1.21.1 released

HR 1.21.1: I played a Huge Ancient Odyssey Noble game on a Tectonics map as Tiglathpileser of Assyria (Industrious, Tactical) to see how the Dissent mechanic worked. By 1488, the Assyrians had reached the Industrial Era and were teching Electricity. They had some 40 cities, and had never had a Civil War.

I disabled all the silly victory conditions (leaving Conquest, Domination and Time), so the strategy was that the empire must be as large and powerful as possible, and vassalise its surviving competitors as early as possible, whilst not splitting up via civil wars. The easy difficulty level (Noble on a large shared continent) meant that the Dissent mechanic could be tested in an otherwise optimal environment, as it ensured access to many resources and pretty much guaranteed being able to get any desired early Wonders. That is, more difficult situations would lead to smaller empires.


Practices

Offsetting Dissent involved the following practices.

1. Gain access to all known Health and Happiness resources, by trade if necessary. Previous to HR 1.21, having surplus Happiness and Health was good insurance for future expansion but with Dissent it takes on a value of its own. It may be judicious to trade for multiple copies of a resource as insurance against the loss of a single source.

2. All cities should build all available culture buildings to maximise culture, meaning that Stonehenge is an even greater investment than it ever was. It may occasionally be judicious to spend gold on Culture.

3. The state should have a state religion, and this religion should be present in all cities. The presence of alien religions in a city substantially increases its Dissent and, once present, they cannot be removed for centuries (via Inquisitions). To offset the chance of their arrival at all in new cities, it is important to actively spread the state religion to new cities as soon as possible. This makes the use of the Theocracy civic important, as it allows Missionaries. Not only that, but Theocracy is Dissent-cheaper than the other early favourite, Monarchy. So, tech Divination early, and ideally have Missionaries accompany all settlers and `conquistadors'. Unfortunately, the usual-favourite early religion civic Orthodoxy is not a cheap-Dissent civic, so the big civ will generally be running Paganism.

4. Keep a close eye on the total civics-based Dissent with each new city. Cities get an age-based discount on their Dissent. Discount the discount when thinking of their Dissent.



Strategy

The game plan followed a Dissent-modification of a probably familiar strategy.


Phase 1 (Ancient Era): The empire expands rapidly, generally maintaining the lowest Dissent civics until reaching an initial Dissent-capped size. It is very important to not overexpand: Once Dissent begins, there is generally no way to stop it and a resultant descent into Civil War. Early expansion is Dissent-safer by settlement than conquest. An army of conquest may be necessary to consume or eradicate neighbours that are too close, but the resultant captured cities may have alien religions which will become a Dissent-pain in the longer term. Furthermore, vassal states are not possible in this era.

Tech to Calendar and revolt to Agrarianism, then to Property and revolt to Monarchy and build Stonehenge in the capital. Then, focus on training Settlers and Workers. Also build in the capital whatever other Wonders are possible, saving all the resultant Great People except for a Shrine-building Great Prophet. The first cities need, more than ever, to be placed to claim in their fat crosses as many different Happiness and Health resources as possible (whilst not forgetting the Strategic resources!), and Workers (maintain 2-3 per city) should prioritise hooking these up.

Run Agrarianism and not the Dissent-expensive Slavery civic! Yes, whipping the population down will temporarily lead to less Dissent because the resultant lower population will have increased Happiness and Health (which is a cruel but historically-valid irony). However, the resultant smaller cities will impair the benefits of the Great Golden Age of Phase 3.

In my test game, at the end of Phase 1, the Assyrian empire reached its initial Dissent cap at some 15-20 cities in about the year 350 whilst running the Dissent-cheapest then-available civics Theocracy, Tradition, Agrarianism, Reciprocity, Militia and Paganism. Its huge military had assimilated one neighbour (the Koreans) and defeated an assault by another (the Sumerians) who in Phase 3 later voluntarily became the Assyrians' first Vassal. The remaining civ on the continent was the (weak) Mongolian civ. However, the Assyrian army was compelled to glare across the Mongolian borders for the duration of Phase 2. It was frustrating to not be able to assimilate weak neighbours, or to send Settlers to colonise unused land. Whilst the Assyrians could have continued to conquer for the plunder, whilst razing all cities, they resented losing all that potential Assyrian population and cities full of useful buildings. Should they have instead practiced more realpolitik and emptied the Mongolian lands for later settlement by Assyrian settlers?


Phase 2 (Classical Era): This is a Dissent-enforced hiatus. Do not expand! Tech to Aesthetics, and build the Mausoleum of Maussollos. Whilst building it, tech to Law and build Jails everywhere (needed for later Constabularies).


Phase 3 (Medieval and Renaissance Eras): This phase is one long Golden Age of massive expansion by ruthless conquest and settlement to fill up all remaining accessible land.

As soon as the Mausoleum of Maussollos is completed, run the old `Medieval Great Golden Age Rort': Chain 4-6 expanded Golden Ages together using a total of 6 or 10 (saved and generated) Great People, the Taj Mahal, and possibly the Unique Wonder. At Odyssey speed, 5 chained expanded Golden Ages constitute a Dissent-free, Anarchy-free, 180-turn Great Golden Age. (Of course, being Humane would make this rort even more rewarding!)

The important non-military techs could have following order.

1. Politics, to build spies to steal tech from competitors (do fortified spies in our own cities help thwart espionage missions against us?)
2. Land Tenure, to enable Vassals
3. Compass, to build Caravels to scout the rest of the planet for settlement sites, collect (almost all of the!) Goody Islands, and ferry Scouts, Spies and Missionaries
4. Dogma, to run Fundamentalism, and build Inquisitors to purge our cities of alien religions
5. Constitution, to build Constabularies, the first Dissent-reducing buildings (in all cities)
6. Humanism, to build the Taj Mahal (so, we must be the first to tech Humanism)
7. Charter, to build Galleons, and Privateers, the latter to systematically weaken all competing navies (and build up our Great General points) and for Blockades --- settle Privateers on islands along competitors' coasts (in trios, 2 promoted for strength, 1 for healing) optimally aligned to Blocade more than 1 city if possible, until the enemy has Frigates (watch them tech Optics)

Switch to more powerful civics as they become available:

1. Run Theocracy, training as many Missionaries as possible, until the building of Monasteries (requires Theology) and later revolt to Aristocracy (requires Nobility) for hammers via trade routes.
2. Run Proclamation (lower maintenance costs) and possibly Codification (tech Constitution) if the empire has many cottages.
3. Run Agrarianism. By not using Slavery and whipping, the larger populations of all cities get more benefit from the extra production and commerce.
4. Run Professionalism (tech Artisanry) and then Free Market (tech Economics, if possible)
5. Run Warrior Code (requires Chivalry) and later Standing Army (Logistics).
6. Run Orthodoxy and then Fundamentalism

After the GGA, the civ will be far too large to remain stable, so, one turn before the GGA ends, it must divest itself of all its foreign colonies and switch to the lowest-Dissent civics available.

In my test game, at the end of Phase 3, the Assyrian empire had consumed the Mongolians, so shared a large continent with only one Friendly neighbour (the technology-stealing vassal Sumerians!). Furthermore, it had colonised almost all of the land on the surrounding smaller islands and continents. It consisted of about 80 cities, of which some 40 were on the main continent. This situation worked out well. All the continental cities had Constabularies, and the increased culture meant that the civ could actually cope with civic-based Dissent of the 40 cities with minimal-Dissent then-available civics. To ensure its stability, just before the end of the GGA, the Assyrian empire liberated to Vassal status some 40 cities of its offshore colonies, which generated some 10 vassals. An unpleasant side effect of the vassalization was that some vassals were born with Unhappy and Unhealthy cities. The imperial civilization wasn't able to grant them multiple copies of needed resources, so their cities shrank. (Worse: It may also be possible to create vassals that are inherently unstable at birth.)


Phase 4 (Industrial Era and beyond): During this phase, the empire should not expand, but instead aim to systematically vassalise its competitors via the old `hostage capital' strategy: Conduct a quick war aimed at conquering the capital city and then returning it after Capitulation. At the same time, the civ should improve its offset of Dissent via buildings so as to be able to safely run Dissent-expensive but otherwise more profitable civics. Settle any remaining isolated unpopulated pieces of land and donate them to existing vassals. Caveats: Such cities may not always find takers, single-city islands can't by themselves become vassals, and there is a hard limit to the total number of civilizations in a game (18 unless messed with by using a custom DLL). A Dissent-related problem in this phase is that the polluting buildings of the Industrial Era can reduce Health to the point that unhealthiness seriously increases Dissent. From a strong leading position, the civ can put off industrialising for a while. The tech path could begin with the following.

1. Radio, to build Broadcast Towers (-25% Dissent) in all cities
2. Civil Rights and, one tech later, Labour Unions: With Civil Rights, revolt to the Equal Rights civic, which ensures a short Golden Age when a Great Person is born. Engineer a Great Person to appear after Labour Unions, then in the Anarchy-free Golden Age, revolt to Social Welfare to enable rushing production using Gold, and, as a bonus, reduce civics-based Dissent.

In my test game, sadly, during Phase 4, in 1488, after a Capitulation-Open Borders-Move Units sequence, the Assyrian empire had a sudden Collapse and I received the following window message.

Code:
Python Exception

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "CvScreensInterface", line 774, in forceScreenRedraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 1058, in redraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 2455, in updateGameDataStrings

NameError: global name `localText' is not defined


Critique

Sources of Dissent and Stability

The HR1.21.1 version of Dissent makes gameplay a little flat. It imposes fairly hard limits on empire size in each era that don't (appear to) scale with map size. It makes rolling conquest impossible without complete extermination. This was visible in my test game, but the limitation would be more severe in other scenarios. It also makes critical the techs leading to Dissent-reducing buildings and strongly encourages intolerant mono-religious civilizations (which is possibly historically realistic?). It also means that a simple oversight by the player (I forgot to stop city growth, I missed the repercussions of a cessation of trade) could lead to an unstoppable spiral into Civil War, which isn't fun. The flatness arises because there is no flexible mechanism to reduce Dissent in the way that Happiness can be improved by spending on Culture.

Suggestions:

1. Let the size of the garrison reduce Dissent (say, 15 points per unit). This is realistic, and would for the first time motivate proper defence of interior cities (not just one Archer defending an inland capital for 5200 years!), and be nicely offset by unit maintenance costs. This could better be implemented universally than as part of a redesigned Authoritarianism, in my opinion.

2. Let Espionage spending mitigate Dissent in the way that Culture spending creates Happines (say 25 points per 10%). That (and the above) could be interpreted as government spying on its own population, that is, implementing a (partial) police state. At a massive cost to Research, this approach would come with the advantage of generating more espionage points, and might also motivate experimenting with an `espionage economy'.

3. Diversify the Dissent-reducing buildings. The Civilopedia states that Dissent can be reduced by building `such as' the Constabulary and Broadcast Tower. The Palace and Forbidden Palace also contribute, yes? These 4 are then actually the only Dissent-reducing buildings, yes? Can the Civilopedia be made more precise? (Also, how exactly does Dissent vary with difficulty level?) However, of the existing Dissent-modifying buildings, it is easy to argue that a Broadcast Tower could equally increase Dissent. Isn't it more logical to use security-related buildings to reduce Dissent? The obvious choice is the Security Bureau (say 25%). Other candidates are Jail and Courthouse (for say, perhaps 10% each?).

4. Make cities abandonable. This could be implemented as making the city a gift to the Barbarians (with population included, and not as razing).


Domestic Advisor

(Bug: Some cities appear twice in the Domestic Advisor list.)

The listing of the sources of stability (negative Dissent) by the Domestic Advisor is easy to understand. I don't understand the Modifiers or the calculation. Is it correct? The calculation is the following, I believe:

Dissent per turn = Civics * (age Modifier + building Modifiers + difficulty level Modifier) - Stabilisers

It would be nice if this could be spelled out (in the Civilopedia?), and the calculation made more transparent. Or have I missed an Ethnicity `proportion of culture owned by the civ' modifier?

Suggestion:

List the various Modifier percentages in separate columns. Provide a separate column containing the resultant Civics * Modifiers points so that the calculation of the difference is obvious.


Slavery

The HR1.21 implementation of Dissent has the side effect that it makes Slavery even less attractive to run (than, in particular, Agrarianism). There is really no reason to use it at all. Given the ubiquitous historical practice of Slavery, it would be nice to rebalance the civics to make it more attractive to run. To that end: Could the Dissent cost of Slavery be changed from High to Low? Here is a justification: Whilst slaves are by definition unhappy with their situation, they don't (usually, Spartacus!) have a political voice, whilst their owners, the citizens who benefit from slavery, do.

An underlying problem remains that almost all historical civilizations have actually continuously practiced both Agrarianism and Slavery. The two aren't really mutually exclusive, and worse, neither is really a valid civic `choice' because of their ubiquitousness. (An actual choice was, late in history, to permanently abolish slavery.) Perhaps the effects of both Agrarianism and Slavery should be permanently available (Masonry permits whipping until Equal Rights, Agriculture and Pastoralism always generate production bonuses) and their use as civics choices simply removed.


Religions and Inquisitions

Non-state religions in a city contribute considerably to its Dissent, motivating civs to be strongly mono-religious via Missionaries and Inquisitors. That is, Dissent finally provides a reason to not have all possible religions in every city (and thus build all possible Temples and Monasteries in every city) and provides a reason to use Inquisitors to purge non-state religions, and these are good things. However, the effect is so strong that there is now no reason to have more than one religion in a city. All civs should become mono-religious fundamentalists, which isn't historially accurate. To address this, perhaps the negative effects of alien religions could be weakened a little.

It is also cumbersome that training Inquisitors involves running the high-Dissent civic Fundamentalism --- so the civ can best do this in a Dissent-free Golden Age.

In my test game, I used Inquisitors for the first time ever! To my surprise, the first Inquisitor of the Anunnaki Assyrians wasn't Anunnaki and didn't actually have a religion! Instead, the non-religious Inquisitor standing in a city with 2 religions (Anunnaki and Buddhism) was offered an action-choice of 2 religion icons. It was not intuitive whether clicking the Buddhism icon would result in `purge Buddhism' or `preserve Buddhism, purge something else or everything else'. Hovering over the Inquisitor icon yielded only TXT_KEY_INQUISITION_HELP.

Experiment showed that the Buddhism icon indeed meant `purge Buddhism'. However, the first 8 inquisitions in a row failed (different cities), then the following 8 succeeded. I can't prove this, because their success or failure seems to be forgotten from the Event Log, at least when the game is reloaded.


So, a Fundamentalist civilization running a particular state religion trains a religionless Inquisitor, who some time later chooses a religion to attempt to expurgate from a given city. That can include the state religion! Although there isn't a 100% chance of success, the factors determining success seem opaque. It seems strange that there is a chance of failure at all. An inquisition is after all, a rigged court. Its verdicts are predetermined.

This can be done better: For instance, let there be one Inquisitor type per religion, as per Missionaries. A civilization can only train Inquisitors of their (current) state religion. An Inquisitor will then have an action-choice of religions to purge, a choice that does not include its own religion. I see no reason for any chance of failure. For realism, the civilization must still have the same state religion of the Inquisitor and be running Fundamentalism at the time the Inquisitor is used. If it changes or abandons its state religion, any Inquisitors could quietly disappear.

It would be nice if the hard limit of 3 Missionaries at any one time were scaled with map size. Ditto for Inquisitors.
 

Attachments

Thanks for this extensive feedback!

2. All cities should build all available culture buildings to maximise culture, meaning that Stonehenge is an even greater investment than it ever was. It may occasionally be judicious to spend gold on Culture.

Making culture more important was a major goal of the dissent system.

4. Keep a close eye on the total civics-based Dissent with each new city. Cities get an age-based discount on their Dissent. Discount the discount when thinking of their Dissent.

Phase 2 (Classical Era): This is a Dissent-enforced hiatus. Do not expand! Tech to Aesthetics, and build the Mausoleum of Maussollos. Whilst building it, tech to Law and build Jails everywhere (needed for later Constabularies).

Another major goal was to limit expansion without corresponding investment in newly founded or acquired cities. The 'age-based discount' gives the player time to do this. I've always felt that early game rush tactics are ahistorical and too powerful when chained (creating leads near-impossible to avert). With dissent, a rush needs to be followed by a period of consolidation.

In my test game, sadly, during Phase 4, in 1488, after a Capitulation-Open Borders-Move Units sequence, the Assyrian empire had a sudden Collapse and I received the following window message.

Code:
Python Exception

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "CvScreensInterface", line 774, in forceScreenRedraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 1058, in redraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 2455, in updateGameDataStrings

NameError: global name `localText' is not defined

Apply the fixes from here and here. You'll be able to continue your game.

1. Let the size of the garrison reduce Dissent (say, 15 points per unit). This is realistic, and would for the first time motivate proper defence of interior cities (not just one Archer defending an inland capital for 5200 years!), and be nicely offset by unit maintenance costs. This could better be implemented universally than as part of a redesigned Authoritarianism, in my opinion.

This is already possible via the Warrior Code civic.

2. Let Espionage spending mitigate Dissent in the way that Culture spending creates Happines (say 25 points per 10%). That (and the above) could be interpreted as government spying on its own population, that is, implementing a (partial) police state. At a massive cost to Research, this approach would come with the advantage of generating more espionage points, and might also motivate experimenting with an `espionage economy'.

The Constabulary and the Courthouse already grant happiness for using the espionage slider, just like the Stadium and Broadcast Tower do for the culture slider. So this is already a way of indirectly reducing dissent.

I would like to do more with espionage in general, but sadly it's not particularly moddable. I considered tying it directly to dissent somehow, but it made things too convoluted and the AI couldn't cope. Adding importance to culture was a much more pressing need, so I went with that instead.

The Civilopedia states that Dissent can be reduced by building `such as' the Constabulary and Broadcast Tower. The Palace and Forbidden Palace also contribute, yes? These 4 are then actually the only Dissent-reducing buildings, yes? Can the Civilopedia be made more precise?

Just those 4, unless you're playing Tibet (their Gompa reduces dissent by 25%). I'll clarify that section in the pedia.

4. Make cities abandonable. This could be implemented as making the city a gift to the Barbarians (with population included, and not as razing).

That would make civil wars completely avoidable, which defeats the point.

With smart play such as you describe, civil wars can be avoided entirely. On the the lower difficulty levels at least. But that's just one way to try deal with them, and actually quite risky. The other way is let civil wars happen once in a while, then crush the rebellion or try subjugate them as a vassal. It's a setback for sure, and may not always go to plan, but remember that when each civil war happens all your non-rebelling cities are reset to stable. Better to lose a province temporarily once in a while, than have your entire civilization permanently on the brink of collapse.

Civil wars happen all throughout history, and I've deliberately designed them in HR to be somewhat inevitable. They shouldn't be too punitive unless you've severely mismanaged or overexpanded.

One thing to note is that for 1.22 I'm considering giving an ability to one of the Great People that will lower dissent by an entire level in a targeted city. Basically, a tool that can be used to buy more time before rebellion or to save a crucial city.

(Bug: Some cities appear twice in the Domestic Advisor list.)

Which ones? There is a frustrating limitation to Civ4's table code that I'm trying to figure a way around but haven't yet. It's probably the culprit here, but would be good to confirm.

The listing of the sources of stability (negative Dissent) by the Domestic Advisor is easy to understand. I don't understand the Modifiers or the calculation. Is it correct? The calculation is the following, I believe:

Dissent per turn = Civics * (age Modifier + building Modifiers + difficulty level Modifier) - Stabilisers

It would be nice if this could be spelled out (in the Civilopedia?), and the calculation made more transparent. Or have I missed an Ethnicity `proportion of culture owned by the civ' modifier?

There's actually only two factors to the modifier percentage: the ramp up over time, and reduction from buildings. The building modifiers are straightforward, a city with a Palace and a Constabulary would have 100% - 50% - 25% = 25%. That initial 100% is what's modified by the ramp up over time though. The formula for that is (roughly):

-100 + (Turns * 100 / (25 * Speed))

Turns = the number of turns since a city was added to the civilization
Speed = a numerical value represent game speed setting (1 = Quick, 6 = Odyssey)​

The net effect is that you get half an era before a city starts producing its full dissent, regardless of game speed.

There's no separate nationality modifier, it's included in the culture value: (-25 * CultureLevel) + (-1 * NationalityPercent).

Difficulty scaling is actually a fixed amount added to the dissent rating of each civic. So, for example, a Medium dissent civic will produce 17 dissent on Noble, but 20 dissent on Emperor. Dissent from all civics is totalled and modified by number of cities and mapsize. However, it looks like I disabled mapsize scaling for testing at some point and neglected to re-enable it before release.... I'll get that fixed.


The HR1.21 implementation of Dissent has the side effect that it makes Slavery even less attractive to run (than, in particular, Agrarianism). There is really no reason to use it at all. Given the ubiquitous historical practice of Slavery, it would be nice to rebalance the civics to make it more attractive to run. To that end: Could the Dissent cost of Slavery be changed from High to Low? Here is a justification: Whilst slaves are by definition unhappy with their situation, they don't (usually, Spartacus!) have a political voice, whilst their owners, the citizens who benefit from slavery, do.

Whipping is still a very strong mechanic, even with dissent attached. I hear from people who think it needs to be toned down, and from people who think it needs to be made stronger, in pretty equal measure. Tells me it's balanced about right. I'll think about it though.

An underlying problem remains that almost all historical civilizations have actually continuously practiced both Agrarianism and Slavery. The two aren't really mutually exclusive, and worse, neither is really a valid civic `choice' because of their ubiquitousness. (An actual choice was, late in history, to permanently abolish slavery.) Perhaps the effects of both Agrarianism and Slavery should be permanently available (Masonry permits whipping until Equal Rights, Agriculture and Pastoralism always generate production bonuses) and their use as civics choices simply removed.

That's just the nature of civics, they're never going to fully capture the multifaceted nature of historical governance and society. Exclusive choices make for interesting gameplay.

Non-state religions in a city contribute considerably to its Dissent, motivating civs to be strongly mono-religious via Missionaries and Inquisitors. That is, Dissent finally provides a reason to not have all possible religions in every city (and thus build all possible Temples and Monasteries in every city) and provides a reason to use Inquisitors to purge non-state religions, and these are good things. However, the effect is so strong that there is now no reason to have more than one religion in a city. All civs should become mono-religious fundamentalists, which isn't historially accurate. To address this, perhaps the negative effects of alien religions could be weakened a little.

The system of Tenets (religious civics) coming in 1.22 will address this. There's an entire tenet category called 'Tolerance', which deals with how a civilization can treat non-state and foreign religions.

It is also cumbersome that training Inquisitors involves running the high-Dissent civic Fundamentalism --- so the civ can best do this in a Dissent-free Golden Age.

In 1.22, Fundamentalism will be a tenet instead of a civic. Tenets will not have a dissent rating, eliminating this problem.

It was not intuitive whether clicking the Buddhism icon would result in `purge Buddhism' or `preserve Buddhism, purge something else or everything else'. Hovering over the Inquisitor icon yielded only TXT_KEY_INQUISITION_HELP.

Caused by a broken text link, shall fix. I intend to make a set of purge religion buttons for the Inquistor (probably just the religion's symbol with a cross through it), but haven't got around to it yet.

This can be done better: For instance, let there be one Inquisitor type per religion, as per Missionaries. A civilization can only train Inquisitors of their (current) state religion. An Inquisitor will then have an action-choice of religions to purge, a choice that does not include its own religion.

A single Inquisitor was considerably easier to implement, and there isn't enough art available to justify making one for each religion. Being able to purge your state religion is a bug, fixed already for 1.22.

I see no reason for any chance of failure.

It's a leftover mechanic from earlier versions when foreign inquisitions were possible and inquisitors didn't require Fundamentalism. I agree it's no longer needed.

For realism, the civilization must still have the same state religion of the Inquisitor and be running Fundamentalism at the time the Inquisitor is used. If it changes or abandons its state religion, any Inquisitors could quietly disappear.

I'll set it so they automatically disband if you switch away from Fundamentalism. I could do that for a change of state religion too, but it feels less necessary. Will think about it.

It would be nice if the hard limit of 3 Missionaries at any one time were scaled with map size. Ditto for Inquisitors.

I agree. Will implement in 1.22.
 
(Bug: Some cities appear twice in the Domestic Advisor list.)

Which ones? There is a frustrating limitation to Civ4's table code that I'm trying to figure a way around but haven't yet. It's probably the culprit here, but would be
good to confirm.

An example is in the attached save game. I don't see a pattern as to which cities are duplicated - not all conquered cities, for instance.


Also: Clicking on the city name in the Domestic Advisor doesn't open the city screen.
 
An underlying problem remains that almost all historical civilizations have actually continuously practiced both Agrarianism and Slavery. The two aren't really
mutually exclusive, and worse, neither is really a valid civic `choice' because of their ubiquitousness. (An actual choice was, late in history, to permanently abolish
slavery.) Perhaps the effects of both Agrarianism and Slavery should be permanently available (Masonry permits whipping until Equal Rights, Agriculture and Pastoralism
always generate production bonuses) and their use as civics choices simply removed.

That's just the nature of civics, they're never going to fully capture the multifaceted nature of historical governance and society. Exclusive choices make for
interesting gameplay

My claim is that because these two were historically inevitable, they do not warrant being civics choices. They never arose historically by management decisions in the way that most of the other existing civics options did. The remaining civics options are things that were historical choices (and their exclusivity makes for interesting gameplay!).
 
Which ones? There is a frustrating limitation to Civ4's table code that I'm trying to figure a way around but haven't yet. It's probably the culprit here, but would be good to confirm.
The one time I remember it happening to me was after one of my cities was conquered. The city above it was listed twice until I recaptured it.
 
An example is in the attached save game. I don't see a pattern as to which cities are duplicated - not all conquered cities, for instance.

The one time I remember it happening to me was after one of my cities was conquered. The city above it was listed twice until I recaptured it.

Investigating this at the moment. It's very strange because it's not just that these cities are duplicated in the list, they're actually replacing other cities. Total number of cities in the list is accurate.

Also: Clicking on the city name in the Domestic Advisor doesn't open the city screen.

Intended. Selecting a city in the list displays a button in the lower right that can be used to open its city screen.

My claim is that because these two were historically inevitable, they do not warrant being civics choices. They never arose historically by management decisions in the way that most of the other existing civics options did. The remaining civics options are things that were historical choices (and their exclusivity makes for interesting gameplay!).

Slavery wasn't inevitable, plenty of historical civilizations never had slavery or anything similar. Agrarianism was widespread, but not necessarily as a source of non-agricultural public labour (corvée labour). Compare New Kingdom Egypt and classical Greece: both had farmers, both had slaves, but in Egypt of that period it was state-owned slaves who laboured on public works, while in Greece it was the duty of the citizen-farmers (their privately-owned slaves often ran the farm in the master's absence).
 
Hi there. Yes it worked to reinstall the mod. Unfortunately then my computer got broken for other reasons and I didn't get to try out the mod much. About the dissent function it's one of my favourite features so far but ofcourse there is plenty of room for improvement. Mostly I 'd like to see three things. Choices for dealing with dissent directly, ability to let rebels secede peacefully and some randomness to make it less predictable. I was thinking choices could be, stomping out dissent (like sacrificing population and local level of dissent is thrown back into stable, but ). Or you could grant local autonomy and then buildings and units cost much more and you get much less money/science from the city but the city returns to stable. Ofcourse neither option, will stop dissent from accumulate. It's just a way to delay the inevitable. And spies should be able to increase dissent in a city aswell.
 
Hi there. Yes it worked to reinstall the mod. Unfortunately then my computer got broken for other reasons and I didn't get to try out the mod much.

Glad to hear you got it running. Hope your computer issues weren't too expensive!

Choices for dealing with dissent directly.

I agree there needs to be some options here. For the next version I'm looking at giving one of the Great People an ability to lower the dissent level of a targeted city.

ability to let rebels secede peacefully

This is something I've wondered about. I don't think it should be an option before a civil war happens (exploitable, AI won't understand), but rebels' attitudes to their former civilization could afford to be much more varied and have a wider array of diplomatic/international repercussions than currently. Seeking peaceful independence could be one such possibility.

and some randomness to make it less predictable.

Because civil wars can be a substantial setback to a civilization, I think predictability is important. My goal was to make it reasonably easy to track and predict when they're likely to happen; the element of randomness comes instead from how extensive they are, which cities rebel, new civ or not, effect on diplomacy, etc.

I was thinking choices could be, stomping out dissent (like sacrificing population and local level of dissent is thrown back into stable).

The Authoritarianism and Slavery civics allow something similar already, indirectly via happiness. I prefer to use existing mechanics like these than to introduce new ones.

Or you could grant local autonomy and then buildings and units cost much more and you get much less money/science from the city but the city returns to stable.

That's an interesting idea, but a very complex one to implement. I'm not sure I could get the AI to use it effectively.

And spies should be able to increase dissent in a city aswell.

I originally wanted spies/espionage and dissent to be interconnected, but I was thwarted by the fact that the espionage system isn't particularly moddable in BTS. Might make a good ability for Great Spies though, will have a think about it.
 
With randomness I was thinking something in line with fluctuations in dissent that aren't particularily big. Say 5% fluctuations. Not willy nilly sudden civil wars out of nowhere. So one turn you get 97 dissent the next 104 and so on. This way you'll know a civil war is approaching but unless in the very near future you cannot predict the exact turn it will happen, you'll still have a ballpark idea wether it's within the next 15 or next 50 turns.
 
With randomness I was thinking something in line with fluctuations in dissent that aren't particularily big. Say 5% fluctuations. Not willy nilly sudden civil wars out of nowhere. So one turn you get 97 dissent the next 104 and so on. This way you'll know a civil war is approaching but unless in the very near future you cannot predict the exact turn it will happen, you'll still have a ballpark idea wether it's within the next 15 or next 50 turns.

Such randomness already exists, without the need to vary dissent. Once a city reaches Rebellious, there's a chance a civil war will occur, it's not guaranteed (yet). The further over the rebellious threshold, the higher the chance. The more cites over the threshold, the more chances there are. On normal gamespeed the chance per city is 1% for every 5 dissent over the threshold. I prefer this approach because you know when you're going to reach the danger zone, but never which turn it's going to trigger.
 
...Mostly I 'd like to see three things. Choices for dealing with dissent directly, ability to let rebels secede peacefully...

You can already let rebellious cities secede by making them a colony.

I was thinking choices could be, stomping out dissent (like sacrificing population and local level of dissent is thrown back into stable, but ).

You can change your civics to slavery to sacrifice the rebellious citizens, or coerce them into order with Authoritarianism and an armed garrison.

Or you could grant local autonomy and then buildings and units cost much more and you get much less money/science from the city but the city returns to stable. Of course neither option, will stop dissent from accumulate. It's just a way to delay the inevitable. And spies should be able to increase dissent in a city aswell.

I imagine this would be implemented just like the annexed territories in Civ V, code willing.

...For the next version I'm looking at giving one of the Great People an ability to lower the dissent level of a targeted city.

I believe Great Generals would fit thematically (and historically.) Giving the Great Spy the ability to quell domestic dissent and increase foreign dissent would be a nice addition also. Maybe the effect would multiply with every 5% of your culture within that city... I'm sure plenty here would follow in Putin's footsteps ;)

Maybe just the presence of a foreign spy in a city would increase dissent? Seems simple enough to code?
 
I originally wanted spies/espionage and dissent to be interconnected, but I was thwarted by the fact that the espionage system isn't particularly moddable in BTS.

Another bad news for me. And i was hoping for bribe barbarian party.

1. For all sory for me lame EN.

It will be some civic and trail that deling whit dissent? OR it will be stand on culture?
Or make standing unit disabling the city become barbarian. But the standing unit will be damaged per turn.
Untill the revolution come and the unit withdraw to nearest city.
And now the main part, its easy to crash wariors whit heavy horsemans when city rebel withou garising unit in him.
Its not funny if i forget about my ultra elities, or 50 units. (Ps: never forget. ... Yet.)

Somthin else thats Bothering me: They say civil war, batle everivhere. And its only 2-3, from 30 cities.

Will be there some way how it become full rebelion that will be not obliberated in few turns?

Some island cities is realy pain in ass rebeling every 20 turns after concvering. All bulding lost angain. (PS: Thats when i play small map and dint use culture so well.)

Thats next. Will be there some civic trail tat will decrase the losses of bulding in cities?

Are you thing about random events in way. That will be easier editable for you?

I notice that AI start golden era only from unique national wonder and wonders. Never use unique person to do it. (Dint make it to Equal Rights) (Playing on Hardest and Saga)

Now i make a idea. The naval unit have ability blocade and atack nearby unit. Will be that able to flak atack incoming/pasing naval units?

Ps: Dint test 1.22
 
Slavery wasn't inevitable, plenty of historical civilizations never had slavery or anything similar. Agrarianism was widespread, but not necessarily as a source of non-agricultural public labour (corvée labour). Compare New Kingdom Egypt and classical Greece: both had farmers, both had slaves, but in Egypt of that period it was state-owned slaves who laboured on public works, while in Greece it was the duty of the citizen-farmers (their privately-owned slaves often ran the farm in the master's absence).

I see the distinction! The Slavery civic then means something more like `Organised Slavery'. I can imagine that all civs quietly have house slaves regardless of Labour civics.

Thinking about this leads me to something else:

I've always felt that early game rush tactics are ahistorical and too powerful when chained (creating leads near-impossible to avert). With dissent, a rush needsto be followed by a period of consolidation.

I agree. Rolling early rushes are certainly ahistorical and it is good to have a counterbalance to them.

I now think that my Assyrians made a wrong choice in their first period of consolidation. The rational choice for a civ that has reached a Dissent cap but whose military is still superior is not to keep its soldiers in their barracks but to plunder and exterminate the peoples around it, whilst consolidating the gains in other ways. Genocide is certainly historical, but being the one who implements it can make one queasy. (A person playing History should get over this!)

It would perhaps be more historically realistic (and conscience-easing) if razing cities yielded slaves (ahem, Workers), say at one Worker per unit of population (minus 1), and that Whipping required Workers (own or captured) rather than population. One could possibly sacrifice an entire Worker population to build the Pyramids, but the cost in later undeveloped terrain would be high.
 
I believe Great Generals would fit thematically (and historically.)

Great Generals make the most thematic sense, but there might be AI issues since they're not normally sent to cities. If I can't make it work satisfactorily, Great Artists (propaganda) are my backup plan.

Giving the Great Spy the ability to quell domestic dissent and increase foreign dissent would be a nice addition also. Maybe the effect would multiply with every 5% of your culture within that city... I'm sure plenty here would follow in Putin's footsteps ;)

Not given any thought to how it might work, but it would be a foreign effect only.

Maybe just the presence of a foreign spy in a city would increase dissent? Seems simple enough to code?

Simple to implement, but potentially unbalanced. AI would never be as good as using it as the human player. An instant dissent increase via the Great Spy is a much more manageable option.

Another bad news for me. And i was hoping for bribe barbarian party.

It's something I may look at again in the future. Too big a task to try in the context of 1.21 or 1.22.

It will be some civic and trail that deling whit dissent? OR it will be stand on culture? Or make standing unit disabling the city become barbarian. But the standing unit will be damaged per turn.

The Authoritarianism civic can be used to lower dissent by stacking units in cities. Might yet change, but one of the Tenets (religious civics) I'm designing for 1.22 will provide dissent reduction.

And now the main part, its easy to crash wariors whit heavy horsemans when city rebel without garising unit in him.

Cities that go barbarian aren't meant to be to be too hard to crush, but those that become new civs should be more durable.

Somthin else thats Bothering me: They say civil war, batle everivhere. And its only 2-3, from 30 cities.

Will be there some way how it become full rebelion that will be not obliberated in few turns?

When a city rebels, the chance other unsettled cities will join the rebellion is reduced by distance. I think this mitigation effect may be set a bit too strong, making larger rebellions rarer than they should be, especially on larger map sizes. I'll review it.

Will be there some civic trail tat will decrase the losses of bulding in cities?

Civil war doesn't destroy any buildings by itself, but reconquering the city can, just like conquering a foreign city. It's not possible to code a reduction of these losses without reducing them for all conquest.

Are you thing about random events in way. That will be easier editable for you?

Easy to edit, but tedious. Events are on my list of things to work on, but I keep procrastinating.

I notice that AI start golden era only from unique national wonder and wonders. Never use unique person to do it. (Dint make it to Equal Rights) (Playing on Hardest and Saga)

I haven't noticed that, has anyone else? With the new buildings and some boosted great specialist stats it makes sense that the AI would be using great people for Golden Ages a bit less, but shouldn't be never. I'll investigate.

Now i make a idea. The naval unit have ability blocade and atack nearby unit. Will be that able to flak atack incoming/pasing naval units?

Not possible to code without a massive reduction in performance, sorry.

It would perhaps be more historically realistic (and conscience-easing) if razing cities yielded slaves (ahem, Workers), say at one Worker per unit of population (minus 1), and that Whipping required Workers (own or captured) rather than population. One could possibly sacrifice an entire Worker population to build the Pyramids, but the cost in later undeveloped terrain would be high.

Way beyond what the AI is capable of, I'm afraid.
 
Got this error alert the first time I opened the BUG interface. After that it seemed to work normally. (Already applied the three patches from the Troubleshooting thread.)
 

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Got this error alert the first time I opened the BUG interface. After that it seemed to work normally. (Already applied the three patches from the Troubleshooting thread.)

Caused by a bit of code I missed when I was deBUGging. Should only happen once and won't cause any harm. I'll fix it for 1.22.
 
Currently I'm pretty much checking my city-advisor screen every turn to check that dissent isn't too widespread and increasing too fast. It would be nice with some kind of icon on the map, like there is for a bunch of other things. Say a colored arrow up or down, with the color telling what level of dissent the city is at and the arrow wether it's increasing or decreasing.
 
Currently I'm pretty much checking my city-advisor screen every turn to check that dissent isn't too widespread and increasing too fast. It would be nice with some kind of icon on the map, like there is for a bunch of other things. Say a colored arrow up or down, with the color telling what level of dissent the city is at and the arrow wether it's increasing or decreasing.

Unfortunately, I can't add symbols to cities' name plates without DLL changes. I agree that some sort of main map display would be helpful, but I'm not sure how best to do it. Adding to the wishlist.
 
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