. France represents France. Sweden represents Sweden, but can also represent the Swedish Empire that included Finland where Finnish soldiers fought for Gustavus Adolphus. What it can't represent is an unrelated point in history where Sweden and Finland have no connections besides history.
We have a guy from Finland on here, why can't he have his country represented in some way? Being part of Sweden or not. Perhaps your right, but they should be able to find things that represent both countries, so everyone is happy, besides its fair. BTW France having Panzers was a bad example sorry!
bonafide11
Worker
We have a guy from Finland on here, why can't he have his country represented in some way? Being part of Sweden or not. Perhaps your right, but they should be able to find things that represent both countries, so everyone is happy, besides its fair. BTW France having Panzers was a bad example sorry!
What are you talking about? If Firaxis selects Sweden as a civ, why would they represent Finland? That makes no sense. And France having Panzers was a perfect example because that's the logic you're using here. The point of adding a civilization is for that civilization to represent itself, and not for that civilization to contain a mishmash of various civilizations just so other people can feel it represents them in some way as well. I honestly can't figure out your logic here.
What are you talking about? If Firaxis selects Sweden as a civ, why would they represent Finland? That makes no sense. And France having Panzers was a perfect example because that's the logic you're using here. The point of adding a civilization is for that civilization to represent itself, and not for that civilization to contain a mishmash of various civilizations just so other people can feel it represents them in some way as well. I honestly can't figure out your logic here.
Read former posts please before replying. Then you would understand what we are talking about. Another poster was saying they may represent Sweden and Finland together. Thats why I was trying to find a way to meld them together. Its just speculative idea do not get worked up. GEEZ!
bonafide11
Worker
I did read former posts before replying, and that doesn't help your case at all. I just didn't bother quoting every irrational post of yours.
Why would it represent both countries? That still makes absolutely no sense. The point of a civilization is to represent that civilization and not be a hodgepodge of various civilizations. Why not just make a civilization that combines Japan and China, or U.S. and Britain? Again, your logic makes no sense. You have a brain, use it.
Moderator Action: You have one too, and yours should tell you to behave civil here. 
Apparently you did not because you missed the point. The idea was based on SPECULATION!
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
We have a guy from Finland on here, why can't he have his country represented in some way? Being part of Sweden or not. Perhaps your right, but they should be able to find things that represent both countries, so everyone is happy, besides its fair. BTW France having Panzers was a bad example sorry!
Why?
1. Under Charlemagne, France occupied the territory that is Germany, which contained German peoples.
2. Even though they never occupied the territory during WWII, the Panzer comes from that German territory.
3. You can represent Germany with the Panzer as part of France.
1. Under Gustavus Adolphus, Sweden occupied the territory that is Finland, which contained Finnish peoples.
2. Even though they did not occupy the territory during WWII, (insert Finnish unit) comes from that Finnish territory.
3. You can represent Finland this way as part of Sweden.
I think combining them this way is ultimately unsatisfying. It downplays their individual accomplishments by nonsensically linking them when they weren't linked. Denmark-Norway uses stuff from both when they were connected.
Why would it represent both countries? That still makes absolutely no sense. The point of a civilization is to represent that civilization and not be a hodgepodge of various civilizations. Why not just make a civilization that combines Japan and China, or U.S. and Britain? Again, your logic makes no sense. You have a brain, use it.
Because they cannot create Denmark, Sweden, and Finland it would be OVERKILL! OKAY NOW DO YOU FINALLY GET IT???? Sweden and Finland would have to be represented together, if you wanted Finland to be represented. It however does not have to be included. I hope this clears things up.
- Joined
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The last remaining civ does not absolutely have to come from the scenarios. Why not just endorse Finland instead of Sweden?
The panzer did not come from just one area of Germany, it was actually manufactured and produced in several places. 3. You can represent Germany with the Panzer as part of France.
I feel your reaching a bit there.1. Under Gustavus Adolphus, Sweden occupied the territory that is Finland, which contained Finnish peoples.
2. Even though they did not occupy the territory during WWII, (insert Finnish unit) comes from that Finnish territory.
3. You can represent Finland this way as part of Sweden.
I think combining them this way is ultimately unsatisfying. It downplays their individual accomplishments by nonsensically linking them when they weren't linked.
On this that does sound sensible. But we sometimes speculate things on here you know that.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Because they cannot create Denmark, Sweden, and Finland it would be OVERKILL! OKAY NOW DO YOU FINALLY GET IT???? Sweden and Finland would have to be represented together, if you wanted Finland to be represented. It however does not have to be included. I hope this clears things up.
But that's not an argument for including them together. The same argument could be said for Portugal, right? In fact, it could be used for half of Europe. I think we have to accept that some civs have to be done through mods and not by Firaxis. Shoehorning them into other civs when it doesn't make sense is nonsensical.
ETA: If you're unhappy with Panzer, we can use Landsknecht.
How do you feel about mixing them together?
Wow i got peepered for suggesting such a god awful idea!
JFD
Kathigitarkh
I don't believe Sweden and Finland would be mixed together to suggest that Sweden did not represent itself as a civ, or that the focus of the civ was not Sweden. Sweden would just borrow some Finnish attribute akin to Denmark-Norway. Granted Denmark-Norway was a real political union, as opposed to Sweden-Finland, Finnish cavalry being utilised by the Swedish - during the time when Sweden held sovereignty over the area of Finland - is iconic enough that it would be plauseable to include them. This would likely be the closest Finland would get to being represented in civ, beyond Helsinki as a City-State, because Finland was for much of its history a dominion of either Sweden or Russia, and although its achievements against the Soviets are notable, was not a regional superpower in of itself - so if Sweden were not included, it is very unlikely Finland would be. And of course, if we're talking the fit of Sweden over Finland in this expansion, Sweden takes the cake. That doesn't mean Sweden would have any distinctly Finnish attributes - but its the best those who want Finland in the game can hope for.
Personally, I feel that Sweden already has two iconic possibilities for unique units: the Leather Cannon and the Carolean. However, from what we're heard, a lot of the new civs seem to be taking two unique units over one and a building/improvement, so I would rather that Sweden only have the one - which would be dependant, of course, on whether their leader is Gustav Adolphus or Karl.
Personally, I feel that Sweden already has two iconic possibilities for unique units: the Leather Cannon and the Carolean. However, from what we're heard, a lot of the new civs seem to be taking two unique units over one and a building/improvement, so I would rather that Sweden only have the one - which would be dependant, of course, on whether their leader is Gustav Adolphus or Karl.
I love them both. But no Landsknecht would not work either.
What is a Landsknecht?
"Landsknecht" means literally "servant of the country." The Landsknechts were German mercenary soldiers who thrived from approximately 1487 - 1556 and were originally created as a force to support the Holy Roman Empire-building predilections of Maximilian I, heir to the Holy Roman Empire. They soon began hiring themselves out to the highest bidder and thus became formal mercenaries. Recruited primarily from the poor in southern Germany, they became known for their outlandish dress and effective fighting tactics. In their heyday, they were the finest fighting force in Europe.
Fine sorry for thinking I can slap Finland and Sweden together like a sandwich.
bonafide11
Worker
Because they cannot create Denmark, Sweden, and Finland it would be OVERKILL! OKAY NOW DO YOU FINALLY GET IT???? Sweden and Finland would have to be represented together, if you wanted Finland to be represented. It however does not have to be included. I hope this clears things up.
Of course it would be overkill to represent them together, and I never suggested that. But why in the hell would they represent them together in the first place? That's completely irrational and illogical. Okay, now do you finally get it?
I hope this clears things up. 
