Is every early war victory pyrrhic?

D

DagHammarskjol

Warlord
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
135
Inevitably, when I've got two cities and am working on a third, some jerk AI declares war on me and sweeps in with seven or eight units, taking my second city. I can generally win it back by rallying the units I have and pumping out units from my capital, but once I've got the city back--and once I've taken one or two of the AI's cities from him since I usually have to do this to end the war--I'm _way_ behind on infrastructure and, hence, on tech, economy, culture etc.

At this point I despair and quit. The one time I continued, I was indeed far behind for the entire game.

Does an early war have to be a hopeless setback? Or are there ways to catch up afterward?

Playing G&K prince...
 
Then what are you building? :p If the second city is being taken all the time, try settling it in more favorable terrain like on a Hill and build Walls. After the patch the AI has been more spam-happy on all difficulties so you need to have a few archers early in the game to not get smacked around.
 
To clarify--I don't start out behind. I start out even at least in terms of number of cities and units. But once I get involved in an early war, simply doing what it takes to win the war, itself, puts me behind the six remainibg civs, and I don't know how to catch up. I've been spending so much production on military that I don't have any infrastructure to show for it. Meanwhile the other civs are zooming ahead in tech, culture etc. AFAICT, this is due directly to my having been involved in an early war. But I can't avoid the early wars--the AI forces me into them. So I don't know what to do.
 
If I preemptively do what it takes to build a bigger military than anyone around, it seems that will have the same effect--all the productivity spent on military, so that those civs who didn't go that route get to use it on infrastructure, which is what you need to win in the end. So I'm screwed, it seems to me, even if I do what I need to do to avoid the danger of the early war in the first place!
 
^ Good suggestion.

Agree that on Prince you should not be suffering from an early rush, and certainly shouldn't be losing your second city, so something is amiss. It's probably readily addressed, so, when you post the save, please also summarize your research order and build order in your capital and any early lux or resource sales you did. Tweaking some or all of that may help a great deal.
 
You don't have to be biggest, just not a pushover. I find that 3-4 archers ready to be upgraded to CB is enough to repel any early AI invasion. Have them ready. While fighting build two more and that's enough to go on offensive.

Make sure your 2nd city is very defensible and pick your ground to defend. Don't lose any units, use your cities as meatshields if you have to, kill all AI units and counterattack. You will see that this early war has not only not crimped you but propelled you to later world domination.

If you still have trouble post a save and a screenshot or two here and we will see what's going on. GL :)
 
The Pilgrim said:
On prince AI can't pose such a threat that forces you to abandon whatever you're doing and pump out units all the time. If that happens, meaning you are too slow on everything right from the start. On research, expansion and culture. Post a game you have difficulties with and together we'll figure out what went wrong.
Click to expand...

I'll do that when I get a chance, but meanwhile, I can describe what I do. It varies a little depending on the situation, but generally I aim for a scout first, then a warrior*, then a worker**, then I used to go straight for settler here but barbarians have convinced me to do another warrior instead, then a settler. I use the worker to improve resource spots, and to build a road to my next settlement spot. I use a warrior to stake out the settlement spot beforehand. Once the settler comes out, I send it over. Then, a few turns later, boom, seven or eight enemy units hit me. I used to have no military at this point, having tried to build some infra after the second city. I now typically have barely enough military to take back whichever city gets attacked, but only because I did not build any infra after the second city, but instead built only military. (I will have finished archery at just about the same time I get that second city, so now I have archers in the mix. My prior research will have depended on the start situation, but it usually consists in some ordering of the following: Pottery, Sailing, Calendar, Mining, Masonry, Animal Husbandry, Trapping, Archery, the wheel. I don't necessarily do all those, it depends on the resources that are around. One thing is I've been doing wheel and archery last, but maybe I should do them first?)


*If I don't build the warrior after the scout, barbarians kill me.

**If I don't build the worker before the settler, then happiness is a problem.
 
Make sure to prioritize archers for defense over other units. A handful(3-4) of archers combined with the city's attack will make short work of anything the AI will throw at you in the early game on Prince and that consumes very little production which means you can just keep doing what you were doing. If you take down the enemy Catapult(s), the rush will basically collapse unless you placed the city in a really bad location because they won't deal enough damage to take the city. Also, if they only have 1-2 melee units, simply kill them and they will not be able to take the city because only melee units can capture it no matter how much damage it takes. You can apply this to basically every difficulty, just on Immortal/Deity you'll often need to throw some Walls into the mix.

DagHammarskjol said:
For some reason I did not think terrain defense bonuses apply to cities. That could make a difference.
Click to expand...

Yeah, settling on a hill is a very good idea unless the city is in a place where it can't be reached without going through other cities first. The only thing you lose is the Windmill which is basically a consolation prize for not settling on a hill. :p
 
Well I was going to try to go ahead and post a save real quick, but I don't see any way to attach anything to a post. What am I missing? Or do we just use mediafile or something similar?
 
DagHammarskjol said:
Well I was going to try to go ahead and post a save real quick, but I don't see any way to attach anything to a post. What am I missing? Or do we just use mediafile or something similar?
Click to expand...

Below the post there's an "Additional Options" thing with an "Manage Attachments" button. :)
 
Okay, I figured out the attachment function. Attached is the last autosave from the gave I gave up on this morning. I don't know exactly how many turns back the autosave is from the end, but what happened at the end was, Persia did finally offer peace on equal terms (rather than demanding my New York City from me) but immediately thereupon Japan DoW'ed me. At this point I threw up my hands and quit.

Honestly, I basically just don't like war. I like the planning of tech and infrastructure and the optimization of budgets and things like that. But war's in the game so I gotta deal. ;)
 

Attachments

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DagHammarskjol said:
I'll do that when I get a chance, but meanwhile, I can describe what I do. It varies a little depending on the situation, but generally I aim for a scout first, then a warrior*, then a worker**, then I used to go straight for settler here but barbarians have convinced me to do another warrior instead, then a settler. I use the worker to improve resource spots, and to build a road to my next settlement spot. I use a warrior to stake out the settlement spot beforehand. Once the settler comes out, I send it over. Then, a few turns later, boom, seven or eight enemy units hit me. I used to have no military at this point, having tried to build some infra after the second city. I now typically have barely enough military to take back whichever city gets attacked, but only because I did not build any infra after the second city, but instead built only military. (I will have finished archery at just about the same time I get that second city, so now I have archers in the mix. My prior research will have depended on the start situation, but it usually consists in some ordering of the following: Pottery, Sailing, Calendar, Mining, Masonry, Animal Husbandry, Trapping, Archery, the wheel. I don't necessarily do all those, it depends on the resources that are around. One thing is I've been doing wheel and archery last, but maybe I should do them first?)


*If I don't build the warrior after the scout, barbarians kill me.

**If I don't build the worker before the settler, then happiness is a problem.
Click to expand...
Monument should be in the mix as one of the first builds. Or at least take Tradition and Legalism to get a free one.
With starting warrior you don't need another one to defend from the barbs that early. Do you play with raging barbs on? If not, you have ~30-40 turns (assuming standard speed) to wander around until they become a problem that needs attention. Meaning they jeopardize your worker. Let you starting warrior to scout around in circle and bring it back around turn 30 while using a scout to do the rest of exploration. Don't build a settler before you city is size 4 at least. 5 is better. Let it grow and work improved tiles only.
The main question is when does AI's army appear? On prince they need a lot of time to build 7-8 units. A lot.

I'll look at the save and then comment some more. :)
 
On examining the save myself (it is several turns before the situation that led me to give up) I have discovered that I could have offered peace to Darius already--and he would have offered me gold for it. That could have saved me the disastrous counter-attack which I attempted, which, though it achieved peace, probably also could have had something to do with Japan seeing a weakness and DoWing me in turn.

So one lesson learned could be--check on peace conditions every turn. Or at least, more often than I did in this game.

But anyway, please do let me know what else you have to say about the game in the autosave.
 
Won't be able to load the save until later today, but some initial odds-and-ends thoughts:

  • Don't build a road to your settlement site. Road maintenance will kill your gpt and trade route income won't compensate until the population in your second city exceeds the number of tiles to your capital and your capital's population is even higher (the precise formula appears here).

  • Settle on a hill behind a river for optimal defensive posture. Also don't settle your second city directly toward the AI, and not too close. It's tempting to leap out to grab a great settlement spot right in the face of the AI, before the AI can settle there. Just as it would p#ss you off to lose that settlement spot, it may enrage the AI.

  • Prioritize Archery and production of archers. They are far more effective than warriors at defending against barbs and AI. Warriors are only good at this point in the game as escorts for settlers and zone of control buffers for archers. And, as Light Cleric notes, target the AI's melee units first. They can beat your city's health down to zero with ranged units, but without melee units they can't take the city.

  • Escort your settler; don't send your settler off alone, even if you have a warrior camped out at the settlement site.

  • Grow your capital's population and build its infrastructure before spitting out settlers. Your ability to compete early and to produce units for defense depends on getting your capital's population up and its infrastructure in order. Building settlers stagnates your capital, so most don't start that process until they are at least at 4 pop in their capital. Build an early granary to get growth started, build monument (or take Legalism, as The Pilgrim notes) to get social policies rolling, and work your food tiles; avoid the temptation to keep your capital on production focus.

  • Science. Why are you researching sailing so early? Unless you are on an archipelago map, or are starved for land-side food tiles, sailing is useless at this point in the game. Rather than sailing, research mining (for both mining resources and to chop forests) or animal husbandry (which will tell you whether you have horses and allow you to pasture horse, sheep and cattle tiles for extra production). Then get archery and calendar (in whatever order seems appropriate depending on the map) and then writing, masonry or bronze working (again, priorities depend on situation).
Lots more to consider, but will have to wait for review of the save file.
 
The Pilgrim said:
Monument should be in the mix as one of the first builds. Or at least take Tradition and Legalism to get a free one.
With starting warrior you don't need another one to defend from the barbs that early. Do you play with raging barbs on? If not, you have ~30-40 turns (assuming standard speed) to wander around until they become a problem that needs attention. Meaning they jeopardize your worker. Let you starting warrior to scout around in circle and bring it back around turn 30 while using a scout to do the rest of exploration. Don't build a settler before you city is size 4 at least. 5 is better. Let it grow and work improved tiles only.
The main question is when does AI's army appear? On prince they need a lot of time to build 7-8 units. A lot.

I'll look at the save and then comment some more. :)
Click to expand...

I used to make monument my first build in every city but after getting stomped by barbs or AI's, I began to think I needed to just not build any buildings until I knew for certain that I was totally safe from attack.

I don't play with raging barbs. Maybe I've been too aggressive toward them, though. I haven't paid conscious attention to what my "barb policy" is, so I'll try to watch that in the future. Don't attack them--just use them to defend my worker when necessary.

What's happened, though, is that barbs have appeared right next to my worker (or settler!) all of a sudden, with no place to escape to. (They're in a forest or coming over a hill, for example, and I'm surrounded by rough terrain and rivers.) I recognize this surely doesn't always happen, but it's happened to me enough times that I almost feel like I absolutely must have a military unit standing over each and every worker each and every turn. Hence the extra warriors I mentioned. It's not like I can reliably just never have a worker near any hills or rivers...
 
DagHammarskjol said:
What's happened, though, is that barbs have appeared right next to my worker (or settler!) all of a sudden, with no place to escape to. (They're in a forest or coming over a hill, for example, and I'm surrounded by rough terrain and rivers.) I recognize this surely doesn't always happen, but it's happened to me enough times that I almost feel like I absolutely must have a military unit standing over each and every worker each and every turn. Hence the extra warriors I mentioned. It's not like I can reliably just never have a worker near any hills or rivers...
Click to expand...

First, archers make better protectors. Second, this should not be a problem for workers that are working tiles in the first few rings around your capital (they can just leap back into the capital and/or work tiles on the other side of the capital, relying on the capital's ZOC to reduce barb mobility).

Third, this would certainly be a problem for a worker building a road through the wilderness to a future settlement site, or a settler making its way unescorted to that settlement site. As I said in my earlier post, don't build that road (it's a gpt sink) and don't send settlers unescorted.
 
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