Is every early war victory pyrrhic?

[Biologist]

I am currently beginning to play on Emperor, Epic speed. The build order I tend to use (and that seems to work well in most situations) is:

Scout > Scout > Shrine > Warrior/Archer > Monument

If I have Archery ready by the time the shrine is complete, I make the archer, not the warrior. As soon as I have archery, I stop making warriors (unless I need one to tank damage for my ranged units or grab a city) and make archers.

If I don't have enough hammers to get two scouts out before the shrine I use this:

Scout > [Start Monument] > Shrine > [Finish Monument] > Archer

If playing as the Mayans:

Scout > Atlatl > Shrine > Monument > Atlatl

Hope this helps.

 

[smallfish]

That's why you must explore your lands as early as possible. Use your initial warrior and scout to explore the map.

Warrior - explore 8 tiles around your cap, then move it back once your first worker is up to protect it from barbs... AND on map types like Frontiers and high diff, there will be a ton of them so watch out

Scout - find everyone and beat them to ruins if possible. If possible also, punch out another scout if the continent your on is pretty big and spacious with alot of potential ruins (like say... Frontier Large Continents)

 

[Buccaneer]

I post a screenshot so others who don't have Civ availiable right now can take a look at it too. A picture is worth a thousand words.

You have absolutely nothing at turn 111.

• As it's been mentioned already, this road is killing your economy. You don't even know when the settler is coming, why did you bother with it? You have enough of unimproved tiles (luxuries included) which need worker's attention.
  
• Warriors are absolutely horrible for offense. You can use one to capture a city, but archers should be your main force for both offense and defense.
  
• Not having monuments is a huge mistake. Overall, policies-wise you're all over the place. One in Tradition, one in Liberty and 3 in Honor. What exactly you're trying to achieve here? Next time go straight Tradition and don't mess with other trees.
  
• You've researched way too many technologies without sufficient base, i.e. libraries. You don't need a catapult. Archers would be more than enough at this point and Composite bowmen if you feel terrible insecure in your tactics skills.
  
• Tundra start is never too good, but this is one is bearable. I would definitely place second city to the south on marble and not in tundra, though. It's barely growing and settling this spot right in Darius' face triggered this war to begin with.
  
• If I understand correctly, all you've done so far was building units. This is not right. Again, you don't need more than one unit to face barbs. Build infrastructure. Granaries, libraries. Don't rush towards sailing and fishing boats. Sea resources take a lot of effort to improve, leave them for last, improve land based ones at first.
  
• You need to explore some more. Have you lost your scout?

Look at my sig. There is a whole section with Let's Plays. I highly recommend watching some of them. MadDjinn's specifically but not only. It's time consuming but very educational.
Hm... for some reason my IrfanView doesn't like fish under Dx9.

As usual, my friend, you give very good advice. One of the common mistakes inexperienced players makes is being unfocused or all over the place, looking at short-term needs/fixes and not working towards a solid longer goal.

 

[Buccaneer]

Last night I fired up a new game. I went (IIRC) scout, monument, worker, granary, archer (something like that) and concentrated on tradition. I kept an archer or warrior on top of every worker and settler, and didn't quite beeline but did rush to composite bows. Also, did not build roads til my cities were big enough, and I used early single resources to get money from the AI. (This feels exploity to me, though. ) Also, did a lot more purchasing than I used to, though I didn't end up being able to purchase my first settlers. The AI just didn't have that much money to give me so I had to take slowly through gpt deals.

Things went much better. I am the top civ by far right now (1525 AD or so), and I'm waging war on my own terms.

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone! I hope you understand I wasn't being completely stupid--there were just some game mechanics I either wasn't aware of or hadn't paid enough attention to. And the big problem that started it all was, when I got stomped militarily the first couple of times I played, I thought "I need a bigger military!" instead of realizing I could think, instead, "I need a better military!"

Very nice work!! It's always quality over quantity, even in cities. The key, as you find out, is to not only claim all the nearby resources but also to get those early resources making gold for you (it's not exploity). Good luck and don't forget to keep up the pressure in all areas and micromanage.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Warrior - explore 8 tiles around your cap, then move it back once your first worker is up to protect it from barbs... AND on map types like Frontiers and high diff, there will be a ton of them so watch out

Depends, I guess. I don't always bring my warrior back. If there is a lot of flat terrain in front of him and many Civs/CS to meet, I let him carry on and might rush buy an archer later. Or not. Barbs are not big deal. On the other hand, on frontier map they maybe are. I can't say.

As usual, my friend, you give very good advice. One of the common mistakes inexperienced players makes is being unfocused or all over the place, looking at short-term needs/fixes and not working towards a solid longer goal.

Yeah... Been there, done that.

 

[Puppier]

There are ways not to fall behind in the first place. Don't build wonders.

I always get to wonder building right away. Wonders can be VERY beneficial to your entire civilization. As long as you don't build them in lieu of defenses and infrastructure.

 

[Buccaneer]

I always get to wonder building right away. Wonders can be VERY beneficial to your entire civilization. As long as you don't build them in lieu of defenses and infrastructure.

On higher levels (don't know what level you play at), wonders are the lowest priorities in the early game except for Oracle or Stonehenge and the NC.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I always get to wonder building right away. Wonders can be VERY beneficial to your entire civilization. As long as you don't build them in lieu of defenses and infrastructure.

The thing is, they always come at the expense of defense and infrastructure and their benefit is marginal at best. Try a game two levels higher than you usually play and see how the strategy of building wonders right away works for you.

 

[ense7en]

I always get to wonder building right away. Wonders can be VERY beneficial to your entire civilization. As long as you don't build them in lieu of defenses and infrastructure.

That's just it. In the early game, you are guaranteed to be building them INSTEAD of infrastructure, or defensive units, etc.

While you build a wonder, you could have built a settler, work, and archer, etc.

Wonders are indeed extremely nice, but there's a very fine line on whether early on they are worth it or not, and at the higher difficulties, wonders early on will get you killed.
They won't help you when your capital is about to be captured because you didn't make enough archers or walls, etc.

Cultural victories are the ONLY victory where wonders are quite important to winning, and even then, you have to be choosy.

 

[iconocast]

some realy wonders can make a average city into a power house, or have some large sweeping affects on ur empire. i think thats the wonders ppl are usualy trying to build.

petra for ur desert city or stone henge for the faith race, great lib etc.

so they, if planned right, can have a greater affect than a worker or settler at that stage. especially if u manage ur income u can just buy that worker or settler.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I think we need to be fair here. Wonders do help. Although it comes down to one dilemma: pursuing a set goal vs. playing the map. If you're trying to get the fastest finish by science/diplo/culture, you do need many of them. HG, ToA, SH and even GL are all very helpful. Not to mention the Oracle, which is always helpful and Petra which can be a game breaker in OCC, for example. There will be a difference between dates when you get them vs. when you don't. However, if you just load a map and play it, without trying to break any sort of record, vast majority of the wonders can and should be skipped. As simple as that.

 

[Greasy Dave]

You've had advice from the professionals. I can't add anything better.

But I thought I'd throw this Let's Play link in for you:

http://www.twitch.tv/asgardtarai/b/343385933

He's playing at Deity, and he's spawned in forest so is able to get production bonuses from chopping down trees so his archers are popping out faster than normal....but this shows what it's possible to do in your first 80 turns.

Obviously, at Prince you won't be needing to be even a third as aggressive or efficient as he is. Still it's a good vid to study if you're having trouble with early wars. Even without forest chopping it is possible to get a sizaeble army together in that time.

You say you prefer concentrating on building and managing. If you're looking for a peaceful game bare in mind a couple of things:

1.You don't need to be aggressive with an army. But having a large army in your land defintely deters the AI from aggression against you.
2. Don't snatch workers from CS's - you get a warmonger negative modifier in your relationship status with other civs - in my own experience that makes a big difference in my early game regards peace or war.
3. Accept all DOF's and try to fulfil all/most requests for help from the AI.
4. Don't settle near an AI's borders.
5. Ally with as many CS's as you can (use your idle troops to fulfil their requests to wipe out barb camps) - CS's can act as buffers between you and an aggressive AI.
6. If a friendly civ invites you to go to war with him against another civ, politely turn them down.

Peace is still possible, it's just harder to maintain than it used to be before the patch.

 

[Biologist]

3. Accept all DOF's and try to fulfil all/most requests for help from the AI.

One caveat here. Try not to accept declarations of friendship with two AIs that both hate each other. They will each get a negative diplo modifier with you for having a DoF with one of their enemies, offsetting the positive modifier for having a friendship in the first place. Sometimes this is necessary when you want to sign multiple research agreements, but otherwise should be avoided, as you generally end up having to choose a side. As long as you make no binding diplomatic agreements (trade deals are fine) both parties should remain friendly with you indefinitely.

 

[smallfish]

But I thought I'd throw this Let's Play link in for you:

http://www.twitch.tv/asgardtarai/b/343385933

One thing that bugs me as I'm watching is... at T37, when his wounded warrior was on that wheat tile next to Karakorum, why didn't he pillaged it for additional HP as well as screwing with AI food (I guess it has to matter somewhat, even on Deity?)?

Depends, I guess. I don't always bring my warrior back. If there is a lot of flat terrain in front of him and many Civs/CS to meet, I let him carry on and might rush buy an archer later. Or not. Barbs are not big deal. On the other hand, on frontier map they maybe are. I can't say.

You should give it a try, Pilgrim. It's definitely more than on a standard map (same goes with ruins) due to bigger space - I had some three barbs converge on a newly built city from a northern encampment, in addition to a southern one a mere 4 tiles away.

 

[tommynt]

honestly, if u got some tech advanatge and 1 or 2 allied MS u dont have to build a single units and still every civ out there will be scared from you.

At least its like that in my games on lower lvls. Just dow some rnd civ for fun and get all their g/t 8 turns later to make peace

 

[The Pilgrim]

You should give it a try, Pilgrim. It's definitely more than on a standard map (same goes with ruins) due to bigger space - I had some three barbs converge on a newly built city from a northern encampment, in addition to a southern one a mere 4 tiles away.

Well, actually, I'm going to try this right now. Lets see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Jatta Pake]

Your dislike of warfare is contributing to the problem. You are playing overly defensive in my opinion. I think your build order is fine if you are on a conquest path and take Honor, otherwise you shouldn't bother with warriors and definitely don't use them to guard your worker. Go Scout, Monument, Worker...then maybe Warrior. You can also start building Warrior but switch to Archer once that tech is available.

I like to run my scout in a spiral pattern around my capital to get a good idea of resources, choke points, rivals, etc. If I'm feeling threatened, I use scouts for defense. Scouts are much better for defense than Warriors because they give you critical early warning when a rush is coming. Plant some on hills some distance from your main city between yourself and AIs. If you see a big carpet of units moving towards you, you have time to plan and prepare.

I like to crank cities out fast so I end up building a lot of settlers early on. The key is keeping them close together in a tight cluster. Roads are pointless early in the game. Keep your cities close and your scouts should give you time to orient your defenses when an attack is coming.

Don't keep your Scouts out of the fight either. They have a wonderful range of uses - blocking, attacking lagging siege engines, soaking up enemy fire, and finishing off wounded enemy units. After popping a few ruins, Scouts lose utility with exploration, meaning they reveal the map but don't give you much of a game advantage. Do you really care that a gold resource is 40 hexes away? I pull them back into my empire proper and use them to defend the realm.

I used to have the same problems with my play style as you describe above. I didn't really understand the combat mechanics and I ended up losing a lot of cities and units. Now I look forward to the enemy rush at my ICS empire. It becomes a death trap. And once they've shot their wad on an invasion, they are ripe for the pickings back at home.