1.16 - Holy Roman Empire: looking for a strategy

[rmontaruli]

1.16 - Holy Roman Empire

It's time to define a strategy to play Holy Roman Empire and get the UHV.

These targets are required:
UHV 1

• Control St.Peter Basilica in 1000 AD
• Control the Church of Anastasis in 1200 AD
• Control All Saints' Church in 1550 AD

UHV 2

• Have three catholic vassals in europe in 1650 AD

UHV 3

• Settle a total of 10 Great Artists or Great Statesmen in Vienna
• Have pleased relations with 8 independent European civs by 1850

UP is double speed of construction of religious buildings
UU are Landsknecht (pikeman) and Grenzer (grenadier)
UB is Rathouse (Civic square)

Start time: 840 AD

Compared to previous versions of DoC, difficult of UHV increased a lot.
Now we have also to vassalize three civs, settle more GP and have less time to get Rome.

Furthermore the game will end in 1850, after born of Prussians and flip of their core cities, so, we have to plan how to use our starting settlers.

First of all, one question.
Is it possible to play with HRE in a 3000BC start and have any hope to achive UHV1?
To control St.Peter Basilica, it is necessary to have St.Peter Basilica somewhere, and conquest that city within a few turns.
I don't know if it could be possible, and funny to play.

So let's concentrate on 600 AD start.

Starting tile is Frankfurt. It will flip to Prussians about 1700 AD.
Starting army is almost enough to conquer Venice and Rome: 3 lancers, 4 catas, 3 swordmen, and some crossbows.

Vienna will flip to us after 3 turns.
Buda will compare little later.
Venice must have.
Rome is part of UHV1.

The first question is how to use the two starting settlers.
Frankfurt is a very good place, with iron and horses in the radius.
Hamburg is on the coast, but too close to vikings (in a game Hamburg flipped to them after few turns), and in 1700 will flip to Prussians.
Brandeburg is far enough from Vikings, and have many resources in its radius, but it will flip too to Prussians.
I have to try to settle on Praha, 2N to Vienna, in core...
Other suggestions?

Analisys of UHV 1

We have to get Rome within 1000 AD.
We have to occupy Jerusalem in 1200 AD.
We have to found Protestantism by 1550 AD.

Border with France is close and it will not open before 1000 AD, so, the way to Rome passes through Venice.
Move Lancers, Catas, Swords and one Crossbow on the hill south of Vienna.
In a good day French or Bizantines are trying to conquer Venice, and weak it enough to let us get it for free.
In other days we have to siege and bombard. In the meantime our lancers go to east to get Buda.
Units have to heal and then move to Rome.
Time is very very small.
I play at Epic speed in order to have more time.

Once got Rome, we'll have the Catholic shrine income, that is a lot of money.
But we have to occupy Jerusalem in 1200.
The way by ground is too hard: we'll meet Arabs and Turkish that don't open border.
So we have to choose the way by sea.
Train 2 boats in Rome.
We need 4 lancers if Jerusalem belongs to any civ (in this case it is often weakly defended), but if it is independent, we'll meet 4 crossbows, and 4 lancers may not be enough.
But if Jerusalem is independent, we can siege it and bombard with a couple of catas.
If it belongs to somebody, the plan is to attack from sea exactly in the 1200AD turn with the lancers, and escape the next turn with survivers.
If it is independent, we need some turns to bombard.
It is doable. With a bit of luck, but doable.

The UHV 3
In the meantime other cities must work for UHV3.
We need 2 cities, one for GA and one for GS.
Theater, veawer and National Theater for artists.
Rathouse, National Monument and courthouse for statesmen.
Also we need Santa Maria del Fiore, and a civic to increase GP production.
So let start research path to Patronage.

The open points where i have not yet a solution are the diplomatic targets:
a) vassalize 3 catholic civ (there will be no Italy. First civ is Poland, the second must be a catholic France, and third? Spain? Portugal? What else?

b) Pleased relations with 8 independent European civs by 1850.
From west to east we have Portugal, Spain, France, England, Nederlands, Scandinavia, Prussia, Poland, Russia...
(Greece may not spring, and Italy belongs to us)
Are Ottomans European?

This last point needs suggestions.



So, best strategy involves the following questions:
1) Where to settle at the beginning of the game

2) What civs do vassalize?

3) How to manage in order to get pleased relations.

 

[oioi23]

1. I go with Frankfurt and Hamburg but I’m not sure how good this is, maybe Brandenburg instead of Hamburg is a good idea. Frankfurt will be amazing but takes sooo long to get going

2. For the Vassals, my strategy is going for two birds with one stone by declaring war on France to walk straight to Rome bypassing the usually well-defended Venice and then taking the army back round to conquer France until they capitulate.
If you can stop random people from conquering Venice Italy will then spawn, giving you your second vassal. Then just build an army and attack Poland till they capitulate.

3. The 3rd UHV i have not succeeded in . Prussia spawn means a high chance of loosing Frankfurt, last time I tried I got to 7 great people but only 2 good relations. Would love tips on this. And yes the ottomans do count.

 

[rmontaruli]

2. For the Vassals, my strategy is going for two birds with one stone by declaring war on France to walk straight to Rome bypassing the usually well-defended Venice and then taking the army back round to conquer France until they capitulate.

It seems an interesting strategy. I excluded it, but if you say it works...
So, moving all army to the south to get Rome, then going back to siege Marseilles and get French capitulation.
The advantage of this plan is that if you fail, you'll quit and restart.

Two questions:
1) what if France counter-attacks Frankfurt in the meantime?
2) how and when you get Buda?

 

[rmontaruli]

First try of conquest of Rome through France was unsuccessful.
Bad rolls of dices of catas, that didn't weak enough Rome.
I met 2 crossbows, 3 heavy sperarmen and 1 archer.
Two swordmen lost.
First turn of attack left one weak unit in defence, and Bizanitines took advantage.

And what about Buda?

Spoiler :

 

[Hickman888]

I just completed the Holy Roman victory a few days ago, so it is still fresh on my mind. Here is how I would suggest you go about things:

First, you really shouldn't need to declare war on France in order to go take Rome. Charlemagne will grow pleased with you in less than 10 turns, and you can get open borders with him to march your army through his lands, peacefully. Also, try not to attack Venice at all, as an independent Venice insures that Italy will spawn in in 1167 AD, thus making your third goal easier.

For city placement, I find the default Frankfurt/Brandenburg/Vienna placement works just fine, and I'll also settle another city in the Netherlands when I can spare the time for it, usually around 1100 or 1200 AD. But if you want to make room for a third core city for your empire (you might become unstable in the Medieval era due to temporarily holding a lot of foreign core land from attacking Europeans), that would be good too. I don't think it matters too much.

In my games, I focused on training up more workers as soon as the game began (I prefer having about 6 workers, Manorialism makes them very cheap) and using those workers to build improvements over the iron, pastures over the animals, and roads connecting all the cities. You can worry about building farms and lumbermills once all the aforementioned tasks are complete. Once your war-resources are hooked up, have all your cities build military units, nonstop. Train crossbowmen, lancers, trebuchets, etc. Tributaries is such a powerful civic as the Holy Romans, for being able to build military with excess . Research Doctrine, and adopt Theocracy ASAP, making sure Catholicism is in all of your cities. Don't bother making barracks' and stables until later on, unless a city is rich in and you have the time for it. Keep a couple of reserve lancers in your homeland when you send your crusading army down to Jerusalem (Deus Vult), just in case the Vikings decide to declare war. Keep training your military until you feel as though you have enough strength to conquer three vassals.

For your three catholic vassals, I would choose between Poland/France/Spain/Portugal. Hell, you can also (and I did) vassalize all four, and with the tributaries civic, you can get your palace up to 40 something when their colonial empires take off. Just be warry that for every war you declare against a European, you're going to permanently hurt their friend's feelings. However, for every vassal core city that you take and return to them, you get a permanent diplomatic boost with that civ. You also get more in your cities from each vassal. It's up to you. Anyways, Poland will collapse on its own in the 17th century, and the other vassals will grow such immense colonial empires that they'll have the courage to declare independence from you later on when you demand a resource from them (I prefer to do it after I end my war with Prussia).

After you get your Catholic vassals, its smooth sailing for the next few hundred years. Just make sure you're the first to Protestantism. When Prussia spawns, I ultimately let them have Berlin and Frankfurt. In fact, I let the cities flip, and then retake Berlin momentarily, just to "liberate" it to the Prussians to get a little diplomacy boost.

As for the great people, I ultimately dedicated Vienna to being my primary and only great person farm. None of my other cities contributed any great people in the game I won! I started by building a theater and a weaver in the city not long after spawn, in order to run artists and begin work on my settled great people. Adopt Clergy once your 3 catholic vassals are secured, in order to quickly build Santa Maria del Fiore, a Rathaus, and the National Epic, all in Vienna. Additionally, use an artist to build a museum in Vienna. (Trust me, it's worth it. Vienna should have Influential culture by then!) All of these buildings combined let Vienna safely be the only source of your great people. You can adopt Monasticism after you finish these important buildings.

Anyways, sometime in the 17th/18th century, you're going to want to abandon Elective for Republic, as well as beeline Social Contract for Constitution. With these civics, you will easily be able to run a maximum of 14 statesmen in Vienna! You want Great Statesmen at all costs at this point in your game! In fact, once you get about 7 settled great people in Vienna, I would stop settling Great Statesmen in the city, unless you are absolutely sure that you won't be getting another Great Artist for the rest of the game. Great Statesmen are very valuable at this point. Keep all of your Great Statesmen in Vienna, don't use them. Beeline Representation for the free Great Statesman if you believe that you can both beat the Americans there, as well as handle the -5 stability from running Republic. Once you feel you are in a position to make 8 European civilizations happy with you, send your Great Statesmen to the capitals of the non-pleased civilizations, and activate their Diplomatic Mission ability! They will become pleased! (BTW, the Ottomans do NOT count as a European civilization for this goal, but the Moors do.)

Good luck! If you have any other questions about how I handled it, feel free to ask!

 

[rmontaruli]

Good luck! If you have any other questions about how I handled it, feel free to ask!

Tell about Jerusalem. How did you get it? By sea or by ground? What army?

Another general question is: what are the conditions to allow Italy to spawn? Venice must be independent, or could it belong to any other civ (ie. Bizantines) ?

 

[phoenixfire7]

For Italy to spawn at least 1 city in Italy must be independent. I don't think it matters whether it's Venice so if Naples is independent then Italy will spawn (I think).

When I atttacked Jerusalem, I used lancers and trebuchets using a mixture of land and sea routes

 

[rmontaruli]

Once again Bizantines took advantage of my attack!

Spoiler :

However the strategy of waiting for French to open border, works.

I sent Lancers, Swordmen and catas to SW and waited for open border.
It happened in 920AD (Epic speed).
I also sent crossbows and other units found in Wien to the east waiting for Buda...

This strategy can be improved, sending an extra crossbow to Rome.
With an extra unit i could have conquered Rome without leave Bizantines the chance to take advantage.

I settled Frankfurt and Praha.
Frankfurt is too good, and Praha will not flip to Prussians. It means to play from 1700AD to 1850AD with a well improved city in my core.

Tomorrow another try.

 

[Hickman888]

Tell about Jerusalem. How did you get it? By sea or by ground? What army?

Another general question is: what are the conditions to allow Italy to spawn? Venice must be independent, or could it belong to any other civ (ie. Bizantines) ?

I would just march your army by land through the Byzantine land, no point in ferrying them all over there with ships.

Once again Bizantines took advantage of my attack!

However the strategy of waiting for French to open border, works.

I sent Lancers, Swordmen and catas to SW and waited for open border.
It happened in 920AD (Epic speed).
I also sent crossbows and other units found in Wien to the east waiting for Buda...

This strategy can be improved, sending an extra crossbow to Rome.
With an extra unit i could have conquered Rome without leave Bizantines the chance to take advantage.

I settled Frankfurt and Praha.
Frankfurt is too good, and Praha will not flip to Prussians. It means to play from 1700AD to 1850AD with a well improved city in my core.

Tomorrow another try.

Bummer! Yeah, I noticed the Byzantines, French, and the Spanish can all have armies beside Rome, trying to take it. It is a bit of luck, but you can also try and let them make the first move, and you swoop in to finish the job!

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I would just march your army by land through the Byzantine land, no point in ferrying them all over there with ships.
Bummer! Yeah, I noticed the Byzantines, French, and the Spanish can all have armies beside Rome, trying to take it. It is a bit of luck, but you can also try and let them make the first move, and you swoop in to finish the job!

In my (pretty limited) experience, the foreign armies tend to be pretty small and either just sit there doing nothing or throw themselves against Rome's walls ineffectively. Especially the Byzantines.

 

[Hickman888]

In my (pretty limited) experience, the foreign armies tend to be pretty small and either just sit there doing nothing or throw themselves against Rome's walls ineffectively. Especially the Byzantines.

In one game I played, I marched up to Rome, only to find both the Spanish and the French sieging the city! I waited for either of them to make the first strike, but they just waited, as they had no siege units. One of them took it when my first wave failed.

 

[rmontaruli]

In the two screenshots i posted, Bizantium was not sieging Rome.
Just sent a unit from Neapolis to finish my work.

The point was to demonstrate if the strategy of waiting for open border worked, and it works at epic speed just in time.
Just need one more unit. (or get the chance to find a weaker Rome).

 

[rmontaruli]

This time i tried to send an extra crossbow to Rome.
Unfortunatly i got a first bad roll of dices: an event that let me suffer a -1 relation with French.
But i had no time to discover if French would open border because i got an OMG event, never seen before.

Spoiler :

Do you see the elephant in the room?


Well, a couple of turns later...

Spoiler :

I gave up.

 

[rmontaruli]

A good day, at last!
But i changed warfare tactic:
first i wasted a turn and waited for Wien flipped before entering in its land. In this way i don't afraid counter-attacks from Venice because i'm not in war with Independend 1;
second i sent 2 Lancers with crossbows to Buda and attacked from the North, in this way survivors can go back more quickly to defend unwarded cities, and Lancers have time to heal (1 turn) and join back to the rest of the army to conquer Rome.

I could attack Rome with 4 catas, 3 Lancers, 3 Swordmen and 1 crossbow.
Enough!

Venice survived to French and Bizantines attacks, and now i can wait for Italy born.

Spoiler :

 

[rmontaruli]

Here is Lombard People!

Spoiler :

 

[rmontaruli]

Now it is time to control Christian Shrine in Jerusalem.

Let's go! Strong army awaiting. Jerusalem weakly defended by one Turkish unit.

Spoiler :

Turkish collapsed 1 turn before my attack!
Now Jerusalem defence is stronger!

Spoiler :

1195 AD. Jerusalem under control.

Spoiler :

Got another piece of UHV.

Spoiler :

 

[rmontaruli]

Time to vassalize three christian civs. First one is Italy.
Vassalized in 1345 AD. Crown of Italy.

Spoiler :

 

[rmontaruli]

In this game i made some big mistakes. Take note.
First mistake, i wasted a Great Prophet sprung from Rome, using it to bulb some techs.
Do not try it at home!
Save your Great Prophet because there is a Protestant Shrine to build.

I had to force a GP production in Rome, with just a 40% of chances to get another GP.
I was luck, and i got it just in time: it is 1520 AD, deadline to get Protestant Shrine is 1550 AD.

Spoiler :

 

[rmontaruli]

Second vassal of the game is France.

I got Paris first, then Bordeaux.
France capitulated.

Spoiler :

I then gave both cities back to France, for its stability and friendly relation.
Another piece of UHV.

 

[phoenixfire7]

You get the shrine for free if you found protestantism then join the reformation but that can be more trouble than it's worth