flamingzaroc121
Emperor
i cant believe 5 people voted for Fin, 4 for Ind, and 3 for Phi those are my three favorite
weakest triats
- Thread starter kristopherb
- Start date
famousanus024
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4
flamingzaroc121 said:
I know, those are mine too! I'm surprised protective didn't sweep the vote, or not be in first, I think its horrendous...I usually play on easier difficulties and I don't find myself in a lot of wars (and when I do find myself fighting the AI never gets to my cities anyway.) So for me, it's totally useless. I don't think the production bonuses help either, I almost never get to build castles because frankly theyre too quickly obsolete and they don't do enough to be a high priority, and I never build walls unless I have nothing better to build.
How's that one saying go? Playing not to lose is like playing to lose? How ever it goes, I think it applies to protective.
Ind. is a nice trait to have, not just for builders but for financial types on higher difficulties when the AI grabs most wonders super fast.
When you lose a wonder, all those hammers are converted into gold at a 1:1 ratio, the best in the game. Industrious civs build wonders twice as fast, thereby further improving that ratio. Other things like forge, org. religion, buerocracy, etc, and you can get upwards of three gold per hammer.
Though I haven't played many games on Warlords yet I had to vote for Charismatic. I prioritize early Monarchy, so I rarely have any happiness problems. I actually like expansive - as has been said, the double speed granaries and harbors are nice, and cities in locations with a lot of unhealthiness (lots of flood plains, jungles, or simply little access to health resources) can actually grow a bit without having to invest in aquaducts or the like.
When you lose a wonder, all those hammers are converted into gold at a 1:1 ratio, the best in the game. Industrious civs build wonders twice as fast, thereby further improving that ratio. Other things like forge, org. religion, buerocracy, etc, and you can get upwards of three gold per hammer.
Though I haven't played many games on Warlords yet I had to vote for Charismatic. I prioritize early Monarchy, so I rarely have any happiness problems. I actually like expansive - as has been said, the double speed granaries and harbors are nice, and cities in locations with a lot of unhealthiness (lots of flood plains, jungles, or simply little access to health resources) can actually grow a bit without having to invest in aquaducts or the like.
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
Yeah, but unhealthiness does kill Specialist-run cities and economies. I think that's another nod for Expansive.
Yes, I was one of those who voted for Industrious. I don't know, I find myself completely able to live without it. But then again, I can play any leader in my difficulty level and win... now to move up to the next...
What's the next letter after M? Oh yeah, it's E.
Yes, I was one of those who voted for Industrious. I don't know, I find myself completely able to live without it. But then again, I can play any leader in my difficulty level and win... now to move up to the next...
What's the next letter after M? Oh yeah, it's E.
I think Industrious is fairly well-balanced. Not super-strong, but exploitable under the right strategies. That's how traits should be. Now, with that being said, I stand by saying that Creative is the weakest of the bunch. A lot of arguments have been posted that I won't repeat, but I think its limited in usefulness. I'll try playing a creative leader this weekend and see if my opinion changes.
@Rast: I can't believe I just read that. Charismatic's main bonus is the reduced XP for unit promotions, which makes it easier to obtain high level promotions. I don't have the exact numbers, but it's a great trait, especially if you have a smaller army than the AI due to difficulty level and need any edge you can get--I'll take Charismatic over Aggressive any day. The happiness bonus is just icing on the cake.
@Rast: I can't believe I just read that. Charismatic's main bonus is the reduced XP for unit promotions, which makes it easier to obtain high level promotions. I don't have the exact numbers, but it's a great trait, especially if you have a smaller army than the AI due to difficulty level and need any edge you can get--I'll take Charismatic over Aggressive any day. The happiness bonus is just icing on the cake.
kristopherb
Protective/Charismatic
Charismatic is cool faster Exp points its godsend in most scenarios
gettingfat
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,417
Expansive is good at higher level. +3 health allows you to chop some forests getting floodplain start, which is huge. Cheap granary is useful as well.
Protective can be useful, just not as good as aggressive. Cheap walls and castles are often meaningless.
I'll vote for imperialistic. It's supposed to be much more powerful, but I think the GG points 100% bonus was scrxwed up. If it's fixed I'll reconsider.
Protective can be useful, just not as good as aggressive. Cheap walls and castles are often meaningless.
I'll vote for imperialistic. It's supposed to be much more powerful, but I think the GG points 100% bonus was scrxwed up. If it's fixed I'll reconsider.
The Navy Seal
Emperor
Imperialistic is the worst.
I think all the traits have their uses in certain situations but Imperialistic is probably the weakest as I tend to play fairly peaceful games.
I'm also probably biased as my favourite two leaders for domination wins were Catherine and Julius in vanilla as their traits were great (creative/financial and expansive/organised) and they've both had one of the traits replaced by imperialistic.
Also, can't believe you picked philosophical turquoiseninja, with financial this is the greatest trait to have. Great People are what can make or break games at the higher level.
I'm also probably biased as my favourite two leaders for domination wins were Catherine and Julius in vanilla as their traits were great (creative/financial and expansive/organised) and they've both had one of the traits replaced by imperialistic.
Also, can't believe you picked philosophical turquoiseninja, with financial this is the greatest trait to have. Great People are what can make or break games at the higher level.
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
Imperalistic 
Faster settlers isn't worth a whole trait. If it reduced maintenance or something that better suited the word I'd be much happier.
Faster settlers isn't worth a whole trait. If it reduced maintenance or something that better suited the word I'd be much happier.The Navy Seal
Emperor
Man I'm starting an epidemic!
I would voite for financial, if there were not protective option.
Financial even good on warter maps.
Protective is bad is SP and MP.
Well, it start to get value with some UU and gunpower units, but befor that it is has no economic benefits and no offence benefits.
What point to have cities if all improvements gone in MP? Or are one going to attack with stack of drill longbows?
Financial even good on warter maps.
Protective is bad is SP and MP.
Well, it start to get value with some UU and gunpower units, but befor that it is has no economic benefits and no offence benefits.
What point to have cities if all improvements gone in MP? Or are one going to attack with stack of drill longbows?
ac196nataku
Noob
I'd just like to say, any trait is better than none... But when you compare them to OTHER traits... You gotta feel gypsied sometimes.
I'll just voice my opinion about the public's opinion of the 5 worst traits...
IMPERIALISTIC! NO DOUBT! GG bonus situational at best laughable at worst, settler bonus useless -- most settlers/workers are made with food surplus, not shields. Plus how many settlers do you make? I average 2-5 a game. Maybe this is useful on marathon/huge... (If only my comp could survive more than 9 AIs...)
Protective is MUCH better than everyone thinks it is. Sure walls and castles are pretty useless... (improve them in BtS please!) but both of the promotions given are really powerful. Drill 4 at 10XP? CG3 at 5? I don't even play MP, but I'd assume it's even more useful there.
Expansive is decent. Health is not as easy as Happiness in m experience (HR civic anyone?) but its also not as important. Worker bonus is more useful than Settler IMO, I build more and now I don't feel so bad using a production city to do so.
Creative is very useful IMO, especially if you are playing on slower difficulties (marathon monument 90 turns?!). It allows you to skip the Mysticism branch altogether! You can plan on resources in the second ring being in your reach much quicker. Also helps early game culture wars against AI when they build a stupid border town right on top of you. Admittedly, the trait starts to die late game, but the building bonuses are still nice (library, theatre, one other...).
Spiritual?! Wow. This is like my second favorite trait! Maybe I change civics too much? Plus I like the free diplo bonus from AI for adopting their fav civic for 5 turns... Cheap temples nifty too.
And as a bonus, I noticed my second least favorite trait is only the public's sixth...
Organized. I just keep trying to like this trait but I don't. Maybe it's because I don't play Emperor/Immortal/Deity/whatever. The only thing I really get out of it is cheap courthouses (which seem to always take forever where you need them the most). Lighthouses are usually easy enough for me to build them normally, but I won't say no to a bonus.
I'll just voice my opinion about the public's opinion of the 5 worst traits...
IMPERIALISTIC! NO DOUBT! GG bonus situational at best laughable at worst, settler bonus useless -- most settlers/workers are made with food surplus, not shields. Plus how many settlers do you make? I average 2-5 a game. Maybe this is useful on marathon/huge... (If only my comp could survive more than 9 AIs...)
Protective is MUCH better than everyone thinks it is. Sure walls and castles are pretty useless... (improve them in BtS please!) but both of the promotions given are really powerful. Drill 4 at 10XP? CG3 at 5? I don't even play MP, but I'd assume it's even more useful there.
Expansive is decent. Health is not as easy as Happiness in m experience (HR civic anyone?) but its also not as important. Worker bonus is more useful than Settler IMO, I build more and now I don't feel so bad using a production city to do so.
Creative is very useful IMO, especially if you are playing on slower difficulties (marathon monument 90 turns?!). It allows you to skip the Mysticism branch altogether! You can plan on resources in the second ring being in your reach much quicker. Also helps early game culture wars against AI when they build a stupid border town right on top of you. Admittedly, the trait starts to die late game, but the building bonuses are still nice (library, theatre, one other...).
Spiritual?! Wow. This is like my second favorite trait! Maybe I change civics too much? Plus I like the free diplo bonus from AI for adopting their fav civic for 5 turns... Cheap temples nifty too.
And as a bonus, I noticed my second least favorite trait is only the public's sixth...
Organized. I just keep trying to like this trait but I don't. Maybe it's because I don't play Emperor/Immortal/Deity/whatever. The only thing I really get out of it is cheap courthouses (which seem to always take forever where you need them the most). Lighthouses are usually easy enough for me to build them normally, but I won't say no to a bonus.
vale
Mathematician
I voted Industrious. It just does not fit in at all with my play style. I think people are vastly underestimating Creative. It is not just the +2 culture although that is very powerful by itself (almost complete freedom in placement of new cities, which is not true about any other method for getting border pops). Double production libraries is one of the most useful ones because getting those up in new cities is almost always one of the earliest priorities.
gettingfat
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,417
Wow, can't believe so many people voted expansive and creative, and more surprising to see there are even people voting financial and philosophical.
Get a jungle or floodplain/no forest start, and you'll pray to have the expansive trait. Cheap granary/lighthouse is exploitable. Early granary/lighthouse building makes whipping a much more cost-effective strategy. Cheap workers are more useful than settlers. Expansive allows you to chop as much as you want without concern for the green faces. So there is a synergy here: get your worker fast to chop whatever you want. Expansive may not be a great trait but a highly useful trait.
In contrast to what some people believe, the real power of creative reveals itself only if you play aggressive. In early game it allows you to get to your strategy resource quick for early axemen rush or chariot rush (especially the dangerous Egyptian Hatsy war chariot rush); in later game you conquer a populated city, then immediately whip for the cheap library/theatre. The cultural border will immediately expand, the people become happy, and you have the scientist/artist specialist slots to immediately chip in your research. That's why I find Augustus better than Julius for conquest.
Financial and philosophical are two staple traits that you build your game strategy on. I can't believe they are bad traits.
Imperialistic is a poorly designed trait, hands down.
Get a jungle or floodplain/no forest start, and you'll pray to have the expansive trait. Cheap granary/lighthouse is exploitable. Early granary/lighthouse building makes whipping a much more cost-effective strategy. Cheap workers are more useful than settlers. Expansive allows you to chop as much as you want without concern for the green faces. So there is a synergy here: get your worker fast to chop whatever you want. Expansive may not be a great trait but a highly useful trait.
In contrast to what some people believe, the real power of creative reveals itself only if you play aggressive. In early game it allows you to get to your strategy resource quick for early axemen rush or chariot rush (especially the dangerous Egyptian Hatsy war chariot rush); in later game you conquer a populated city, then immediately whip for the cheap library/theatre. The cultural border will immediately expand, the people become happy, and you have the scientist/artist specialist slots to immediately chip in your research. That's why I find Augustus better than Julius for conquest.
Financial and philosophical are two staple traits that you build your game strategy on. I can't believe they are bad traits.
Imperialistic is a poorly designed trait, hands down.
Papa Smurf
Chieftain
completly agree
expanisive= double speed of workers + health bonus
not bad
disagree with creative. I dont thinks its as important as you say. Once the city culture expands the first time thats all that rly matters.
financial > philosophical. I agree philo is ok not one of the great traits thou.
build settlers faster = its ok
Story time: Im Cryus on a huge 18 civ game on monarch, i forget any other important info. Get horses; immortal rush. 2 great generals. They become specailists +4exp +3 barracks +i forget for stables. Horse archers were getting 3 upgrades +1exp would result in another upgrade. Let me remind u that this is without vass. and theoacracy.
u under estimate it
SoxSexSax
Chieftain
Little surprised to see creative as one of the bottom 4...anyone remember when Catherine was widely seen as the strongest leader with creative/financial? On a small map where land is at a premium, creative is VERY useful IMO.
I voted for protective. I just never struggle enough militarily to need further help.
I voted for protective. I just never struggle enough militarily to need further help.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
for me it depends what type of game i'm playing, so i didn't officially vote.
one example ... lots of people don't like expansive. for OCC games, it's one of my absolute favorites! happiness is literally a non-issue once i get drama and build globe theatre. health is a huge issue for my city, and even if i kill everybody out there i will never be able to capture their resources for myself. so i need all the help i can get!
one example ... lots of people don't like expansive. for OCC games, it's one of my absolute favorites! happiness is literally a non-issue once i get drama and build globe theatre. health is a huge issue for my city, and even if i kill everybody out there i will never be able to capture their resources for myself. so i need all the help i can get!
vale
Mathematician
Not true, see my article on Hammer Overflow for examples that put that ratio to shame.
gettingfat
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,417
If you play an aggressive leader, you'll still get 1 GG, but your melee units start with combat I. A free promotion is better than 2 exp points. And if I am not wrong, the 100% GG production is messed up, so it's not truly 100%. Their production rate also plateau quite quickly. I'll pick aggressive any time. (that's why aggressive/charismatic does not exist so far, a bit too powerful)
Similar threads
