Éa, Dawn of the Mortal Races (phase 1, pre-alpha code development and discussion)

Sezneg

Warlord
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
150
No time to play it. But I browse the subforum sometimes, and his commentary and detailed analyses are very good. I think Éa is a more radical departure from base particularly regarding growth. Making non-resource tiles not sustaining (or only barely so for Agrarian) turns everything else on its head.

I'm not sure that I read what he has written about gold/production balance. I want to try to even up the different yields as much as possible. The basic idea is to devalue 1 production a bit (by making it more available and/or inflating production costs), increase value of 1 gold (by doing the exact opposite), and so on for each yield type. It's not really essential but it simplifies balance and also AI valuation (the AI values yield types as basically equivalent, although it would not be too hard to add a correction factor for each yield type).

From my time with your alpha, the food per population is as large of a change to the game dynamics as your dynamic civilization trait system.

It completely changes EVERYTHING, it forces you to be much more careful in city plot selection... and those early food resources (whatever they may be) in turn define the early development of your civilization, and which name you get.

It's the first CiV mod I've messed with that didn't feel like CiV.
 

Pazyryk

Deity
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
3,584
This looks very cool. May have to reinstall CiV for this.

Don't do it for Éa yet. I'm still looking at mid-/late-November on alpha. And that can shift. I think I posted somewhere that I would have it out on the last day of the world, 12/29/2012 (hopefully before Steam goes down).
 

Pazyryk

Deity
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
3,584
Minor change ;): plots without resource or improvement no longer provide any yield. OK, that sounds very radical, but let me explain why it isn’t really different than before. The changes I already made had made non-resource, unimproved plots effectively worthless. There was almost no circumstance in which you should work that 2 food grassland plot. It was better to assign a specialist or work a production-only (mined hill) plot even if that meant slow starvation. This is because: 1) resourced/improved plots are proportionately much better than in base, and 2) starvation is much more mild than in base (because cities get a “buffer” 50% food store whenever they grow or shrink). However, the AI doesn’t understand this and will opt for a 1 food plot if the city is at carrying capacity. So, rather than leave a bad choice that no one should ever take (but the AI will), I have removed it.

I’m using the space below to work out the entire plot yield balance. This helps to identify “holes” or obvious imbalances. I don’t necessarily feel that all resources need to be equal in value, but they should all have some interesting development over the course of the game (suggestions are welcome where they don’t). Info below supersedes older posts where there is a conflict.

PLOT YIELDS, IMPROVEMENTS AND RESOURCES

General plot yield info
  • Each citizen requires 5f.
  • City plots generate 4f1p minimum but all cities also have a -4 gpt maintenance
  • Base plots without resource or improvement have no yield at all with the exception of oases (5f) and some unique features
  • Non-resource plots can be improved as follows:
    • farms on grassland
    • farms on floodplains
    • farms on plains with freshwater
    • mines on hills
    • sawmills on forests
    • floating gardens on lakes (improvement created via Floating Gardens "building"; see below)
  • Improvement yields are large, typically 3-5 and boosted further by techs, policies and buildings
  • Resource yields are large, typically 3-5 and boosted further by techs, policies and buildings

Improvement yields for Agrarian development (with tech and policy boosts)
Includes Agrarian opener bonus (+1f for farms and pastures)
farm +4f; Irrigation +1f (fresh water only) / Crop Rotation +1f; Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
pasture +3f1p; Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
camp +2f1p; Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
plantation +3g1c/ Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
vineyard +2g2c / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
mine +2p1g (+1p hills) / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
quarry +2p1c / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
sawmill +3p / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
gatherer's hut +3s / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p
fishing & whaling boats +3f / Taxation +1g / Industrialization +1p

Wildlands boosts for Pantheistic development (with subsequent policy boosts)
All resources are either Animal, Plant or Earth. These bonuses apply to unimproved (“wildlands”) plots only.The Weave of Ea provides +1f1p (included below). Many cults boost plot yields further by resource, plot or feature type. Note that Pantheistic civs can build improvements and it may be beneficial to do so. However, this negates bonuses below and these improvements will revert to wildlands with later Pantheistic policies.
Animal +1f1p; Animal Lore +1f1p1s; Feral Bond +1c1m
Plant +1f1p; Woods Lore +1f1p1s; Fellowship of Leaves +1c1m
Earth +1f1p; Earth Lore +1p1g1c1m

Resource yields with building & tech modifiers
All provide +1g with market (not shown below). At the end of each I’ve summed yield values by tier available (1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th). *Means that this resource is a strategic or luxury resource or it can be converted to one by a building.
Copper (s; Mining; Bronze W.) 3p; forge 2p; mint 1g; armory 1p; factory 1p (3/6/6/7/8)*
Iron (s; Mining; Iron Working) 3p; forge 2p; mint 1g; armory 1p; factory 1p (3/6/6/7/8)*
Blasting Powder (s; Chemistry) 3p2s; wrkshp 2p; armory 1p; lab 2s; factory 1p (0/0/7/10/11)*
Mithril (s; Alchemy; Mithril Working) 4p2s; forge 2p; mint 2g; armory 1p; lab 2s; factory 1p (0/0/0/13/14)*
Gold, Silver (l) 3g; fair 1c; mint 2g; bank 2g; jeweller 1g1c (3/8/10/10/10)*
Gems (l) 4g; fair 1c; bank 2g; jeweller 2g1c (4/7/10/10/10)*
Jade (l) 4g; fair 1c; jeweller 1g1c (4/5/7/7/7)*
Stone 4p; stoneworks 2p2c (4/8/8/8/8)
Marble (l) 2p1c; stoneworks 1p2c (3/6/6/6/6)*
Salt (l) 2f1g; smkhs 1f; saltworks 1f1g (3/6/6/6/6)*
Fish 5f; smkhs 1f; harbor 2f; port: 2g (6/8/8/8/10)
Crabs 5f; harbor 2f; port: 2g (5/7/7/7/9)
Oysters->Pearls (l) 1f2g; fair 1c; hbr 2f; jeweller 1g1c; port: 2g (3/6/8/8/10)*
Whale 2f1p; ivorywks 2c*; hbr: 2f; port: 2g; whalery 2f2p (3/7/7/7/13)*
Deer 4f1P; smkhs 1f; tnnry 1p*; Tracking 1f; htg ldg 1f1c; Animal Mastery 1f (7/10/11/11/11)*
Boars 4f1P; smkhs 1f; tnnry 1p*; Tracking 1f; htg ldg 1f1c; Animal Mastery 1f (7/10/11/11/11)*
Small game->fur (l) 2f1g; Tracking 1f; htg ldg 1f1c; Animal Mastery 1f; txt mill: 2g2c (3/6/7/7/11)*
Elephants (s) 2f1p; ivorywks 2c*; elstk 2p; Tracking 1f; htg ldg 1f1c; Animal Mastery 1f (3/10/11/11/11)**
Mûmakil (s; Note that these are not on initial map: they only occur through resource spawning from Elephants; see below) 2f1p; ivorywks 2c*; elstk 2p; Tracking 1f; htg ldg 1f1c; Animal Mastery 1f
Horses (s) 2f1p; smkhs 1f; tnry 1p*; stable 2p; Domestication 1f; abttr 2f; knckry 2p; An. Breeding 1f (5/12/13/13/13)**
Cows 3f1p; smkhs 1f; tnnry 1p*; Domestication 1f; abttr 2f; knckry 2p; An. Breeding 1f (6/11/12/12/12)*
Sheep->Wool (l) 2f1g; smkhs: 1f; Domestication 1f; abttr 2f; knckry 2p; An. Breeding 1f; txt mill: 2g2c (4/9/10/10/14)*
Wheat 4f; grnry 2f; brewery 1c* (6/7/7/7/7)*
Banana 5f (5/5/5/5/5)
Dye (l) 3g1c; fair 1c; txt mill 2g2c (4/5/5/5/9)*
Silkworms->Silk (l) 3g1c; fair 1c; txt mill 2g2c (4/5/5/5/9)*
Cotton (l) 1p3g; ctn gin 1p1g; txt mill 2g2c (4/6/6/6/10)*
Spices (l) 1f3g; fair 1c (4/5/5/5/5)*
Sugarcane->Sugar (l) 3f1g; distillery 1c* (4/4/5/5/5)**
Grapes->Wine (l) 2f1g; fair 1c; winery 1g1c (monastery 1c) (3/6/6/6/6)*
Citrus Trees->Citrus (l) 4f1g (5/5/5/5/5)*
Incense (l) 4g1c; monastery 1c (5/5/7/7/7)*
Reagents (s) 1g3s; apothecary 2s; lab 2s (0/4/4/6/8)*
Yew (s) 3p; bowyers 1p1g1c (0/3/6/6/6)*
Naphtha (s; Chemistry) 3p2s; lab 2s; factory 1p (0/0/7/10/11)*

Resources (non-map)
Timber (strategic) Timberyard provides 1 per sawmill (or 1 per 4 unimproved forest or jungle for Pantheistic); also gain 3 for 30 turns after forest or jungle chop
Leather (luxury) Tannery provides 1 per improved cows, horses, deer or boars
Ivory (luxury) Ivoryworks provides 1 per improved elephant or whale
Ale (luxury) Brewery provides 1 per improved wheat
Spirits (luxury) Distillery provides 1 per improved sugar
Porcelain (luxury) 1 from Kiln
Jewelry (luxury) 1 from Jeweller

Resource spawning
This will be very carefully balanced and rare (chance below is just my first guess at balance). This can occur with certain techs and policies, with cumulative probability if you meet multiple conditions. Resources will only spawn on a valid plot within 2 plots of a resource of the same kind. Percent chance indicated below is per existing owned resource. Enabling techs and policies:
  • Animal Breeding (0.5%) Any animal resource normally improved by pastures
  • Animal Mastery (0.5%) Any animal resource normally improved by camps
  • Beast Breading (special) Upon researching tech, Mûmakil resource will spawn from Elephants with 30% chance reduced by 5% for each previous spawn (to final minimum chance of 0.5%)
  • Harpoons (0.3%) Whales
  • Whaling (0.3%) Whales
  • Sailing (0.2%) All sea resources except Whales
  • Navigation (0.3%) All sea resources except Whales
  • Crop Rotation (0.5%) All resources normally improved by farms, plantations or vineyards
  • Bowyers (0.5%) Yew
  • Alchemy (0.5%) Gold, Silver, Blasting Powder, Naphtha
  • Metal Casting (0.3%) Copper, Iron
  • Deep Mining (0.2%) Copper, Iron, Gems
  • Underdark Lore (0.2%) Copper, Iron, Gems, Gold, Silver, Blasting Powder, Naphtha
  • Mitrhil Working (0.5%) Mithril
    --policies (all Pantheism)
  • Animal Lore and Feral Bond (each 0.2%) All "animal" resources
  • Woods Lore and Fellowship of Leaves (each 0.2%) All "plant" resources
  • Earth Lore (0.4%) All "earth" resources

(The following replaces an earlier post)

BUILDINGS
Heldeofol cities can build only a subset of buildings (indicated by “H”)

No tech, policy or resource reqs
Capital +2f3p7g3s1c; 200 defense (note that high gold yield counters -4 gpt maintenance for each city)
Monument +1c
Warrens (H only) +3f; +10%f after growth

Teir 1 or 2 tech (specialist)
Library (Writing) +1c; +0.5s / pop; 1 scribe slot
Marketplace (Currency) +1c; 1g per improved resource 1; trader slot
Amphitheater (Drama)+2h2c; 1 artisan slot
Workshop (Mathematics) +1p; +10%p for buildings and siege units; 2p per blasting pwdr; 1 smith slot
Forge (Bronze W.; H) +10%p melee; +2p per copper, iron or mithril; 1 smith slot

Teir 1 or 2 tech (resource related; all req resource except granary and harbor; timberyard requires sawmill)
Smokehouse (H) +1f per improved deer, cows, boars, horse, sheep, fish, salt
Tannery (H) +1p and 1 Leather per improved cows, horses, deer, boars
Ivoryworks (Hunting) +1c and 1 Ivory per improved elephants or whales
Granary (Agriculture) +2f per improved wheat; +10% f after growth
Saltworks (Mining) +1f1g per improved salt; +10% f
Stable (Horseback Riding; H) +2p per improved horse; +30% production horse-mounted
Elephant Stockade (Mounted Elephants; H) +2p per improved elephant; +20% production elephant-mounted
Hunting Lodge (Tracking) +1f1c per improved deer, boars, small game and elephants
Abattoir (Domestication) +2f per improved horses, cows and sheep
Knackery (Domestication) +2p per improved horses, cows and sheep
Harbor (Sailing; H) +2f per fish, crab, oysters, whale; allows water trade
Timberyard (Milling; H) +1 timber per sawmill (+1 timber per 4 unimproved forest or jungle for Pantheistic civs)
Cotton Gin (Milling) +1p1g per cotton trees
Winery (Zymurgy) +1f1c per vineyard
Brewery (Zymurgy) +1c and 1 Ale per wheat
Apothecary (Thaumaturgy) +2s1mana per reagents; +10% health
Mint (Coinage) +2g from gold, silver, mithril; +1g from copper, iron
Stone works (Masonry) +1p2c per stone, marble

Other Tier 1 or 2 tech
Lighthouse (Sailing and Masonry; coastal) +2g; +20% trade
Water Mill (Milling; river) +1f1p
Windmill (Milling; windy*) +1f1p; *a city plot is windy if at least 5 adjacent plots are flat without forest or jungle (including water)
Floating Gardens (Crop Rotation; unimproved lake within city borders) This "building" can be built once for each lake plot in city borders; each time built, a lake plot will gain the Floating Gardens improvement (+5f)
Courthouse (Philosophy) +1h; 30% reduction occupation unhappiness
Walls (Masonry; H); 500 defense

Policy dependent (Agrarianism branch)
Smiths' Guild (Guilds) +1p; 2 smith slots
Traders' Guild (Guilds) +1g; 2 trader slots
Scribes' Guild (Guilds) +1s; 2 scribe slots
Artisans' Guild (Guilds) +1c; 2 artisan slots
Disciples' Guild (Guilds) +1 mana or divine favor; 2 disciple slots
Adepts' Guild (Guilds) +1 mana; 2 adept slots

Policy dependent (Pantheism branch)
Shrine (Polytheism or Theism; H) 2 mana; 1 disciple slot
Mounds (Pantheism; Sídhe only) +2 mana

Policy dependent (Theism branch)
Shrine (Polytheism or Theism) 2 divine favor*; 1 disciple slot
Monastery (Monastic Tradition) +2c; +2 divine favor*; 1c per wine, incense; 1 disciple slot
Monastic School (Monastic Tradition) +2s; 1 scribe slot
*Substitute mana for divine favor if fallen civ

Policy dependent (Slavery branch)
Gallows (Slavery; H) +2p; 10% reduction in occupation unhappiness
Debtor's Court (Debt Bondage; H) +2g; can convert 1 city pop to Slaves unit (1 per turn)
Slave Market (Slave Trade; H) +2g; can sell slaves for gold (g = half unit production cost)
Slave Stockade (Slave Raiders; H) +2p; occasionally spawns a Slaves unit (percent chance per turn = city pop)
Slave Knackery (Slave Castes; H) +1p; can render slaves for production (p = half unit production cost)
Slave Breeding Pen (Slave Breeding; H) Counteracts growth penalty for unhappiness by 50% and allows production of settlers regardless of unhappiness
Internment Camp (Servi Aeternam; H) +2p; Nearby revolting units are eliminated or converted to slaves

Policy dependent (Militerism branch)
Governor’s Compound (Militarism; H) +2g; 40% reduction in occupation unhappiness
Barracks (Discipline; H) +5xp all land units

Policy dependent (Tradition branch)
Fair (Tradition) +1h; 1c per improved gold, silver, gems, jade, oysters, grapes, dye, silk, spices; 1 artisan slot
Tribal Council (Tradition; different race city only) +2 happiness (counters 2 unhappiness penalty for conflicting civ/city race)
Forefathers’ Statue (Tradition; only in same-race city 100 turns after conquest) Ends occupation
University (Academic Tradition) +4s; +25%s; 1 scribe slot
Papermill (Scholasticism and Milling tech) +2s2c
Jeweller (Crafting) +1g1c; +1 Jewelry; +1g1c per gold, silver, gems, jade, oysters
Kiln (Crafting) +1g1c; +1 Porcelain

Policy dependent (Commerce branch)
Bank (Mercantilism) +25%g; 1 trader slot

Tier 3 or higher tech (specialist)
Factory (Machinery; requires Forge; H) +25%p; 1 smith slot
Port (Navigation; requires Harbor) +15%g; 2g per improved fish, crabs, oysters, whales; 1 trader slot
Theater (Literature; requires Amphitheater) +4h2c; 1 artisan slot
Opera Hall (Music; requires Amphitheater) +2h4c; 1 artisan slot

Tier 3 or higher tech (resource related)
Bowyer (Bowyers; H) 1p1g1c per yew; +20%p and +5xp archer units
Distillery (Chemistry) 1 spirits and 1c per sugar
Whalery (Whaling) +2f2p per whale
Armory (Iron Working; requires Forge; H) +1p per copper, iron, mithril, blasting powder; +5%p and +5xp melee units; 200 defense
Arsenal (Metal Casting; requires Armory; H) +1p per copper, iron, mithril, blasting powder; +5%p and +5xp melee units; 200 defense
Laboratory (Alchemy; requires Library) +6s; +2s per blasting powder, mithril, reagents
Textile Mill (Machinery) +2g2c per improved sheep, cotton, silk, dye

Other Tier 3 or higher tech
Castle (Construction) +1g1c; 700 defence
Stronghold (Construction; H only replacement for castle) 800 defence
Aqueduct (Construction) +20% health*
Public Baths (Construction; requires Aqueduct) +1 happiness; +10% health*
Colosseum (Engineering) +2h2c
Sewers (Engineering; requires Aqueduct) +20% health
Printing Press (Machinery) +4s; +10%s
Observatory (Astronomy; adjacent mountain) +6s
Shipyard (Shipbuilding; requires Harbor; H) +20%p and +5xp ships
Hospital (Medicine) +40% health
Deep Farms (Underdark Lore; H) +3f from mines; +3f2p from mountains
Museum (Aesthetics) +1 happiness; +25%c

Constructed by Great People (Minor Works)
Foundry (Iron W.; Engineer, 8 turns, 160p) +3 production
Academy (Philosophy; Sage, 8 turns, 160p) +3 science
Festival (Calendar; Artist, 8 turns, 160g) +3 culture
Temple (Pantheism or Theism; Devout, 8 turns, 160p) +1c; +2 mana or divine favor

Constructed by Great People (Great Works)
Cathedral (Architecture; Priest, 25 turns, 200p) +mod culture and divine favor this city
Trade House (Mercantilism policy; Merchant, 25 turns, 200g) +mod% gold for foreign trade routes to this city
Military Academy (Professional Army policy; Warrior, 25 turns, 200p; national wonder) +mod xp for land units produced in this city
Naval Academy (Ship Building; Sea Warrior, 25 turns, 200p; national wonder) +mod xp for naval units produced in this city
National Treasury (Coinage; Merchant, 25 turns, 200p; national wonder) +mod% / 2 gold on treasury in this city

*Health reduces the chance of disease or plague in very large cities; it has no effect on small to mid-sized cities (< 10 population)
 

Sezneg

Warlord
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
150
Man, for a polytheism player those first 50 turns are going to be ROUGH...

Also, map balance is going to be a real important part of making this work. You may need a custom map script for the mod that gives players a chance. Bad luck at start with this would be a disaster.
 

Calavente

Richard's voice
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,864
Location
France
well, for ressources, balance is not only done on the yield itself, but also on the tech necessary to unlock the yield, to the "strategic" aspect of it, if they have stackable empire-wide effect (like in MoM : tavern gives +1gold per access to tea and +.5gold per tea ressource), and even in this case the scarciness of the ressource is another balance aspect.
So I'm sure that with all those parameters you'll find nice ways to have all different but overall "balanced".

(and remember that in "vanilla cIV", fresh water farmed grass wheat was 7F and fresh water farmed grass rice 6F.. it wasn't equal. but wheat was generally in plain and more often far from fresh water )

may you "explain" if the agrarian-only improvements are terrain related or are they ressource limited?

do the tech tiers for ressource yield work also for wildlands lands ?

marble could get a bonus culture or gold with regard to stone (now it is worth much less and IRL it was worth a lot more)



looking at wildlands... me thinks they will have a hard time developping other ressources than food heavy tiles (+4F ressources) (5 or 6Fwith early wildland policies). they will rarely (save for very late game) be able to work more than 1 'non-food' tile per 3-4 food-heavy tile.
indeed, to work a mineral ressource, they need +4 excess food ; to work a vegetal commerce ressource, they need a +3excess food;

so wildland-civ can only cultivate ressources (wildlands will only be 1F,1P, which should be a no-go as per your own calculus).
of the ressources, getting more than 3 ressources producing at least 6f is mandatory to work that gold/gem/yew/reagents.

(IMO 1F,1P for wildlands might have been good when basic terrain had some 1-3 yield. now it is worth 0, save for ressources tiles....; maybe boosting base wildland? +1f in fresh water wildland ?, +1p on hills wildlands )

Well, it is true that I'm not counting (for balance) that even food ressource with wildlands will still produce late game 1m, 1c, 1s, 2p.... that might compensate for not working those commerce or prod ressources.
however, that only make those production or commerce ressource un-useful for wildland-civs... ie they have to work with at least two-third of the ressources non-useable for most of the game, and mostly 1/4th never useful at all (as in 1 food-ressource regions).

Maybe wildland tiles (eg with a civic) could get a chance to discover a vegetal or animal ressource on unworked tile? maybe it can depend on ..
-wildland strength
-inverse dependency with number of ressources available to the city.
-ratio of wildland/total tiles of the civ
-the local or global faith for The Weave
-a spell of a druid / mana-user
maybe it could be so that you roughly discover 1 ressource per city per 50-150 turns (for a 400 turns game) depending on the ratio of wildland/total tiles..


Spoiler :
very late game those are the one that bring enough food to "feed" another tile (that needs only 3f as any wildland produces at least 2f)
however those "yields" depend only on the ability to get those tech... late game you'll need at least 7-9F to feed a no-F tile (9 for mineral : stones, metal, 8 for non-food others (dye, incense, reagents, yew, , and 7 for spice or pearls (3f late-game) :
I'm not citing the ressources that produces 4f to 6f as I'm counting them as "self-sufficient".

cattle (10f very late game)
boars/deer : 11f very late game
sheep : 9f
horses : 9f
fish (8f or 10f wildlands get there or 11 if no wildlands but fishing boats)
crabs (7f : not enough, or 9f or 10 if no wildlands but fishing boats)

that's only 6-7 ressources that can help cultivate others.

whereas for agrarian (compared to wildlands): camp brings as much food, farms bring +4f, pasture +1
 

Pazyryk

Deity
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Jun 13, 2008
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3,584
Just to clarify: Pantheistic civs can build improvements. But this negates the wildlands resource bonuses they get, and advanced Pantheistic polices cause these plots to revert to wildlands over time. (I added this to text above.)

The new balance is pretty close to my pre-alpha balance. The goal is to be able to work all your resource plots assuming you have about 1/2 "high-food" and 1/2 "no-food" resources (or some mix of "medium-food" resources). That means that a high-food resource should give 10f at some reasonably early stage in the game:

For Agrarian:
fish w/ boats, smokehouse, harbor (all possible at Sailing): 11f
dear w/ camp, smokehouse, hunting lodge (& Tracking): 10f
cattle w/ pasture, smokehouse, abottoir (& Domestication): 10f
wheat w/ farm, granery: 9f (or 10f with fresh water and Irrigation)

Agrarian can also build self-sustaining (or slightly better) farms on non-resource plots:
grassland or plains river w/ farm, Irrigation and Crop Rotation: 6f
grassland non-river w/ farm and Crop Rotation: 5f
*Note that the Agrarian policy branch is packed full of bonuses for raw population (most are either per pop bonuses or specialist bonuses).

Pantheistic looses some food on the high end (+4f farm or +3f pasture bonus replaced by +2f for policy bonuses) but they can at least get some food for all resources (+2f for any Animal or Plant and +1f for any Earth). They are also getting a lot of science, culture and mana from plots that Agrarian civs don't get. Although they can farm unresourced plots, the 1f less they get is actually quite a severe difference: it only gets them up to self-sustaining on a fresh-water plot with Irrigation and Crop Rotation (it's possible but unlikely for a Pantheistic civ to have Crop Rotation). All in all, they are not supposed to grow as big as Agrarian civs.

Windmills and watermill also give 1f each.

Resource discovery will also be added at some point. But it's going to be linked to high end techs (3rd tier or higher) and very rare (maybe 1 or 2 per city over the course of a game...not more than that). Perhaps some spells too but it will have to be severely limited.

I'll also be editing StartingPlots.lua to account for the new balance. You need at least two high-food (or more medium-food) resources to get going. Beyond the capital, however, you will have to arrange your cities based on the land (you don't really have to consider this in base). In some cases that might mean some very close cities.
 

Calavente

Richard's voice
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,864
Location
France
thx for the comments :D

I still think (guesstimate?) that Pantheist will lose in term of abiltity to grow, and by a large factor.
It won't be that agrarian will profit better (able to get to size 20cities instead of non-agrarian 10-15), but that pantheist won't be able to grow enough (limited to size 2-5 cities versus a 10-12 agrarians).

an agrarian with 5farm (+4f; Irrigation +1f (fresh water only) / Crop Rotation +1f) can build a lone city and get it to decent size 6 to work that spicy copper or gold or mithril that has no food ressources around)
the Pantheist civ won't be able to do it.., the city will stay size 1 or 2 or oscillate between the two depending on the base city-plot yields.
 

Pazyryk

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Jun 13, 2008
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At worst, you can build a "mining town". Remember that there is no social policy arrest for settling many cities, though there is a -4 gpt flat maintenance per city. In effect, you are paying 4g per turn for that first citizen (ignoring settler build cost) and then 5f per turn for each additional citizen. You can always work all resources by some arrangement of cities. (You can work out for yourself that true ICS won't work.)

Agrarian civs are supposed to win the growth competition -- and by a very large margin. They can grow almost indefinitely given grassland or plains with river, though disease/plague will begin to set in at size 10 and be a big factor by size 20 (Aqueducts, Baths, and Hospitals factor into this). The Agrarian policy branch is all about getting the most from this population.

A pantheistic civ will, very roughly speaking, have about as many citizens in an area as there are resources. This could be a few medium sized cities or more smaller cities (more the latter if you are short on food resources). The policy branch, in conjunction with The Weave of Éa and the various cults, are supposed to make them competitive despite lower populations. Of course, achieving this is going to be quite a balancing challenge.

To quote myself from the OP,
  • Overall, the "civilization landscape" is much more varied than base in terms of both city sizes and distribution.
It's a big adjustment from Civ5 and Civ4. In Civ4 you wanted to minimize city overlap so players got used to a very "even" distribution of cities across the map. Some players try to do that also for Civ5 although they shouldn't (just watch MadDjinn play to get over this bad habit). In Éa it's going to be even more situational.


Edit: I just realized I didn't cover the city center plot above. This is boosted to 5f1p minimum (added to post above). So your pop 1 city will be growing at some rate if it can find a plot with even 1f. Once it grows to pop 2, you will need >5f from worked plots for growth. At pop 3, you need >10f from worked plots. Etc. (I keep saying that "small" cities will be important, but actual size 1 cities should not be that common.)
 

Pazyryk

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Jun 13, 2008
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Got my new computer yesterday. It's not a top-of-the-line "gaming" machine, but holy smokes it sure makes Civ5 a lot smoother! Map motion seems natural now. No longer has that vomit-inducing feel to it.

I have lot's of time set aside for modding this weekend. Can't wait to get back to it.
 

Sezneg

Warlord
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Apr 6, 2009
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At worst, you can build a "mining town". Remember that there is no social policy arrest for settling many cities, though there is a -4 gpt flat maintenance per city. In effect, you are paying 4g per turn for that first citizen (ignoring settler build cost) and then 5f per turn for each additional citizen. You can always work all resources by some arrangement of cities. (You can work out for yourself that true ICS won't work.)

Agrarian civs are supposed to win the growth competition -- and by a very large margin. They can grow almost indefinitely given grassland or plains with river, though disease/plague will begin to set in at size 10 and be a big factor by size 20 (Aqueducts, Baths, and Hospitals factor into this). The Agrarian policy branch is all about getting the most from this population.

A pantheistic civ will, very roughly speaking, have about as many citizens in an area as there are resources. This could be a few medium sized cities or more smaller cities (more the latter if you are short on food resources). The policy branch, in conjunction with The Weave of Éa and the various cults, are supposed to make them competitive despite lower populations. Of course, achieving this is going to be quite a balancing challenge.

To quote myself from the OP,It's a big adjustment from Civ5 and Civ4. In Civ4 you wanted to minimize city overlap so players got used to a very "even" distribution of cities across the map. Some players try to do that also for Civ5 although they shouldn't (just watch MadDjinn play to get over this bad habit). In Éa it's going to be even more situational.


Edit: I just realized I didn't cover the city center plot above. This is boosted to 5f1p minimum (added to post above). So your pop 1 city will be growing at some rate if it can find a plot with even 1f. Once it grows to pop 2, you will need >5f from worked plots for growth. At pop 3, you need >10f from worked plots. Etc. (I keep saying that "small" cities will be important, but actual size 1 cities should not be that common.)

The biggest hurdle for having competitive small cities vs fewer large cities is hammer output. It doesn't matter if you can reach the same total hammers across your empire, because the large city will produce actual useful things faster (MUCH!) than a small city possibly could. Being outgrown leads directly to being outbuilt and then outproduced.
 

rocklikeafool

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The biggest hurdle for having competitive small cities vs fewer large cities is hammer output. It doesn't matter if you can reach the same total hammers across your empire, because the large city will produce actual useful things faster (MUCH!) than a small city possibly could. Being outgrown leads directly to being outbuilt and then outproduced.
Which can lead to be out-researched.
 

Pazyryk

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The biggest hurdle for having competitive small cities vs fewer large cities is hammer output. It doesn't matter if you can reach the same total hammers across your empire, because the large city will produce actual useful things faster (MUCH!) than a small city possibly could. Being outgrown leads directly to being outbuilt and then outproduced.

Yes, big cities are powerful in this way. I certainly want you to look at the Agrarian policy branch and say, "This is what I need to grow very large cities and I simply can't live without that". But then the lower growth Pantheistic approach is going to have some specific (and quite different) advantages that are very hard to resist. And then you could forsake both and try a swarming strategy (fast expansion, small cities, many low quality units) taking perhaps a couple Militaristic or Slavery policies. As they say, "it's not overpowered if the other options are equally overpowered."

Which can lead to be out-researched.

Big (whether tall or wide) gets you advancement early in the game, since this is mostly a function of total population points. However, in mid- to late-game, Knowledge Maintenance will start to kick in. Basically, this "inverts" the research / population effect. It starts at 1 research / pop (as in base) but lowers and goes negative as you exceed 10 or so techs. As that happens, you need better and better research infrastructure to keep advancing. Or more specifically, you need to get that research / pop back up. This is probably best in a "medium" sized city: big enough to build all possible research infrastructure, but not excessively large beyond that.
 

Pazyryk

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Lot's of updates to buildings. I've added the updated stats in the post above under resources. All buildings are now in the game but I'm still troubleshooting some special mechanics.

There are a few buildings that make a new resource from another on a one-for-one basis. For example, if a city has nearby improved cows, horses, deer or boars, then it can build a Tannery. The Tannery will produce 1 Leather (a luxury resource) for each nearby plot that has improved cows, horses, deer and boars (wildlands counts as improved for Pantheistic civs).
 

Pazyryk

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A few changes to GP generation:
  • Barbs now give only 1 gp point per fight (non-barbs give you xp points). [Edit: I'm not changing xp! I'm changing gp points gained from combat.]
  • Many buildings now give 1 gp point per turn even without assigning specialists. These include all specialist buildings plus a few others.
  • Each assigned specialists gives 2 gp points per turn.

With all of my bug hunting I get to play the early game a lot. These changes are motivated by the difficulty of assigning specialists early in the game (or possibly later for some civs).

Note that GP spawn chance is not at all a linear function of gp points. As gp points goes up, chance of GP spawning approaches (but never exceeds) 15% per turn (assuming you have 0 GPs). In early game, gp points will matter a lot in getting this % up. In later game, you will have an excess of gp points so spawning chance will be determined almost entirely by the number of GPs you already have (though gp points still matters for determining which class you get, so specialists can be used to fine-tune that).
 

Calavente

Richard's voice
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but that means you won't can't build xp by killing barb:
thus you can't boost your army.... unless fighting other civs/CS.
could there be 2 types of barbs ? 1 for xp, 1 for gp ?
like animals and barbs ?
or
heldefol-like (xp) (spawned by camps)
random-others (spawned by tiles) : gp.
or the reverse.

or maybe you don't want barbs to serve as xp-farming... and that would be your decision (that I would thus respect :D)... (or maybe warrior gp guve an aura that boost xp gain..and thus enable xp farming?)

on buildings :
could there be some advanced ressources building that give yield "per X ressource available to the city" ...
otherwise, most buildings seem wonderful unless you realise that you will at most get 2 (possibly 3) of those ressources in cultivable distance, other ressources will arrive by your empire network.

on ressources :
(I resent why horses have more yield than elephants...) Elephant could give both leather and ivory (and that would be enough : less "yield" than horses, but one more ressource ).. and that would be logical : elephant/water buffalo/rhino/hippo hide was used for shields.)

last on wildlands :
I still notice that pantheist "wildlands" without ressources becomes your "bad choices" that you tried to remove:
However, the AI doesn&#8217;t understand this and will opt for a 1 food plot if the city is at carrying capacity. So, rather than leave a bad choice that no one should ever take (but the AI will), I have removed it.

maybe wildlands could either give a "less bad choice"
like 1f1p at first but quickly +1f, (with animal lore) then +1s or g p (with wood lore) that would be a total of 4... less of a bad choice but still a lot less than agrarians improvements that get roughly 6 yield (save farm at 8).

or

wildlands could be changed to give 0 unless on ressources ... BUT have a small chance of having ressource (or facsmile ressources) pop-up...(I love ressource creation...) ... (maybe depending on the principal cult of the nearby city)
that would be nice.. and would make pantheist land attractive for conquest by others :

"lookit those rich un-cultivated (understand "un-owned")lands that we might civilize...".

and might "mimick" how western colonialists saw the primal civs (american native lands, jungles, icelands... etc that were in fact owned and "tended" even if there was no "improvements")

Those could be "facsimile" ressources, that disappear if wildland is cut or if improvement is built on it
(such as pinguin or mushrooms in some FFH modmods...)
 

Pazyryk

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Just a note on plantation resources: Many of these are weak on yield. That is partly because I'm struggling for ideas to develop these in interesting ways. In base Civ5, I don't much remember whether I had spices or silk. I'd like to add buildings or mechanisms that make each one play out a little differently. For example, Citrus now allows your ships to travel long distance without taking random damage (from scurvy). If anyone has ideas for the other non-memorable resources, let me know.

but that means you won't can't build xp by killing barb:
I'm not changing xp gain! I'm only changing gp points gained from combat. It is normally 1 gp point per 1 xp. Now it is 1 gp point per barb combat. (Otherwise you only have Warrior spawns early in the game.) It is still 1 gp per 1 xp for combat with non-barbs.

on buildings :
could there be some advanced ressources building that give yield "per X ressource available to the city" ...
otherwise, most buildings seem wonderful unless you realise that you will at most get 2 (possibly 3) of those ressources in cultivable distance, other ressources will arrive by your empire network.

Some like Tannery benefit from 4 different kinds of resource, others from only 1 or 2. I try to balance with this in mind, assuming you might have 4 relevant resource plots for the former and 2 for the later. If you have more than that, then the building becomes a super good deal. If less then it is probably not a worthwhile build (unless you have nothing else to build, but I'm trying to make that unlikely). No doubt some are poorly balanced even on this criteria -- just point out specific cases and I'll try to adjust.

on ressources :
(I resent why horses have more yield than elephants...)
Remember that Elephants give you "Elephants" (strategic resource needed for all elephant-mounted units) and Ivory (via Ivoryworks). But I agree Elephants need a little boosting as they should be as good as horses (which also give you 1 strategic and 1 luxury, but greater yield as I have it now). I'll probably boost them a few yield points.

I'm having some trouble with the Smokehouse acting on so many different resources. I think there may be a game engine limit on this. I know 4 works fine, but much more and there is some problem where the building is "disabled" in the city build queue when it shouldn't be. Not sure if it is a simpe UI issue (which I can fix) or on the dll side (which I will be able to fix but not for a while). In any case, this is one reason why you can't make Leather from Elephants (and Sheep).

Also, Leather is already the most common luxury resource, so will be less valuable as a trade resource than others. I don't necessarily think this is a gameplay problem, however. These kind of "imbalances" actually add interest.

last on wildlands :
I still notice that pantheist "wildlands" without ressources becomes your "bad choices" that you tried to remove:
I fixed this over the weekend. The wildlands yield boosts only happen on resource plots. So non-resource plots still have zero yield. There will be other (indirect) bonuses for owning a lot of (non-resource) wildlands plots (a few already listed for particular Pantheistic cults).

BUT have a small chance of having ressource (or facsmile ressources) pop-up...(I love ressource creation...) ... (maybe depending on the principal cult of the nearby city)
that would be nice.. and would make pantheist land attractive for conquest by others :
There will be some resource spawning, but it will be very rare (just a few per game I suspect). It's tied to both techs (3rd tier like Animal Breeding, Animal Mastery and Crop Rotation) and certain pantheistic policies, and probably spells and rituals. (This is clearly an area where I have to mod with restraint so it doesn't get out of hand.)

On your second point, an important part of Pantheistic development is that your lands are relatively worthless -- or even outright hostile -- to other civs. No improvements. Also lots of forest and jungle. And worse, those forests and jungles are stronger. Strength of a forest is a random 1-5 at game start (subsequently spawned forest has strength = 0), and this is the % chance per turn that it will spread to an adjacent tile or regenerate if cleared. Each clearing reduces strength by 1 point. But the pantheistic policies Fellowship of Leaves and Forest Dominion boost strength quite a bit, as does some Druid spells and rituals. If you've played my early builds at all, you will know how nasty this is to other (non-pantheistic) players -- non-camp improvements become "overgrown" or "flooded", causing loss of the improvement yield until the forest, jungle or marsh is cleared.

On the other hand, pantheistic civs will have some additional resource spawning, making their land more valuable once cleared and developed. So they are still potential targets for other civs. Just be sure to arrive with an army of workers.
 

Pazyryk

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Question: Are base Civ5 golden ages under-powered?

I think the answer is yes. The reason I say this is because high-level players always sell all extra luxury resources (even the last one in some cases) and never trade for them. In fact, it is pretty much a standard in strategy forums posts that your happiness should fluxuate around zero if you are playing correctly.

Therefore, the reward for extra happiness doesn't seem to be enough of a reward. What would make golden ages really golden? I was thinking maybe one extra of every yield type from each plot that already has that yield (except food, since this would lead to later starvation). It's common in Éa to get culture, science and mana (or divine favor) from resources, so that could be a nice (and very visible) effect. And/or I could have golden ages affect great people actions by boosting all GP modifiers during the GA.
 
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