1.74 Beta's Initial Impressions?

[szemek77]

i wanted to keep the damage system as it was what many wanted due to realism and intended to turn it into a playable version.

Got your point.

the "within/outside cultural borders" is intended to prevent dump AI behavior. it will surely send its troops trough deserts with roads on its into the battle. so at least for defense purposes there shouldn't be a penalty (otherwise the player will have a too easy time finishing off half dead troops). it's also a kind of defender bonus and may represent that cultures living in hostile terrain are better adapted to it.

Questionable. Simplier sollution: dangerous terrain with road should cause no damage, no matter what. Please keep in mind, that defenders already have some bonus within their cultural borders, cause they can move much faster than invader.

Anyway, I'd stick with my proposal

 

[Killtech]

Questionable. Simplier sollution: dangerous terrain with road should cause no damage, no matter what. Please keep in mind, that defenders already have some bonus within their cultural borders, cause they can move much faster than invader.

AI has a quite a tendency to build polar cities. it would be bad if AI can't move troops out of such or is unable to send any reinforcements to them if they're besieged. thus cultural borders must enable free movement for military.

also there shouldn't be any penalty if moving through dangerous terrain in own territory if it has a road. otherwise the many AIs patrolling units will be damage without any need. and since the AI always sends units on patrol within borders that it doesn't need for defense this means a major weakening of its troops contingent.

so this are the boundary conditions that must be fulfilled if the damage system should remain as an AND feature.

 

[Khoukharev]

what I disliked is that AI civs started founding new cities between mine or run through my territory and found new cities there. this means those cities are cut off from their territory, hence revolt and so on. it would be ok if they had nowhere to settle, but that's not true. it's more like they were trying to encircle me, but in the end they only lost about 3 cities due to revolts.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

To start I should say I am playing with only the basic AND with only the mountains and early buildings extensions. No Better Rom. Fixed boarders on.

I really, really like the attrition/terrain damage feature. Although there is room for improvement here.

1. Kiltech's suggestion may improve things but I have had two cases of getting a warrior from a goodie hut which it will not help. First the warrior was spawned in tundra and died before I could get it to non hostile terrain. The second was one hostile terrain away from my civ and in Kiltech's suggestion, there would be no way to get it home.
2. I had an explorer with 2*mtn and 2*forest promotions. It could travel through hostile arctic territory without problems. Until it got damaged in an encounter with a wolf. After that it suffered terrain damage until I moved it out of the tundra.
3. I have a huge boarder which is tundra. Barbarians spawned there are dieing before they reach my boarder.

 

[Zarstorm]

Hello!
Afforess, I first have to congratulate you on awesome job you are doing

About 1.74 Beta, it is big step forward, I think. obviously terrain damage need some work, but is great idea nevertheless. I think that chopping forests and jungles from start is not good idea. Burning them makes sense, but it is not good for gameplay - I actually think that chopping jungles needs to be pushed later, much later. Civs that start in jungles should really be in problem in first half of game - I think that is historicaly accurate, after all there is no great civilization that emerged from jungles, right?
And I think there is small bug - I have an option of builidng apple orchard on forest tile without any resource (?). Also is funny when you build apple orchard on lemon / olive resource, but that is only name change...

 

[Afforess]

I think that chopping forests and jungles from start is not good idea. Burning them makes sense, but it is not good for gameplay - I actually think that chopping jungles needs to be pushed later, much later. Civs that start in jungles should really be in problem in first half of game - I think that is historicaly accurate, after all there is no great civilization that emerged from jungles, right?

There are a couple: The Amazonians, The Mayas, parts of the Aztecs (although, for the most part they were north of the jungles), parts of the Incas... I'm sure I'm forgetting some important ones...

Anyway, the point of the mechanic is to make sure that Jungle starts aren't screwed over. You don't get any production from it, and historically, burning and clearing forests often happen to make way for new farmland. The AI seems to handle it exceptionally well, so I'm not going to change it any time soon.

And I think there is small bug - I have an option of builidng apple orchard on forest tile without any resource (?). Also is funny when you build apple orchard on lemon / olive resource, but that is only name change...

No, it's just the Orchard now, and it can be placed on any forested tile, and has a chance of spawning apples and lemons.

 

[Killtech]

[...]Burning them makes sense, but it is not good for gameplay - I actually think that chopping jungles needs to be pushed later, much later. Civs that start in jungles should really be in problem in first half of game - I think that is historicaly accurate, after all there is no great civilization that emerged from jungles, right?

except for american and asian civilizations. as long as there is a plant that grows in the region and serves the purpose of staple food to support a large population organizing in cities civilizations will bloom. this was the corn for the american civilizations, rice for the asians and bad luck for africa.

if you check the history of azetechs, mayans and many other mesoamerican indian civilizations you will find that the jungle never was a problem. nor did the jungle hinder the khmer. your claim is historically incorrect. jungle was only a problem for european civilizations conquering these regions.

as for the gameplay the forest/jungle burning is a helpful element. it makes snail games more interesting at the start. however the early disappearing of the forests is somewhat uncomfortable though not unrealistic. after all europe has nearly no woods left in the medieval age and all large animals were gone. but then the plague came and as the population decreased and many areas were abandoned the forest and nature claimed them back pretty quickly. this massive ability of nature to recover is not implemented in civilization so far.

 

[climat]

There is global warming problem also.
Raising forest/jungle spawn rate might be needed.

 

[Killtech]

There is global warming problem also.
Raising forest/jungle spawn rate might be needed.

there is a concept in my mind... i think it's worth a new thread...

 

[Afforess]

Agree, Please start one.

 

[Zarstorm]

if you check the history of azetechs, mayans and many other mesoamerican indian civilizations you will find that the jungle never was a problem. nor did the jungle hinder the khmer. your claim is historically incorrect. jungle was only a problem for european civilizations conquering these regions.

Well, maybe, but I still finds that removing a jungle in 4000BC somewhat unrealistic. At least removing it that easily - maybe it should take longer, or consume worker in process to simulate burning - I am kidding. You are right, jungle didn't hinder Khmers or Mayas, but they didn't chop all of it also, correct? I just think that removing a jungle should be damn hard work, at least until later in the game... On the other side, from a game balance point, I guess it makes sense.

 

[Killtech]

Well, maybe, but I still finds that removing a jungle in 4000BC somewhat unrealistic. At least removing it that easily - maybe it should take longer, or consume worker in process to simulate burning - I am kidding. You are right, jungle didn't hinder Khmers or Mayas, but they didn't chop all of it also, correct? I just think that removing a jungle should be damn hard work, at least until later in the game... On the other side, from a game balance point, I guess it makes sense.

they cleared much more area then one would imagine. example angkor of the khmer:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...it_mit_Karte.jpg&filetimestamp=20050917072354
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Angkor-Wat-from-the-air.JPG
this and the very large area surrounding it was widely deforested and habited many satellite villages and farm area.

its not hard to destroy large areas of jungle. you just need the population for this that is need of farmland. based on this idea (population ~ worked tiles) i've opened a new thread about the forest/jungle problem with a solution concept. feel free to comment.

 

[Zarstorm]

they cleared much more area then one would imagine. example angkor of the khmer:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...it_mit_Karte.jpg&filetimestamp=20050917072354
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Angkor-Wat-from-the-air.JPG
this and the very large area surrounding it was widely deforested and habited many satellite villages and farm area.

its not hard to destroy large areas of jungle. you just need the population for this that is need of farmland. based on this idea (population ~ worked tiles) i've opened a new thread about the forest/jungle problem with a solution concept. feel free to comment.

Yes, I see Anyway, with that concept in your new thread, this question will be solved. And when I think about it, it do make perfect sense.

edit: About improvments - for me they are better in Beta. However, I still think that some improvments needs little balancing - or they can be removed... For example, I almost never build watermills - they simple don't have enough benefits to build them - it is better to build farms if you want food, workshops if you want production. Or lumbermills - does anyone use them? I think that they should be little improved to make people use them more often. But to be honest, my knowledge of civilization is not so great, so I may be missing some important detail / use about them - in that case, forget about it